What is a man?

[Butch5]

Sorry Butch.

Starting in verse 14, Jesus is no longer speaking in parable.


Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:14-18

• Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Literal Teaching.


“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:19-31




JLB

Just because you say He's not speaking in Parables doesn't mean He's not speaking in parables. As I've pointed out numerous times now Mathew said that He only spoke to them in parables. You can deny that if you choose to, that's up to you, But, because I said so, isn't evidence for your argument

 

[JLB]

Why do you say hell?

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Do you believe hell is a literal place with fire?

 

[JLB]

As I've pointed out numerous times now Mathew said that He only spoke to them in parables. You can deny that if you choose to, that's up to you, But, because I said so, isn't evidence for your argument

Matthew 13 is not Luke 16.

 

[JLB]

You can deny that if you choose to, that's up to you, But, because I said so, isn't evidence for your argument

Is everything Jesus taught a parable?

 

[Butch5]

The Bible doesn't speak of hell. It speaks of Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. I'll answer your question when you specify. I'm not using hell where people can equivocate

 

[JLB]

The Bible doesn't speak of hell. It speaks of Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.

Obviously hell is real.


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Do you believe hell is a literal place with fire?

 

[JLB]

The Bible doesn't speak of hell. It speaks of Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. I'll answer your question when you specify. I'm not using hell where people can equivocate

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.




The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18

 

[Butch5]

Matthew 13 is not Luke 16.

It's funny, I've seen you, in different threads, go all over the Bible taking passages to support a particular doctrine and now here all of sudden a passage in Mathew can't be accepted because it's in a different book. The four Gospels are all accounts of Jesus' ministry. They all give different aspects and things He said and did. His ministry wasn't different in each Gospel.

 

[Butch5]

Obviously hell is real.


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Do you believe hell is a literal place with fire?

Why won't you specify? Do you plan on equivocating?

 

[Butch5]

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.




The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18

Of these passages only two mention hell and fire and in both hell is Gehenna. The Rich Man was not in Gehenna he was in Hades.

Can you show anywhere in Scripture where someone is suffering in fire in Hades other than the passage in question?

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you read this?

He said,

"The brain is the physical place where the mind resides."

and he said,

"The mind, spirit, or soul is considered the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain in a similar way that picture waves and sound waves manifest themselves through a television set."

Yes...I did read it.
It agrees with what I've been saying:
The brain and the mind are different.
The brain is a physical part of our body...
The mind is NOT.
The brain is where the mind resides....the link agrees.
The mind, spirit or soul is the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain.
Exactly.
Are sound waves visible? NO.
You only know they're present because you hear something....

What is the mind?

“The Basic Theory of the Mind” is a physical theory about the mind and its phenomena, such as consciousness and qualia. It also involves related matters, including the hard problem of consciousness, the explanatory gap, variable qualia, p-zombies, and free will. This theory is a scientifically verifiable theory – it is based on physical evidence and has experimentally testable predictions.

source: https://mindtheory.net/?gclid=CjwKC...KrCMpKovecNR5sKHwPKymPTCDDWYqZMxoC6UIQAvD_BwE

I remind readers that the mind is part of the soul....
It is NOT a material part belonging to the BODY
and it is NOT a part of the spirit of man.
Every person has a soul and most probably every animal has a soul...(this can be debated).

What is a soul? And God formed the man from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath (spirit) of life into his nostrils and the man became a living soul. So, a soul is the body and the breath or spirit of life from God. What did the author say?

"The mind, spirit, or soul is considered the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain"

As you typed and the link stated:
"SPIRIT OR SOUL" As I've been saying, some link the two together. This cannot be considered wrong.
Do YOU believe the spirit of God within man is in EVERY MAN?
Is it not the part in us that connects us to God?

1 Corinthians 2:10-16
10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 1
2Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.fff

The man without the breath/spirit of God is an inanimate object. What did it take for the man to become a living, conscious, soul? The spirit of God.

Surely a spirit is in man, And the breath of the Mighty One Doth cause them to understand. (Job 32:8 YLT)

What gives man understanding? The spirit of the Mighty One. There is a spirit in man, the breath of life, and that spirit is of the Might One, and it gives man understanding. It gives man consciousness, it gives man life. A brain without the breath/spirit of life can do nothing. A brain with the breath/spirit of God is conscious.

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4 KJV)

The spirit of life gave Job life.

God gave Adam the breath of life and Adam became a living being.

