Bible Study What happens at death?

[ByGraceThruFaith]

According to Ezekiel 16, Sodom is supposed to make a comeback

Ezekiel 16:55 and on, Sodom and Samaria are termed SISTERS OF Israel, and they will return to their former estate

One verse placed out of context isn't the best way to build a doctrine.

The chapter context is about a sinful/adulterous wife/Israel. Her punishment & furure restoration

Ezekiel 16:53 (Amp Bible) “Nevertheless, I will restore them [again] from their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters (outlying cities), the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them [I will restore you from] your own captivity [in the day of the Lord God], 54 so that you [Judah] will bear your humiliation and disgrace, and be [thoroughly] ashamed for all [the wickedness] that you have done to console and comfort them.
(NOTE: 1st point: Above the translators point out OUTLYING CITIES. The time of restoration comes "During in the day of the Lord). With the Lord a day is like 1000 years Ps 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8. The time of restoration happens during the 1000 yr rein of Christ")

Ezekiel 16:54 "That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them."
(NOTE: Israel must be punished for her adultery. God, no respecter of persons, did not spared Sodom or Samaria. Nor would/did He overlook Israel's sin just because she was His wife. The city falls, houses burned, their sent into captivity)

Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."
(NOTE: "Then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate". Meaning that it would never come to pass. In the natural God couldn't forgive the adulterous sin Israel had committed. However, God's grace goes far beyond the natural. Israel did not deserve to be forgiven, any more than Samaria, or Sodom, nor was she. However, Israel will be restored completely during the 1000 yr rule of Christ. Posted scripture (Jude 1:7) proclaims the natural/physical Sodom & G were destroyed forever.)

 

[OzSpen]

(Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration.

FHG,

From where in Scripture do you gain that theology of life after death for unbelievers?

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

From where in Scripture do you gain that theology of life after death for unbelievers?

Oz

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The unsaved go to everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not duration. It's like we have eternal life with the Father, but those who are cast into the lake of fire have an eternal life of damnation as their punishment is eternal.

 

[OzSpen]

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The unsaved go to everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not duration. It's like we have eternal life with the Father, but those who are cast into the lake of fire have an eternal life of damnation as their punishment is eternal.

 

[OzSpen]

FHG,

One of the verses you cite to prove that the damned will to everlasting punishment and not everlasting punishing is:

Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

For how long will you, 'the righteous' experience 'life eternal'?

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

One of the verses you cite to prove that the damned will to everlasting punishment and not everlasting punishing is:



For how long will you, 'the righteous' experience 'life eternal'?

Oz

Life eternal has no end whether it be with life everlasting with the Father or life everlasting within being cast into the lake of fire. These are the final judgements of God that will be forever as there is no end of time.

 

[OzSpen]

Life eternal has no end whether it be with life everlasting with the Father or life everlasting within being cast into the lake of fire. These are the final judgements of God that will be forever as there is no end of time.

FHG,

That's correct, based on the Greek words. The believer will spend aiwnios time in life - eternal. The unbeliever will spend aiwnios time in the lake of fire. Same length of time for both.

What does aiwnios mean? The same adjective, aiwnios, is used of kolasis (punishment) as zoe (life). If we limit aiwnios to a limited period of time, we must do the same for both eternal punishment and eternal life. There is no indication by Jesus that the punishment for both the damned and life for the believer is not the same duration.

The word, aiwnios, based on the word aiwn, meaning age, refers to something without beginning or without end or both. The idea of eternal for the Greek is about as close as we can get to expressing the idea. Sometimes it is translated 'ages of ages' (see A T Robertson on Matt 25:46).

We know it cannot end as it means exactly the same as the length of time for eternal life.

This picture of an unclean garbage dump where the fires and the worms never died out became to the Jewish mind an appropriate description of the ultimate fate of all idol worshipers. Gehenna came to be understood as the final, eternal garbage dump where all idolaters would be thrown after the resurrection. The wicked would suffer in Gehenna forever because the fires would never stop burning them and the worms would never stop gnawing them.

Why do you discard the meaning of eternal punishing and replace it with eternal punishment? Do you mean that eternal punishment for unbelievers is annihilation of them after death and there is no conscious existence for the damned?

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

Nice discussion!
I'm enjoying reading this.

I can't add much except that I too have read (and seen) the valley of Hinnom (not much more than a ditch in reality) was the garbage dump. The place would fill with maggots and then dogs would get into the trash to eat the maggots.
Then the place would be torched and set fire to. Usually a slow burning fire that stinks too much. The dogs going in after maggots or other food would cry out when getting burned.
It was on the "poor side" of town. People would dump chamber pots and all the nasty bits of garbage there. Rags and other things usually were utilized in other ways. (Great recycling program)

 

[jasonc]

Nice discussion!
I'm enjoying reading this.

