What is a man?

[Butch5]

Butch,
Hades has a part of it that is torment....
Gehenna is a place in Jerusalem where trash is burned..or was at the time of Jesus.

The fact that Hades, Sheoul, Gehenna and Hell get all mixed together in our bibles is no reason to doubt that we do not go to any of these places if we are saved persons.

Jesus said that the name of the place where souls were waiting for HIS resurrection is called Hades:
Luke 16:23
23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

No He didn't. This passage says no such thing. It says the rich man lifted up his eyes in torment and saw Abraham. There is nothing here about souls waiting for the resurrection

Jesus said that the persons in Hades were in torment and some wanted their tongues to be dipped with water because of the agony of the flame.
Luke 16:24
24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

No He didn't. He said the rich man was in torment in Hades. There is no "some" in this passage. It's one person

Across the chasm was Abraham's Bossom, the resting place for the saved by faith that were awaiting Jesus' resurrection.
Luke 16:26
26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

It doesn't say anything at all about saved people. It doesn't say anything at all about people waiting from the resurrection. It says one person, Lazarus, was in Abraham's bosom.

The KJV calls Abraham's Bossom PARADISE
and it calls Hades HELL....
The only place is scripture that is correctly translated as HELL is 2 Peter 2:4,,,which is called Tartarus,,,but translated as HELL.

No it doesn't. Abraham's bosom and Paradise are two different places. The KJV doesn't conflate them.

As I had said,, some do believe that Abraham's Bossom is Paradise and that Hades might be both places combined...separated by a chasm. I have no strong belief in either teaching... I do tend to believe that Paradise is Abraham's Bossom and those persons were released into heaven at the time of Jesus' deathNo it ,,,Matthew 27:51 when the curtain was torn in two.

What people believe doesn't change what the Scriptures say.

Can't you see that you're imposing your beliefs on Scripture. You say things about this parable that the parable never states. There is nothing in the parable about Abraham's bosom being a place for rest for the saved. The passage doesn't even mention the saved. It doesn't even mention believers. You have multiple people in these places where Jesus only had one. You're conflating Paradise and Abraham's bosom. You said Jesus called Hades the place where souls waited for the Resurrection. None of this is in the passage. This is all stuff you're bringing to the text. This is what I was talking about when I spoke of preconceptions. You already have these beliefs and you're imposing them on the text.

 

[Edward]

OK Ed,
but man does not think with the heart!

However, I'll read the link tomorrow morning.
I believe I know what it'll say, but who knows....
Since it pumps blood to the brain,,,the heart absolutely has
an affect on the brain.....but it does not contain any emotion...
will read the link.

Tomorrow.

They say that our heart has about 400 times more "thinking" capacity than our brain does and the heart's electromagnetic field is much stronger than the brains.

And the clues are right there in scripture too.

 

[Butch5]

I believe you're familiar with science because of questions you asked me in a previous post regarding creation and evolution.

So do you not know that science is aware of the fact that the BRAIN is part of the physical body.....
But the MIND is something different.

I looked and found these remarks to be interesting:

Dualism is the concept that our mind is more than just our brain. This concept entails that our mind has a non-material, spiritual dimension that includes consciousness and possibly an eternal attribute. One way to understand this concept is to consider our self as a container including our physical body and physical brain along with a separate non-physical mind, spirit, or soul. The mind, spirit, or soul is considered the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain in a similar way that picture waves and sound waves manifest themselves through a television set. The picture and sound waves are also non-material just like the mind, spirit, or soul.

The alternative concept is materialism. Materialism holds that everything in our universe is made from physical materials including the human mind or brain and that spiritual attributes do not exist in the universe. This concept holds that our mind and brain are one and the same.

If dualism is not true, the mind is limited to the physical brain. Assuming this scenario, what kind of a mind would we expect? We certainly would not expect to have consciousness strictly from materials. Perhaps we could expect to see a mechanical mind similar to a computer that is run by a program. We would not expect things like consciousness, sensations, thoughts, emotions, desires, beliefs, and free choice. Such a mind would behave in a deterministic way based upon the laws of matter. Many scientists and philosophers are now concluding that the laws of chemistry and physics cannot explain the experience of consciousness in human beings.

