What events in the Bible did not actually occur?

[GodsGrace]

I am of the opinion that when Eve fell, the affects of the fall upon her were evident to Adam. In other words, not only did he know she disobeyed God, but he saw the affects of death in her already.

Eve was singularly in the most dangerous position a person could ever be. She was fallen. But her head, Adam, was not. The human race was not yet fallen. Adam legally could have turned to God and said 'this woman has disobeyed you and she wants me to disobey you. But I won't. Make me another woman.' Then Eve would be lost forever.

The problem: Adam loved Eve. He didn't want another woman. He wanted that one. And remember, Adam knew God. And he knew that if he fell with Eve, that God was going to get him back. And whatever it took to get Adam back, would get Eve back also.

Some may disagree with that, but that is exactly what happened. And isn't Adam a figure of Christ Who is to come? (Rom. 5:14) And didn't Christ take on a fallen condition to deliver His bride the Church? I believe so.

Quantrill

I can agree with what you've said above
EXCEPT when you state:
"but that is exactly what happened".

Your explanation is a good one, but no one can be sure of exactly
what happened.

We know only what is written and should not add anything else, except
to note what our OPINION might be.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm referring to the fact that Eve died. Had Adam not disobeyed and asked God to heal Eve, the only healing would still have been a substitute. A life for a life.

As I said the sentence of death had fallen.

Who at that time would have been a substitute? Adam gave himself for Eve. But that is all he could do.

God did in fact bring healing and life through the Last Adam who gave Himself for His bride also. But because God identified all of the human race fallen in one, Adam, then so can many be saved through One, Christ.

This is why the belief that Adam and Eve were just nice 'stories' is false and dangerous. If Adam didn't really exist, then Christ cannot die for all. He can only die for one. And who is the lucky one?

Concerning (Matt. 26:39), yes, of course. The only way of redemption for mankind was the way God did it. No other way would have worked. It not only made man righteous in the sight of God, but it satisfied God's righteousness also. (Rom. 3:26)

Quantrill

Agreed.

And now on to post no. 95 --- the last.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, it is you who first brought up the idea of Adam asking God to heal Eve. Not I. See post #(78).

My explanation of what may well have been involved is given in post #(76) and (87).

As to 'substitution' the whole idea is that the substitute is a proper substitute. Even though the animal sacrifices atoned for sin, they did not remove sin. They pointed to the true Sacrifice to come.

When any brought their animal sacrifice, a sin offering, they killed the animal and spilled it's blood. And so (Lev. 17:11) tells us that the life of the flesh is in the blood. That is the whole point of the blood. When you see the blood spilled out on the ground, the sacrifice has exchanged it's life for yours.

A life for a life. One for one.

There is no healing, no access to eternal life save through that.

The problem: How can one man die for all and God be justified in doing so.

Solution: God counts all guilty in one man. God now counts all righteous in One Man. (Federal Headship)

Understand, once sin had entered into the human race, God, because He is God, could not just overlook it. His righteousness would not allow it. He could not just look down at Adam and Eve and say "yall sure messed that up. But, I love yall so much that I'm going to let yall come into my presence anyway and live forever." He could not do it. The moment they would have entered His presence He must judge them, and kill them.

The difficulty of the salvation problem lay in God being justified in justifying you and I. I believe I mentioned (Rom. 3:26) already.

Does that help?

Quantrill

Agreed on the above too.
I also agree with the Federal Headship theory --
there are others but they don't come to mind right now.
However, it seems to me that if Adam caused all of us to fall, the Headship would be correct.

I think we agree.
There's a lot to learn from the story of Adam and Eve...
but we can't make anything up on our own that is not there.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why then didn't Jesus mention the name of the beggar?
Or list from whom either were descended?
Or their place of residence?

Are you serious Hopeful?
You mean because Jesus didn't tell the story the way YOU
would have liked it to be told,,,it makes it unacceptable?
You can believe it's just a parable,,, I won't spend mush time
arguing this with you...but Matthew 27:51 has something to do
with this story. Do you know what it is?

BTW,,,you forgot that Jesus didn't give their phone number.
LOL

 

[Hopeful]

Are you serious Hopeful?
You mean because Jesus didn't tell the story the way YOU
would have liked it to be told,,,it makes it unacceptable?

I have no preference of whether it was a made up story or factual history.
But those who do say the events actually did happen have created false doctrines based on the "history".
Specifically: we will be able to see and communicate with the damned, can ask for things from hell, will have more chances after death, and worst of all, that the final judgement of men has already happened.

You can believe it's just a parable,,, I won't spend mush time
arguing this with you...but Matthew 27:51 has something to do
with this story. Do you know what it is?

