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What events in the Bible did not actually occur?

Hopeful said:
Agreed.
But not all of Abraham's children will be found worthy of eternal life.
It is the children of Isaac that are counted worthy of eternal life.

Can you provide the sources of the "other stories", so I may read them?
Click to expand...
I would have to dig them out. I have stumbled across a few from Chabad.org but they may be difficult to find.
for_his_glory , do you still have the book by Snodgrass I sent you? If so, can you provide the references he gives? I don’t have that book in electronic format anymore.
 
stovebolts said:
I would have to dig them out. I have stumbled across a few from Chabad.org but they may be difficult to find.
for_his_glory , do you still have the book by Snodgrass I sent you? If so, can you provide the references he gives? I don’t have that book in electronic format anymore.
Click to expand...
I don't have the book with me as it's in storage, sorry.
 
stovebolts said:
I would have to dig them out. I have stumbled across a few from Chabad.org but they may be difficult to find.
for_his_glory , do you still have the book by Snodgrass I sent you? If so, can you provide the references he gives? I don’t have that book in electronic format anymore.
Click to expand...
I forgot that I wrote an article about the rich man and Lazarus. Here it is,

These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.


The discription of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment and be remembered no more by God, John 5:28, 29.

Darkness (lake of fire) and light (the New Jerusalem) are separate from each other as no one in either place can see each other. All former things are passed away and we will not have any recognition of things of this present earth including family and friends that rejected Christ and will be in a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth as they are cast into the lake of fire, Isaiah 65:17-25; Rev 21:1-8, Matthew 8:12; 22:13; Luke 20:34-38.
 
for_his_glory said:
I forgot that I wrote an article about the rich man and Lazarus. Here it is,

These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.


The discription of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment and be remembered no more by God, John 5:28, 29.

Darkness (lake of fire) and light (the New Jerusalem) are separate from each other as no one in either place can see each other. All former things are passed away and we will not have any recognition of things of this present earth including family and friends that rejected Christ and will be in a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth as they are cast into the lake of fire, Isaiah 65:17-25; Rev 21:1-8, Matthew 8:12; 22:13; Luke 20:34-38.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I remember that. It is very well done.

I said earlier that the Jews told similar stories and I was asked to provide those stories. They are in that book I sent you. Can you dig them out?

I used to have that book on Kindle but I don’t have access to it right now. Otherwise I would have dug them out.
 
for_his_glory said:
I forgot that I wrote an article about the rich man and Lazarus. Here it is,

These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.


The discription of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment and be remembered no more by God, John 5:28, 29.

Darkness (lake of fire) and light (the New Jerusalem) are separate from each other as no one in either place can see each other. All former things are passed away and we will not have any recognition of things of this present earth including family and friends that rejected Christ and will be in a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth as they are cast into the lake of fire, Isaiah 65:17-25; Rev 21:1-8, Matthew 8:12; 22:13; Luke 20:34-38.
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Nice work .. as usual.
So apparently you believe Luke 16 is a parable?
Those theologians that believe it's real say it's the only time Jesus uses a real name.
What do you think regarding this?
 
wondering said:
Nice work .. as usual.
So apparently you believe Luke 16 is a parable?
Those theologians that believe it's real say it's the only time Jesus uses a real name.
What do you think regarding this?
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Defiantly a parable as according to John 3:13 no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than Christ.
 
stovebolts said:
Yeah, I remember that. It is very well done.

I said earlier that the Jews told similar stories and I was asked to provide those stories. They are in that book I sent you. Can you dig them out?

I used to have that book on Kindle but I don’t have access to it right now. Otherwise I would have dug them out.
Click to expand...
It is buried and I would have to take everything out of storage to find it as my books are buried under other boxes. I wish I could help. What particular stories are you speaking about as I can look them up for you.

Hopeful Abraham only had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac was God's anointed while Ishmael rebelled against God and was the actual father of the Islamic nation as we know it today.
 
for_his_glory said:
Hopeful Abraham only had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac was God's anointed while Ishmael rebelled against God and was the actual father of the Islamic nation as we know it today.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on Ishmael's "rebellion against God"?
Nothing comes to my mind that I can assign rebellion to.
 
Hopeful said:
Can you elaborate on Ishmael's "rebellion against God"?
Nothing comes to my mind that I can assign rebellion to.
Click to expand...

Ishmael and Isaac

In 1910 BC, Abraham's wife, Sarah, frustrated with her inability to have a child and impatient with God's timing, asked Abraham to give her a child through their Egyptian maidservant 'Hagar'.

"Now Sarai, Abrams wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar so she said to Abram, "The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." (Genesis 16:1-2)

Hagar, servant that she was, submitted to being used this way. But her pregnancy gave birth to strong feelings of superiority toward Sarah. During Hagar's pregnancy, friction began to develop between Sarah and Hagar and when Hagar could no longer endure it, she fled into the desert. There God instructed her to return to Sarah, promising, "I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude" (Genesis 16:10). Into this tense, atmosphere Ishmael was born and for 13 years Abraham thought Ishmael's birth had fulfilled God's promise (Ishmael would become the progenitor of today's Arab world - the Arabs are an Ishmaelite3 race).