We would not expect people with such a mind to be responsible for their behavior because everything they do is determined by the attributes of matter. We all know that is absurd. Also, we could not trust our minds since they are just a random collection of materials not produced by an intelligent mind.


and


The brain is an organ but the mind isn't. The brain is the physical place where the mind resides. It is a vessel in which the electronic impulses that create thought are contained. With the brain you coordinate your moves, your organism, your activities and transmit impulses. But you use the mind to think. You can muse at what happened, what is scheduled and what maybe will happen.

The mind is the manifestations of thought, perception, emotion, determination, memory and imagination that takes place within the brain. Mind is often used to refer especially to the thought processes of reason. The mind is the awareness of consciousness we know, the ability to control what we do, and know what we are doing and why. It is the ability to understand. Animal are able to interpret their environments, but not understand them. whereas human are able to understand what happens around them, even if not the scientific reasoning for it, and therefore adapt.

source: https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_difference_between_mind_and_brain


This will be addressed next....

Did you read this?

He said,

"The brain is the physical place where the mind resides."

and he said,

"The mind, spirit, or soul is considered the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain in a similar way that picture waves and sound waves manifest themselves through a television set."

What is a soul? And God formed the man from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath (spirit) of life into his nostrils and the man became a living soul. So, a soul is the body and the breath or spirit of life from God. What did the author say?

"The mind, spirit, or soul is considered the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain"


The man without the breath/spirit of God is an inanimate object. What did it take for the man to become a living, conscious, soul? The spirit of God.

Surely a spirit is in man, And the breath of the Mighty One Doth cause them to understand. (Job 32:8 YLT)

What gives man understanding? The spirit of the Mighty One. There is a spirit in man, the breath of life, and that spirit is of the Might One, and it gives man understanding. It gives man consciousness, it gives man life. A brain without the breath/spirit of life can do nothing. A brain with the breath/spirit of God is conscious.

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4 KJV)

The spirit of life gave Job life.

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.1
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.1
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.1 (Eph. 4:21-29 KJV)

The spirit of your mind. The breath of your mind. What made Adam come alive? The spirit of life. His mind came to life when it was infused with the spirit of life. The spirit of the mind, the spirit of life. The spirit of the mind, the spirit that animates the mind, what is it? It's the breath of life.

 

[Butch5]

THIS is the statement that I said you apparently had a problem with.

I wrote what I wrote because I agree with what I wrote...
Those who believe in Jesus will never die.
What lets us be ME will live on....
That would be my soul ---

Are you going to answer WHERE you believe the soul is?
Do you believe it is part of our physical body?
We are a living soul is a metaphor....
We ARE a living soul because our soul is alive...
but the euphamism means we are a living being...
Just as Genesis 1:7 states: the man formed became a LIVING BEING.

That living being comprises the man's body and his soul and his spirit.

I don't have a problem with it. It's simply a contradiction. If you're going to claim that being a living soul is a metaphor, you need to explain the metaphor.

Look at what you posted, "the man formed became a LIVING BEING." The word translated being is the word soul. The body, soul and spirit are not all parts of the soul. he living being that was formed was formed from the man and the breath of life, not all three.


Yes, I do mean that the body dies....
this is apparent.
If life continues...then what continues is the soul and spirit.
If they do not continue then we become annihilated.
So there is no contradiction:
We die
and yet we live.
John 6:58
58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

The fathers ate and died..... (physically)
Do we also not die?? (physically)
So what does Jesus mean by "he who eats this bread will live forever." ??[/quote]

Here, you adding to the passage again. It doesn't say "physically". It says they died. Adding physically implies some other type of death, but we see no other type of death in the Scriptures nor in life.

He means they'll be resurrected .

As I said,,,,Jesus and Martha were speaking of the resurrection in John 11:25-26.

Martha said: I know my brother will rise again in the resurrection.
Jesus tells her HE IS the resurrection. At the resurrection the body WILL resurrect. But for right at that moment, Jesus tells Martha that EVEN THOUGH A PERSON DIES...he will live. HE WILL LIVE.