No arguments are necessary, as we are just sharing our POVs.
What do you see in Matt 27:51 that impacts this parable?

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no preference of whether it was a made up story or factual history.
But those who do say the events actually did happen have created false doctrines based on the "history".
Specifically: we will be able to see and communicate with the damned, can ask for things from hell, will have more chances after death, and worst of all, that the final judgement of men has already happened.

I'm not familiar with any false doctrines.
We will not be able to communicate with the damned...I don't know any denomination that teaches this.
(Doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
We cannot ask for things from hell because who should we ask? Satan? Yeah, he'll be thrilled to give us our wishes.
After death...no more chances. It is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement.
The FINAL JUDGEMENT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED!!!
Where was I???
LOL
You mean, there are churches that teach this stuff?

No arguments are necessary, as we are just sharing our POVs.
What do you see in Matt 27:51 that impacts this parable?

Persons that were headed for heaven waited in Abraham's Bossom (Luke 16) and were comforted,,,
but they could not enter into heaven because Jesus had not gone to the cross yet.

After the cross, the curtain was torn open...now everyone had access to the Holy of Holies.
Those that were awaiting the cross were released from Abraham's Bossom and went to heaven.
Those that were damned had already been judged and went to where they belonged.
I hope you know about this....

 

[Serving Zion]

As to James 5:20,,,if everyone that is in error is a lost soul....
most Christians will be lost.

Absolutely, and it stands to reason doesn't it? "does a man pick figs from thorn bushes?".

SZ...James 5:20 is after a list of things we are to do to be good Christians.
It says that if we return A SINNER to the truth, we will save a soul.

A sinner means someone that has returned to a life of sin.
We are called (when possible) to go after a lamb that has gone astray and attempt to bring him back
to the fold.

Yes, that is true.. and also a person who has gone into sin for the first time (not "returned" to it) also can be called a sinner.

This says nothing about possession, or a person having incorrect doctrine being lost.

It was given as a statement for a purpose upon the assumed understanding that any person who is on the side of error has been taken captive by the deceiver (ie "possessed" by a demon). You could consider 1 John 4:6 as it pertains to the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely, and it stands to reason doesn't it? "does a man pick figs from thorn bushes?".

What exactly do you mean by "error"?
Do you mean a life of sinning..an incorrect doctrine?
What?

Yes, that is true.. and also a person who has gone into sin for the first time (not "returned" to it) also can be called a sinner.

Agreed.

It was given as a statement for a purpose upon the assumed understanding that any person who is on the side of error has been taken captive by the deceiver (ie "possessed" by a demon). You could consider 1 John 4:6 as it pertains to the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Oh. Well I wasn't speaking about "possessed" in quotation marks.
When someone speaks of possession,,,I think of real possession.

As to 1 John 4:6....yes, please explain what you mean by error or by spirits (of error).

1 John 4:6
6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

 

[Quantrill]

I can agree with what you've said above
EXCEPT when you state:
"but that is exactly what happened".

Your explanation is a good one, but no one can be sure of exactly
what happened.

We know only what is written and should not add anything else, except
to note what our OPINION might be.

But, we can know that is exactly what happened.

In other words, Eve ate and died. Correct? Adam was not dead, and didn't have to eat. Correct? The human race had not fallen in Eve. Correct? But he, Adam, ate anyway. Correct? Adam was not deceived. Correct? Adam went into a fallen state with Eve anyway. Correct?

So, God moved to save Adam and his offspring which would be the 'sons of God'. And that move also results in Eve being saved also. Because Adam didn't want another women. He wanted Eve.

When I say that is exactly what happened, I mean that is exactly what happened. Whether you or others agree with what Adam was thinking is immaterial. That is what happened. God moved to save and so Eve was saved in that process.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

But, we can know that is exactly what happened.

In other words, Eve ate and died. Correct? Adam was not dead, and didn't have to eat. Correct? The human race had not fallen in Eve. Correct? But he, Adam, ate anyway. Correct? Adam was not deceived. Correct? Adam went into a fallen state with Eve anyway. Correct?

Yes...this is all correct.

So, God moved to save Adam and his offspring which would be the 'sons of God'. And that move also results in Eve being saved also. Because Adam didn't want another women. He wanted Eve.

HOW did God move to save Adam and Eve?
You mean salvation economy/soteriology?

I have heard the theory (I think I told you this) that Adam listened to Eve because he realized what she had done and did
not want her to be alone.

You're right that Eve was deceived but not Adam...Adam knew what he was doing because HE is the one that had made the covenant with God. (The Edenic Covenant).

When I say that is exactly what happened, I mean that is exactly what happened. Whether you or others agree with what Adam was thinking is immaterial. That is what happened. God moved to save and so Eve was saved in that process.