When Abraham reached 99 years of age, God appeared to him and announced that his wife Sarah would bear him a son and that they would call him Isaac. And it would be through Isaac that God would establish His covenant (Isaac became the father of the Israelites). Abraham struggled with this because he loved Ishmael dearly and desired that he be his heir and receive the birthright blessings. (Gen 17:18) "O that Ishmael might live before thee!" But the birthright was denied to Ishmael.

"And I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall come from her." Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man 100 years old? And will Sarah, who is 90 years old, bear a child?" And Abraham said to God, Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee (meaning he was first born)! But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him." (Genesis 17:16-19)

After the birth of Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael were sent away at Sarah's insistence,

(Gen 21:10) "Cast out this bondwoman and her son," Sarah demanded. Sarah was adamant that Ishmael should not inherit along with Isaac. God instructed Abraham to do as Sarah desired, but he reassured Abraham that, (Gen 21:13) also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed." But God also knew what kind of people Ishmael's descendants would be when He spoke prophetically to Hagar saying,

(Genesis 16:12) And he will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren, literally, he shall defy all his kinsmen. Genesis 25:18), His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur. And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers and to this day Arab hands have been against every man and every man's against theirs and they lived in hostility toward all their brothers.”

Ishmael was not a spirit of implacable hatred and murder against Isaac, but rather one of envy and rivalry. Ishmael's position in the family had been radically altered by Isaac's birth. This had wounded his proud spirit, and provoked him into a jealousy. And time has not softened this spirit of envy either. Attitudes and historical perspectives are often transmitted from father to son and from generation to generation. The effects of the domestic rivalry in the household of Abraham are still being felt to this day in the on-going Arab-Israeli conflict.

In time, Ishmael became the father of 12 sons (his descendants are called Ishmaelites) whose names are recorded in Genesis 25:13-16. Ishmael also had a daughter named Mahalath (Bashemath), who would later marry his half-brother Isaac's eldest son Esau, (Esau's descendants were known as Edomites).


​
 
for_his_glory said:
Defiantly a parable as according to John 3:13 no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than Christ.
Click to expand...

But (Luke 16) is not about Heaven. It is about paradise. Thus, (John 3:13) plays no role.

Also, (John 3:13) doesn't say no one has ascended up to heaven other than Christ. It says, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

In other words those who ascend to heaven are those who came down from heaven. Even Christ. See (John 3:3). If your origin is not right...from heaven...you cannot even 'see' the kingdom. It's all about origin.

Quantrill
 
wondering said:
Could you expound on this?
I'm not understanding what John 3:13 has to do with Luke 16....
(I know it's me and not you)....
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The parable about Lazarus and the rich man is speaking about heaven and hell as many take these parables literally. Many people think that when we die before Christ returns that they immediately go to one or the other, but that's no correct.
 
for_his_glory said:
The parable about Lazarus and the rich man is speaking about heaven and hell as many take these parables literally. Many people think that when we die before Christ returns that they immediately go to one or the other, but that's no correct.
Click to expand...
What is correct?
When we die we are judged and go where we belong.
When Christ returns the final judgement takes place.
The Lake of Fire that burns all the evil.


I don't think many take the parables as literal....
I know only of Luke 16 being taken literally by some theologians.
 
Quantrill said:
But (Luke 16) is not about Heaven. It is about paradise. Thus, (John 3:13) plays no role.

Also, (John 3:13) doesn't say no one has ascended up to heaven other than Christ. It says, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

In other words those who ascend to heaven are those who came down from heaven. Even Christ. See (John 3:3). If your origin is not right...from heaven...you cannot even 'see' the kingdom. It's all about origin.

Quantrill
Click to expand...

Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

I know you are going to say, what about Elijah, but even he is laying in his grave until the return of the Lord.
​
Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.​
 
wondering said:
What is correct?
When we die we are judged and go where we belong.
When Christ returns the final judgement takes place.
The Lake of Fire that burns all the evil.


I don't think many take the parables as literal....
I know only of Luke 16 being taken literally by some theologians.
Click to expand...
I only meant that many take Luke 16 literal.

What is correct is found in Matthew 24:29-31

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
for_his_glory said:
Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

I know you are going to say, what about Elijah, but even he is laying in his grave until the return of the Lord.
​
Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.​
Click to expand...

I never said Jesus returned for anyone after His ascension. I said paradise in (Luke 16) is not Heaven. Thus (John 3:13) plays no role in defining (Luke 16) as a parable.

And, the point of (John 3:13) is origin. It is not saying no man is in Heaven.

I believe the story of the rich man and Lazurus in (Luke 16) is a true story and not a parable. Paradise being the abode of the righteous prior to Christ's resurrection.

You wrote much concerning the translation of of some saints and the resurrection, and transfiguration. Too much for me to be interested in responding to. But we disagree on about all of it, as we do with the end time events.

Quantrill
 
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Not sure if I get this discussion right but
I thought the bible is for instance also a book of history? It lists facts? Of course it's not only a history book for the believer, but
One can read into it, and interpret some of it, as well.
But a fact is a fact? What about the dead sea roles?
I remember a Jewish scholar. He explained the fact that Adam and Eve were the first created man and woman by God - His children. But, before this, mankind already existed. How else can we explain Genesis 4-15-17 where does Cain's wife come from? Fact is, Saul and David existed, they are historical figures. So as a believer, I do believe all those things listed in the 'Word of God, from Him, to me'. From what I ever learned, Job is the only book that's said to be 'fiction', showing us how to keep the faith even when everything and everyone in life can be against oneself.
 
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