I can't add much except that I too have read (and seen) the valley of Hinnom (not much more than a ditch in reality) was the garbage dump. The place would fill with maggots and then dogs would get into the trash to eat the maggots.
Then the place would be torched and set fire to. Usually a slow burning fire that stinks too much. The dogs going in after maggots or other food would cry out when getting burned.
It was on the "poor side" of town. People would dump chamber pots and all the nasty bits of garbage there. Rags and other things usually were utilized in other ways. (Great recycling program)

burn pits, we had them in Iraq and Afghanistan. whatever was trashed to included animal caracass we burned. human waste.

 

[JohnDB]

burn pits, we had them in Iraq and Afghanistan. whatever was trashed to included animal caracass we burned. human waste.

The smell was something I'll not forget anytime soon. Also trying to breathe after getting too many of the fumes from these fires is another thing. (You can't)

Some places (Honduras) have very little sanitation services. So most trash is burned. The fumes from everyone's trash being burned on a citywide scale in the morning...uggghhhh

The whole place would get a stinky, smokey air about it. The haze would increase...it was nasty.

 

[jasonc]

The smell was something I'll not forget anytime soon. Also trying to breathe after getting too many of the fumes from these fires is another thing. (You can't)

Some places (Honduras) have very little sanitation services. So most trash is burned. The fumes from everyone's trash being burned on a citywide scale in the morning...uggghhhh

The whole place would get a stinky, smokey air about it. The haze would increase...it was nasty.

they still do that in isreal? idiots the veterans such as myself have a few diseases from that. asthma is one. that is another thread.

 

[jasonc]

lunger cancer, mesothelmia,and also asthma and other such problems have arisen from that. yes that smell can be horrible. we use jp8 to ignite the burn pit and also goats ate food from that and would often die from easting the burnt plastic mre's

 

[JohnDB]

lunger cancer, mesothelmia,and also asthma and other such problems have arisen from that. yes that smell can be horrible. we use jp8 to ignite the burn pit and also goats ate food from that and would often die from easting the burnt plastic mre's

Nooooo.... Israel has state of the art sanitation and recycling programs.
Palestinians do not. They just throw trash everywhere and as it blows over into Israel the Israelites clean it up. The Palestinians do have some sort of trash pickup... didn't really see it though.

 

[jasonc]

State of the art ,lol,side loaders and those things .

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

That's correct, based on the Greek words. The believer will spend aiwnios time in life - eternal. The unbeliever will spend aiwnios time in the lake of fire. Same length of time for both.

What does aiwnios mean? The same adjective, aiwnios, is used of kolasis (punishment) as zoe (life). If we limit aiwnios to a limited period of time, we must do the same for both eternal punishment and eternal life. There is no indication by Jesus that the punishment for both the damned and life for the believer is not the same duration.

The word, aiwnios, based on the word aiwn, meaning age, refers to something without beginning or without end or both. The idea of eternal for the Greek is about as close as we can get to expressing the idea. Sometimes it is translated 'ages of ages' (see A T Robertson on Matt 25:46).

We know it cannot end as it means exactly the same as the length of time for eternal life.

This picture of an unclean garbage dump where the fires and the worms never died out became to the Jewish mind an appropriate description of the ultimate fate of all idol worshipers. Gehenna came to be understood as the final, eternal garbage dump where all idolaters would be thrown after the resurrection. The wicked would suffer in Gehenna forever because the fires would never stop burning them and the worms would never stop gnawing them.

Why do you discard the meaning of eternal punishing and replace it with eternal punishment? Do you mean that eternal punishment for unbelievers is annihilation of them after death and there is no conscious existence for the damned?

Oz

This is what I said that I think you might not have understood.
I said: The unsaved go to everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not duration. It's like we have eternal life with the Father, but those who are cast into the lake of fire have an eternal life of damnation as their punishment is eternal.

IMO I see a difference between punishment and the actual duration of the punishing age that will never cease. The punishment in this case is being cast into the lake of fire and the punishing is eternal within the unquenchable fire (torment) simular to the unquenchable fires of Gehenna, but those fires only had an age of a certain amount of literal time here on earth.

biblestudytools.com

aiwnios/aionios definition:
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

Used in the NT as eternal 66 times, eternity 1 time. forever 1 time

aiwn/aion definition:
1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age

Used in the NT as age 20, ages 6, ancient time 1, beginning of time

1, course 1, eternal 2, eternity 1, ever 2, forever and ever 20, forevermore 2, long ago 1, never 1, old 1, time 1, world 7, worlds 1

Notice the word "worlds" in Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

When I read this I think of two worlds without end that come to mind. The present world we live in that will pass away in the way it is with sin being in it to be made new again by God before ushering down the New Jerusalem as this is a world without end that will never cease.

Then there being another type of world in a sense (not to be confused with the under world being the grave) for those who are damned as being cast into its own world (unlike our world) being that of the lake of unquenchable fire for eternity without end. Both worlds has a beginning without end. Just as God's plan of salvation was before the foundation of the world so is
God's plan of judgement against those who reject Him.

Their is life in the temporal as in breath/human life in our present age here on earth like God saying man shall live to be 120. Then their is eternal age that is forever without end as in eternity. There is historical time as well as eternity that never ceases.