Quantrill

God moved to save....right.

What we cannot be sure about is the REASON that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit.
We cannot know what was in his mind...his thought process.

There is also the theory that Adam did not see Eve "die" (physically) and so he thought it would be
OK to eat the fruit.

I believe we just can't know...
but you're right...this is not something we can debate.
But your ideas are traditional Christian ideas.

 

[Serving Zion]

What exactly do you mean by "error"?

It is the state of being aligned to wrongness and therefore opposed to the truth.

Do you mean a life of sinning..an incorrect doctrine?

Those things are evidence of the spirit of error.

Oh. Well I wasn't speaking about "possessed" in quotation marks.
When someone speaks of possession,,,I think of real possession.

You really need to explain the difference. As you can see, I have not suggested that there are different types of possession that a demon has of a person. They either are in possession of the spirit of God or of a deceiver.

As to 1 John 4:6....yes, please explain what you mean by error or by spirits (of error).

1 John 4:6
6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

You'll see it often enough whenever there are people who do not listen to the things we say, but instead are intent on disagreeing regardless of what we say. They are the ones who do not love the truth, and the reason for that is that they are of a disposition to error that takes over their thinking so that it is impossible to reason with them. If they were of the spirit of truth, and although we are seeing things differently, we would be working together toward a common agreement in conclusion of our conversation. That can only happen when we listen to each other and identify the cause of the disagreement and address that. Consider 1 Corinthians 8:1 in that context. Love has the effect of building-up the body of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm not familiar with any false doctrines.
We will not be able to communicate with the damned...I don't know any denomination that teaches this.
(Doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
We cannot ask for things from hell because who should we ask? Satan? Yeah, he'll be thrilled to give us our wishes.
After death...no more chances. It is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement.
The FINAL JUDGEMENT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED!!!
Where was I???
LOL
You mean, there are churches that teach this stuff?

Yes, and they base their teaching on Jesus' parable of the rich man beseeching Abraham for favor.

Persons that were headed for heaven waited in Abraham's Bossom (Luke 16) and were comforted,,,
but they could not enter into heaven because Jesus had not gone to the cross yet.
After the cross, the curtain was torn open...now everyone had access to the Holy of Holies.
Those that were awaiting the cross were released from Abraham's Bossom and went to heaven.
Those that were damned had already been judged and went to where they belonged.
I hope you know about this....

It seems you are familiar with "churches that teach this stuff".
Why would the dead be able to see, speak, or ask favor from others who cannot see speak or answer?

 

[Quantrill]

Yes...this is all correct.



HOW did God move to save Adam and Eve?
You mean salvation economy/soteriology?

I have heard the theory (I think I told you this) that Adam listened to Eve because he realized what she had done and did
not want her to be alone.

You're right that Eve was deceived but not Adam...Adam knew what he was doing because HE is the one that had made the covenant with God. (The Edenic Covenant).


God moved to save....right.

What we cannot be sure about is the REASON that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit.
We cannot know what was in his mind...his thought process.

There is also the theory that Adam did not see Eve "die" (physically) and so he thought it would be
OK to eat the fruit.

I believe we just can't know...
but you're right...this is not something we can debate.
But your ideas are traditional Christian ideas.

Yes, God moved to save them. (Gen. 3:15-21)

As to this being the 'reason' Adam ate, it's not something I will go to the martyr's stake for. But I am confident that that is what and why Adam did it.

Is not Adam a figure of Christ who is called the Last Adam? (Rom. 4:14) (1 Cor. 15:45)

And we do know why Christ also bore the sin for His bride. (Eph. 5:25)

So I think it is more likely that Adam followed the reasoning that would pre-figure Christ also.

I haven't heard of the theory that Adam just thought it ok to eat the fruit. For Adam to think it was ok to eat the fruit would mean Adam was deceived. And we know he wasn't deceived. (1 Tim. 2:14)

Of course, it is never specifically stated as to why Adam ate. But I am confident that Adam ate because had he not, Eve was doomed. As I have said earlier, no human being was ever in a more dangerous position than Eve. She was fallen, and her head, Adam was not. The human race was not fallen. Only Eve. (Rom. 5:12)

Quantrill

 

[Serving Zion]

And we do know why Christ also bore the sin for His bride. (Eph. 5:25)

I'd just like to add Matthew 26:53-54 to show that Jesus says the father would honour Him if He were to choose to fight against the crucifixion, so it wasn't impossible for the cup to pass away from Him as we have already postulated. He asks the question in verse 54 to say "if I were to not fulfil the scriptures that say it must happen this way, then how will they be fulfilled?" (hence John 15:13 - "No greater love has this: that one shall lay down his life for his friends).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and they base their teaching on Jesus' parable of the rich man beseeching Abraham for favor.