If a person dies...HOW will he live? Jesus did not say he would live AGAIN....He said the person will live EVEN THOUGH he dies.

Shall live is future tense. He acknowledged that one who believes may die and that one shall live. Not does live, shall live. The whole idea of resurrection is to raise the dead. It doesn't mean life continues. In order to be resurrected on must first die. He said He was the Resurrection so His words pertain to Resurrection.

In addition, I've already pointed out several times that the Father alone is immortal. That means nothing and no one else is.

At this point, I would ask again....
what does ETERNAL LIFE mean?
If our life is eternal, it means we never die....but only physically.
Our SELF will remain alive: our spirit and our soul.

Again, you're adding physically. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says we only die physically.

1 John 5:12
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Notice the tense here too.
He who HAS THE SON
HAS THE LIFE...........this is present tense.

He who DOES NOT HAVE THE SON
DOES NOT HAVE eternal life.

Our life is either eternal or it is not.

part 1 of 2

He says that because the one who believes has the promise of eternal life. However, that doesn't mean they possess it at this moment. Like Paul said, the believer has the down payment on their inheritance.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13-14 KJV)

It's the down payment until the redemption.

As Jesus Himself said, though he may die, he shall (future tense) live, and he who lives (the one that shall live) will never die. It's the resurrected believer that shall never die. Not the person living today. The person living today will die. As the Scriptures say, it's appointed man once to die.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb. 9:27 KJV)

Notice it doesn't say it is appointed unto men's bodies to die. It says men.

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet. 1:5 KJV)

Notice what Peter says about Salvation. It's to be revealed at the last time. Salvation is eternal life. Eternal life is to be revealed at the last time, not now, at the last time.

 

[Edward]

 

[Butch5]

Butch5


Are you saying we're both using circular reasoning?

No, I'm saying the argument that many are using is.

You deny Hades, which JESUS taught.
You deny the Transfiguration which JESUS spoke of.
I can't speak to the souls under the altar...it's probably in Revelation.

I have to believe what Jesus said.
These are words of Christ...
Moses was alive....he was seen by the 3 Apostles...it was not a vision. Hades was a real place.

I've not denied Hades. It is the grave.
I've not denied the Transfiguration. It was a vision.
I believe the words of Jesus. But, it's obvious to me when He's telling a story.
Moses wasn't alive because the Scriptures tell us that Moses died. Jesus tells us it was a vision. Peter tells us that it was Jesus' coming in power.

Didn't Jesus win the victory over death and the grave?
What does this mean if man has always died?

Whoever BELIEVES in the Son HAS ETERNAL LIFE...
John 3:35

It means that death isn't the end.

I've had to do the above and I agree with you.
There are scholars that agree with you and those that agree with me. As I said,,,,we must study and be true to ourselves. I do tend to believe literally what Jesus taught....this I can say for sure. Some verses are speaking about eternal life that begins now,,,and some are speaking of the future resurrection...I separate them. I'll also take this opportunity to tell you that you do intensive studies and I do appreciate this.

1. I just wish you would explain how our feelings could come from a physical body....our body does not have feelings.
2. And maybe you could explain eternal life, if you believe it does not start now.

Thanks! I did explain that in another post. Our bodies do have feelings. If you stub your toe you'll have feelings.

Eternal life is simple. It's the Resurrection.

Then I am apparently not able to make myself clear....
BEFORE Jesus died,,, EVERYONE was awaiting His death and resurrection in a holding pen....Jesus called the tormented part of it Hades,,,,but it is believed it was all Hades but separated with a chasm --- (so YES, being dead meant being in "Hades", or at least either in Abraham's Bossom OR Hades as the tormented place).

AFTER Jesus died, those in Abraham's Bossom (a place) were released to heaven....and those in the tormented place stayed there....(hell, as it can be translated).]/quote]

But the Bible doesn't say any of that. Again, there was one man in Hades, the grave, and one man in Abraham's bosom. There's nothing here about a holding pen, or people awaiting Jesus' death and resurrection.

The rich man was buried in a grave. This is what Jesus calls Hades, not being dead. He said the rich man was buried, and in Hades. It's the body that is buried. Jesus equates this with Hades.

Since you believe the soul is man
and man dies
then of course you believe the soul dies.

This is soul sleep.
Or annihilation of the damned.

I believe the soul is a PART OF MAN
and must necessarily continue to live.

I do hold to Annihilationism. Soul Sleep has too many definitions. If you asked 10 people what it is you'll likely get 10 different answers. One thing I find is that people will often try to tie doctrines they don't like to cults so that they don't have to address them. It seems that people feel if a doctrine is tied to a cult it can simply be dismissed rather than addressed. I think it's pretty clear in the OP what I believe.

We both agree the spirit lives...so I ask you once again:

3. Which part of us, right now, is our ego, or inner man, or our self-identity?

4. Is the mind different than the brain?

If you just answer these 4 questions, I do believe this conversation should end....I'd just like to really understand what you believe.
You say the soul dies and the spirit returns to God.
So is question no. 3 in our spirit? Is the spirit our SELF?


part 2 of 2

The spirit is a part of God so it goes back to Him.

I addressed this in post 263

The answer is the brain. However, it's the brain that is infused with the spirit of God. Scripture says that it is the spirit of God that gave Job understanding. Adam's became conscious when he was infused with the spirit of God. That's when he began to think and feel ect. However, it is the brain that controls these things.

 

[Butch5]

It’s about real people who are literal as Jesus used their names to teach us about life after death.


JLB

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

When we were little kids, life was all about the flesh. I skinned my knee, I'm hungry. It was only after we grew up some and matured enough or by the grace of God, Became aware that we are triune beings and that there is a spiritual aspect of man and of life. Of God! We became saved (PTL!) and are now new creatures in Christ, the old things being passed away.

My flesh body did not pass away, nor was it renewed or upgraded in any way. So it had to happen in my spirit. And no, God did not make His breath of life Spirit a new creature in Christ within us, lol! That happens to our spirit, to us. Yes it can be said that we are flesh man (loosely), but it is also true that our spirit is real, the Spirit of God is real, as is the Spiritual realm. And us believers are saved now and belong to the Lord, and the Lord instructed us in scripture to...look to the unseen, be led by the Spirit and to seek God.

Doesn't scripture say that flesh man will not see God and can not know God? So to seek God we must (go internal) and position our heart and spirit towards the Lord which brings us into His presence. Learning about our own spirit man and the Lord's Holy Spirit is our Christian duty and we must obey our Lord. So to be led by the Spirit means we have to remain cognizant and aware of the Lord's presence at all times, and this is done by keeping our spirit focused on Him. So we're duty-bound to learn about our own spirit and believe it and accept it. We must spiritually evolve.

So to reduce man down to a mere body alone, is theologically absurd. This is what it is all about. I am a spirit being who was fearfully and wonderfully made and was created in God's own image and likeness, and were born (and re-born) to follow Him and be led by Him. So reject the flesh and cleave to the Spirit. The flesh may be my temporary home but it is the most insignificant part of who I am. I am NOT a mere flesh man! I am a new creature in Christ and I can feel it within me. I am spirit. You may be flesh, and I'm sorry to hear that. But I'm not.

"My flesh body did not pass away, nor was it renewed or upgraded in any way. So it had to happen in my spirit." This is a false dilemma. Paul could be speaking metaphorically about a persons way of life.

 

[Butch5]

wondering, on post 266 expand the last section to see the answers

 

[GodsGrace]

if what he said about the heart was true. a person with a heart transplant would have the emotions of the original person who is dead. we know that isn't the case

Agreed. But I don't think this is what Edward is saying.
I looked at the link but it's pretty long and I can't sit here right now for long....
If you take a look at it...let us know what you think.
(his post no. 254).

 

[GodsGrace]

No He didn't. This passage says no such thing. It says the rich man lifted up his eyes in torment and saw Abraham. There is nothing here about souls waiting for the resurrection



No He didn't. He said the rich man was in torment in Hades. There is no "some" in this passage. It's one person



It doesn't say anything at all about saved people. It doesn't say anything at all about people waiting from the resurrection. It says one person, Lazarus, was in Abraham's bosom.



No it doesn't. Abraham's bosom and Paradise are two different places. The KJV doesn't conflate them.

So Hades is a place where only ONE PERSON resided?
And verse 26 is speaking ONLY about Lazarus and the certain Rich Man?
And THOSE that want to go from here to you cannot....
to whom is this referring? Who are the "THOSE"?

Are the lost not in "hell".....Hades,
and are the saved not in Abraham's Bossom?

I'm reading nothing into the text.

Luke 16:19-31
19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—

28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’

31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[JLB]

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)

Don’t change the subject, bro, were still discussing
Luke 16:19-30.


Matthew 13 doesn’t discuss literal people.

Show me in the parables of Matthew 13 where Jesus referred to a literal person.

His parabolic teachings have phrases to indicate such —

Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying:
“Behold, a sower went out to sow. Matthew 13:3

again


Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Matthew 13:24


again



Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, Matthew 13:31


again



Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33


Not one literal name of a person is used, but only parabolic references to fictitious people.


Then He would explain the parable to His disciples.


In Luke 16, it begins with a parable in the same manner, using fictitious people without names.


Then in verse 14, Jesus is speaking literally —



Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:14-18


This is direct speech or literal speech.


Then He tells of Abraham, the rich man and Lazarus.

Literal names are used.
No indication of a parable.
Jesus uses direct speech and says actual people said literal things.


Not a parable bro.


Jesus literally said Abraham said these words...


But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’



Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”



We don’t get to decide that words Jesus said are not true.


If Jesus said Abraham spoke these words, then that is the truth.

If Jesus says, angels carried Lazarus to where Abraham was when he died, then that is the truth.


It’s a literal story, about life after death.


It taught the Pharisees that just because a person was wealthy did not mean they were blessed, likewise It taught them that just because a person was poor and sick, did not mean they were cursed by God.




JLB

 

[Butch5]

So Hades is a place where only ONE PERSON resided?
And verse 26 is speaking ONLY about Lazarus and the certain Rich Man?
And THOSE that want to go from here to you cannot....
to whom is this referring? Who are the "THOSE"?

Are the lost not in "hell".....Hades,
and are the saved not in Abraham's Bossom?

I'm reading nothing into the text.

Luke 16:19-31
19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—

28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’

31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

It's a parable.

The parable speaks of Lazarus and a rich man. The rich man is in the grave. He died and was buried. People are buried in graves. Jesus equates Hades and the grave. There are a lot of people in graves. The five brothers in verse 28 are alive.

You're reading what you believe into the passage.

Please show me anywhere in this passage that speaks of the saved.
Where does it speak of believers?
Where does it speak of the lost?
Where does it say Lazarus was a believer, saved, or a righteous man?
Where does it say that the rich man was an, unbeliever, lost, or wicked?
Where did Jesus mention anything about this being a holding place for souls?

You're interpretation of this passage isn't even consistent with what you believe. You believe that a believer is saved, correct, that they are the one's in Abraham's bosom. However, if we take your literal reading of this passage, that's not the case. With a literal reading we have to conclude that the poor go to Abraham's bosom and the rich go to hell. Do you believe that? Do you believe that if a person is poor they get saved and if their rich they go to hell? If that's the case then there isn't much hope for western society. Because by world standards even the poor in the west would be considered pretty well off.

Please, can you answer these questions and can you reconcile your belief with what we see that the poor man went to Abraham and the rich man went to hell.

We get the same thing with this idea that Paradise is a place in Hades. There is nothing in Scripture that equate Paradise with Hades. This idea comes from people imposing their beliefs on the Bible. People believe that the dead live on so they misunderstand what Paradise is, then they misunderstand this passage about Lazarus and the rich man and conclude that in both instances the people died and were "supposedly" alive and that they went somewhere and since the one passage speaks of Paradise and the other Hades, that these two places must be the same. They're not. It's an idea that is created from the misunderstanding of the two passages, the conclusions of which are then conflated.

 

[Butch5]

If you want to understand the Bible, stop telling it what it says, and let it tell you what it says.

 

[JLB]

If you want to understand the Bible, stop telling it what it says, and let it tell you what it says.

You should take your own advice.


Here is what Jesus says —-

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Do you believe hell is a literal place where people are tormented in fire?



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Don’t change the subject, bro, were still discussing
Luke 16:19-30.


Matthew 13 doesn’t discuss literal people.

Show me in the parables of Matthew 13 where Jesus referred to a literal person.

His parabolic teachings have phrases to indicate such —

Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying:
“Behold, a sower went out to sow. Matthew 13:3

again


Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Matthew 13:24


again



Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, Matthew 13:31


again



Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33


Not one literal name of a person is used, but only parabolic references to fictitious people.


Then He would explain the parable to His disciples.


In Luke 16, it begins with a parable in the same manner, using fictitious people without names.


Then in verse 14, Jesus is speaking literally —



Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:14-18


This is direct speech or literal speech.


Then He tells of Abraham, the rich man and Lazarus.

Literal names are used.
No indication of a parable.
Jesus uses direct speech and says actual people said literal things.


Not a parable bro.


Jesus literally said Abraham said these words...


But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’



Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”



We don’t get to decide that words Jesus said are not true.


If Jesus said Abraham spoke these words, then that is the truth.

If Jesus says, angels carried Lazarus to where Abraham was when he died, then that is the truth.


It’s a literal story, about life after death.


It taught the Pharisees that just because a person was wealthy did not mean they were blessed, likewise It taught them that just because a person was poor and sick, did not mean they were cursed by God.




JLB

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)

You can deny it if you want to, but it's right there in black and white. Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables. Notice, Mathew didn't say Jesus only spoke to them in parables in my Gospel. He said Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables. And we see that in the Gospels. Jesus spoke the parables to the crowds and then explained them to His disciples. He said,

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand1.'
11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (Lk. 8:10-11 NKJ)

So, the meaning of parables has to do with the Kingdom of God which Jesus told to the disciples. However, it wasn't being told to the multitudes. Thus the apparent meaning of the parables is not the real meaning. Thus the parable's real meaning is not about life after death.

 

[JLB]

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)

You can deny it if you want to, but it's right there in black and white. Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables. Notice, Mathew didn't say Jesus only spoke to them in parables in my Gospel. He said Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables. And we see that in the Gospels. Jesus spoke the parables to the crowds and then explained them to His disciples. He said,

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand1.'
11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (Lk. 8:10-11 NKJ)

So, the meaning of parables has to do with the Kingdom of God which Jesus told to the disciples. However, it wasn't being told to the multitudes. Thus the apparent meaning of the parables is not the real meaning. Thus the parable's real meaning is not about life after death.

Sorry Butch.

Starting in verse 14, Jesus is no longer speaking in parable.


Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:14-18

• Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Literal Teaching.


“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:19-31




JLB

 

[Butch5]

You should take your own advice.


Here is what Jesus says —-


So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’


Do you believe hell is a literal place where people are tormented in fire?



JLB

There's no need to keep repeating the parable, I know what it says. That's not the question.

Why do you say hell? The passage doesn't use the word hell, it uses the word Hades.
Using the word hell just makes it easy to equivocate. There's a place called Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire, where the wicked will be cast. Hades, however, is not a place where the wicked will be tormented.

Since you insist on saying this is literal, please show me anywhere in the Bible other than this passage where someone suffers in fire in Hades.

 

[JLB]

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)

You can deny it if you want to, but it's right there in black and white. Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables. Notice, Mathew didn't say Jesus only spoke to them in parables in my Gospel. He said Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables. And we see that in the Gospels. Jesus spoke the parables to the crowds and then explained them to His disciples. He said,

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand1.'
11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (Lk. 8:10-11 NKJ)

So, the meaning of parables has to do with the Kingdom of God which Jesus told to the disciples. However, it wasn't being told to the multitudes. Thus the apparent meaning of the parables is not the real meaning. Thus the parable's real meaning is not about life after death.

Here is what Jesus says —-

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Do you believe hell is a literal place where people are tormented in fire?



JLB

 

[JLB]

There's no need to keep repeating the parable, I know what it says. That's not the question.

Do you believe hell is a literal place where people are tormented in fire?