God gave the breath of life....
Genesis 2:7

God also commanded the plants and animals and man to reproduce after their own kind.
Genesis 1:21-22
21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

Genesis 1:24
24Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.

Genesis 1:28
28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Genesis 1:29
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;


God said that every animal would reproduce after its own kind...man would do the same...and plants would do the same with plant yielding seed.

Each to multiply on its own....God began life and sustains life...
but we multiply with the gift He has given us which is the ability to reproduce ourselves.

God does not breath into many anymore...He did this one time to give man life.

As we understand the spirit in the N.T.....it is the spirit of God, persons not born again do not have the spirit of God.
Romans 8:16
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Are the unsaved children of God?

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.1
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.1
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.1 (Eph. 4:21-29 KJV)

The spirit of your mind. The breath of your mind. What made Adam come alive? The spirit of life. His mind came to life when it was infused with the spirit of life. The spirit of the mind, the spirit of life. The spirit of the mind, the spirit that animates the mind, what is it? It's the breath of life.

I agree with the above.
But it mixes spirit, mind, breath of life....
These must be separated and explained if we're to make others understand our faith...
The trichotomy of man is very easy to understand and is biblical.
Again...
1 Thessalonians 5:23
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You may have verses for your beliefs, as I've also quoted many verses....but using logic, as you say, the above verse must be explained in a clear and concise way that is easy to grasp.
God does not mean for us to be confused.

 

[Butch5]

Lazarus and the Rich Man

Why did Jesus say the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen?
Why did He say the Rich Man had five brothers?
Why did He say Lazarus was poor?
Why did He say Lazarus was covered with sores?
Why did Jesus say Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom? Why not Moses, Isaac, Jacob, or David?
Why was Lazarus taken to Abraham's bosom rather than just in Abraham's presence?
Why was Lazarus taken by angels
Why didn't Jesus say whether or not Lazarus was a believer, saved, or righteous?
Why didn't Jesus say whether or not the Rich Man was an unbeliever, lost, or wicked?
Why doesn't Jesus mention the words soul or spirit in this parable?
Do the poor get saved and the rich don't?
Why did Jesus say that the dogs licked Lazarus' sores?
Why did Abraham say to the Rich Man, his brothers have Moses and the prophets?
If this is about the after life why didn't he say believe in Jesus?
What would Moses and the prophets have to offer for salvation?
Did salvation come by the Law?
Why did Abraham say to the Rich Man, if they won't believe Moses and the prophets they won't believe if one rose from the dead?

Did Jesus give all of these details "just because" or do they have something to do with the parable. If the parable is about the afterlife why does it matter that the rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen? Why would it matter if he had five brother or six? Why would it matter whether Lazarus had sores or not? These things would have no bearing if the parable is about the afterlife. Jesus got pretty detailed on the clothing. What does purple and fine linen have to do with the afterlife? It's a pretty detailed parable if the point is just to say when one dies some part of them lives on and goes to Heaven of Hell. He could have just said that.

 

[JLB]

Of these passages only two mention hell and fire and in both hell is Gehenna. The Rich Man was not in Gehenna he was in Hades.

Can you show anywhere in Scripture where someone is suffering in fire in Hades other than the passage in question?

Hades is another Greek word for hell.

Hell is a literal place with fire, where people go and are tormented.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


My question to you is:


Do you believe hell is a literal lace where people are tormented in fire?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Lazarus and the Rich Man

Why did Jesus say the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen?
Why did He say the Rich Man had five brothers?
Why did He say Lazarus was poor?
Why did He say Lazarus was covered with sores?
Why did Jesus say Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom? Why not Moses, Isaac, Jacob, or David?
Why was Lazarus taken to Abraham's bosom rather than just in Abraham's presence?
Why was Lazarus taken by angels
Why didn't Jesus say whether or not Lazarus was a believer, saved, or righteous?
Why didn't Jesus say whether or not the Rich Man was an unbeliever, lost, or wicked?
Why doesn't Jesus mention the words soul or spirit in this parable?
Do the poor get saved and the rich don't?
Why did Jesus say that the dogs licked Lazarus' sores?
Why did Abraham say to the Rich Man, his brothers have Moses and the prophets?
If this is about the after life why didn't he say believe in Jesus?
What would Moses and the prophets have to offer for salvation?
Did salvation come by the Law?
Why did Abraham say to the Rich Man, if they won't believe Moses and the prophets they won't believe if one rose from the dead?

Did Jesus give all of these details "just because" or do they have something to do with the parable. If the parable is about the afterlife why does it matter that the rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen? Why would it matter if he had five brother or six? Why would it matter whether Lazarus had sores or not? These things would have no bearing if the parable is about the afterlife. Jesus got pretty detailed on the clothing. What does purple and fine linen have to do with the afterlife? It's a pretty detailed parable if the point is just to say when one dies some part of them lives on and goes to Heaven of Hell. He could have just said that.

Why was the rich man in hell being tormented in fire?



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Yes...I did read it.
It agrees with what I've been saying:
The brain and the mind are different.
The brain is a physical part of our body...
The mind is NOT.
The brain is where the mind resides....the link agrees.
The mind, spirit or soul is the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain.
Exactly.
Are sound waves visible? NO.
You only know they're present because you hear something....

What is the mind?

“The Basic Theory of the Mind” is a physical theory about the mind and its phenomena, such as consciousness and qualia. It also involves related matters, including the hard problem of consciousness, the explanatory gap, variable qualia, p-zombies, and free will. This theory is a scientifically verifiable theory – it is based on physical evidence and has experimentally testable predictions.

source: https://mindtheory.net/?gclid=CjwKC...KrCMpKovecNR5sKHwPKymPTCDDWYqZMxoC6UIQAvD_BwE

I remind readers that the mind is part of the soul....
It is NOT a material part belonging to the BODY
and it is NOT a part of the spirit of man.
Every person has a soul and most probably every animal has a soul...(this can be debated).



As you typed and the link stated:
"SPIRIT OR SOUL" As I've been saying, some link the two together. This cannot be considered wrong.
Do YOU believe the spirit of God within man is in EVERY MAN?
Is it not the part in us that connects us to God?

1 Corinthians 2:10-16
10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 1
2Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.fff


God gave Adam the breath of life and Adam became a living being.

God gave the breath of life....
Genesis 2:7

God also commanded the plants and animals and man to reproduce after their own kind.
Genesis 1:21-22
21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

Genesis 1:24
24Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.

Genesis 1:28
28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Genesis 1:29
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;


God said that every animal would reproduce after its own kind...man would do the same...and plants would do the same with plant yielding seed.

Each to multiply on its own....God began life and sustains life...
but we multiply with the gift He has given us which is the ability to reproduce ourselves.

God does not breath into many anymore...He did this one time to give man life.

As we understand the spirit in the N.T.....it is the spirit of God, persons not born again do not have the spirit of God.
Romans 8:16
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Are the unsaved children of God?



I agree with the above.
But it mixes spirit, mind, breath of life....
These must be separated and explained if we're to make others understand our faith...
The trichotomy of man is very easy to understand and is biblical.
Again...
1 Thessalonians 5:23
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You may have verses for your beliefs, as I've also quoted many verses....but using logic, as you say, the above verse must be explained in a clear and concise way that is easy to grasp.
God does not mean for us to be confused.

What I explained above is logical and it fits perfectly with Scripture. What you've presented is someone's opinion. You can't prove what you posted. I don't think we
are going to make any headway because it seems you disagree with too many passages of Scripture.

You said,

"God does not breath into many anymore...He did this one time to give man life."

Scripture says,

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (Isa. 42:5 KJV)

Giveth, present tense.

You said,

"As we understand the spirit in the N.T.....it is the spirit of God, persons not born again do not have the spirit of God."

Scripture says,

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (Isa. 42:5 KJV)

And I, behold, I do bring the flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is in the earth shall die. (Gen. 6:17 ASV)
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life. (Gen. 7:15 ASV)

 

[Butch5]

Hades is another Greek word for hell.

Hell is a literal place with fire, where people go and are tormented.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


My question to you is:


Do you believe hell is a literal lace where people are tormented in fire?



JLB

You're equivocating which is why I asked you to specify. The word hell is an English word. It doesn't appear in the Greek or Hebrew texts. Please specify. Also, please show those passages where people are burning in Hades.

 

[Butch5]

Why was the rich man in hell being tormented in fire?



JLB

I'll bet you can't answer that question.

 

[JLB]

You're equivocating which is why I asked you to specify. The word hell is an English word. It doesn't appear in the Greek or Hebrew texts. Please specify. Also, please show those passages where people are burning in Hades.

Butch it’s a yes or no.

Your free to believe whatever you want.

I’m just trying to find out what you believe.


Do you believe in a literal hell with fire?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'll bet you can't answer that question.

Because the Lord sentenced him there.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Because the Lord sentenced him there.


JLB

Where do you see that anywhere in the passage?