It seems you are familiar with "churches that teach this stuff".
Why would the dead be able to see, speak, or ask favor from others who cannot see speak or answer?

I said that the dead DO NOT see, speak or ask favors from those in the other place.
This is what I believe...I don't think we can know for sure.
The dead in the story in Luke 16 are not in heaven yet...they're awaiting heaven in the "Bosom of Abraham".
Whatever that maybe.
Even Paul, who many believe saw heaven, stated that it could not be explained.
2 Corinthians 12:2

 

[Hopeful]

I said that the dead DO NOT see, speak or ask favors from those in the other place.
This is what I believe...I don't think we can know for sure.
The dead in the story in Luke 16 are not in heaven yet...they're awaiting heaven in the "Bosom of Abraham".
Whatever that maybe.
Even Paul, who many believe saw heaven, stated that it could not be explained.
2 Corinthians 12:2

The rich man wasn't going to heaven.
He had already had his good life, but wasted it on himself.
It was a made up story for Jesus to illustrate a point.
The point?
Share what you have been given, before it is too late.

Have you ever asked yourself...why did Jesus say that Lazarus went to Abraham, and not to Jesus or to the Father?

 

[GodsGrace]

The rich man wasn't going to heaven.
He had already had his good life, but wasted it on himself.
It was a made up story for Jesus to illustrate a point.
The point?
Share what you have been given, before it is too late.

Have you ever asked yourself...why did Jesus say that Lazarus went to Abraham, and not to Jesus or to the Father?

I believe I answered the above....
Before the cross...no one went to heaven, but awaited the cross in the comfort of Abraham's Bossom.
If you're asking why Abraham....I'm not sure.
I'd say it's because the covenant to save all humanity through Jesus was humanly through Abraham....
Comment?

 

[Hopeful]

I believe I answered the above....
Before the cross...no one went to heaven, but awaited the cross in the comfort of Abraham's Bossom.
If you're asking why Abraham....I'm not sure.
I'd say it's because the covenant to save all humanity through Jesus was humanly through Abraham....
Comment?

I feel that the concept of time, in heaven, to God, is disregarded.
As we know that some are "under the altar", (Rev 6:9), and Enoch went somewhere..."God took Him", (Gen 5:24), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "live", (Matt 22:32), I cannot believe in a waiting place for those who have passed before us.
They are in the grave till the day Christ returns. (John 11:24)
I don't buy the concept of purgatory and limbo.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God moved to save them. (Gen. 3:15-21)

As to this being the 'reason' Adam ate, it's not something I will go to the martyr's stake for. But I am confident that that is what and why Adam did it.

Is not Adam a figure of Christ who is called the Last Adam? (Rom. 4:14) (1 Cor. 15:45)

And we do know why Christ also bore the sin for His bride. (Eph. 5:25)

So I think it is more likely that Adam followed the reasoning that would pre-figure Christ also.

I haven't heard of the theory that Adam just thought it ok to eat the fruit. For Adam to think it was ok to eat the fruit would mean Adam was deceived. And we know he wasn't deceived. (1 Tim. 2:14)

Of course, it is never specifically stated as to why Adam ate. But I am confident that Adam ate because had he not, Eve was doomed. As I have said earlier, no human being was ever in a more dangerous position than Eve. She was fallen, and her head, Adam was not. The human race was not fallen. Only Eve. (Rom. 5:12)

Quantrill

I don't much like the idea that Adam ate because he thought it would be OK.
After all, God spoke to HIM...and the covenant was made with him.

Adam is a figure of Christ...OK.
Christ bore the sin for the whole world and not only His bride....but OK.
So you're saying that Adam made a known sacrifice to be able to follow Eve in her destiny?
(he surely understood better than Eve that there might be consequences---God told him
if he ate he would surely die.)

But you say above that Eve was doomed and that's why Adam ate.
But she would have been doomed anyway----
Why was this such a dangerous position for her?
I highlighted your words in your post above.

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel that the concept of time, in heaven, to God, is disregarded.
As we know that some are "under the altar", (Rev 6:9), and Enoch went somewhere..."God took Him", (Gen 5:24), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "live", (Matt 22:32), I cannot believe in a waiting place for those who have passed before us.
They are in the grave till the day Christ returns. (John 11:24)
I don't buy the concept of purgatory and limbo.

I never mentioned purgatory or limbo.
Do you believe in soul sleep then?

What I stated is not my idea but is accepted by at least two
denominations that I know of.

I don't think this is particularly important....but what do you make of
Hebrews 9:27
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

I believe that when we die we go immediately to be with God.
2 corinthians 5:6
6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord