What is a man?

[Butch5]

Abraham was gathered to his people, not dead in the grave.

Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people.
Genesis 25:8


The reason we know Abraham died physically but not spiritually is Jesus said these word about him specifically —


I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Matthew 22:32

We know Abraham died and was buried, so if Jesus says he is living then we know it’s not physically, which is to say, his physical body is dead.

Jesus also spoke specifically again about Abraham, when he taught us about life after (physical) death in His teaching about the rich man and Lazarus.


So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. Luke 16:22

We see that Lazarus was carried by the angels to where Abraham was.


the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, verse 23


We see that the rich man died and was buried, but he ended up in hell and was being tormented in the fire.


he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

• In hell he could recognize Abraham, and see him and Lazarus.
• He could speak.
• He experienced torment and pain.

But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:26

• We see that Abraham could hear the rich man.
• We see that Abraham could speak
• We see that Abraham had awareness of the rich man’s past life as well as Lazarus, recounting it to him.

“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.
Luke 16:27-28


We see that the rich man had awareness and concern for his family, which are faculties of the human soul.


Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Luke 16:29-30


Abraham understood Moses law even though he died before Moses was born.

Who taught him these these things?

How can a dead soul learn and understand these things having never learned them in his physical life, except by the Spirit of Christ who was in him?


Jesus is teaching us about life after death.



JLB

It's a parable. I've given numerous reasons why it should be understood as a parable. The parable starts, there was a certain rich man.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (Lk. 16:19 KJV)

Look at the parable before that one. It starts.

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. (Lk. 16:1 KJV)

Look at the parable before that one.

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
(Lk. 15:11-12 KJV)

He even starts the discussion with these words.

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
(Lk. 15:1-4 KJV)

Regarding the statement about God being the God of the living, the passage is about the Resurrection, not their current state.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt. 22:31-32 KJV)

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
(Lk. 20:37-38 KJV)

Luke records that Moses' statement that, God is the God of the living, proves the Resurrection. That's the point Jesus was making. He was not speaking to the current state of those men. Also, as I've already shown. Jesus uses the living and the dead to address classes of people.

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Matt. 8:21-22 KJV)

I don't think anyone thought Jesus meant that dead people were going to come up out of the ground and bury other dead people. No, He's using "the dead" to classify a group of people. However, these people are very much alive.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not going beyond what you say. You might want to think this through a little more. Above you made this statement.

"My position is that the bible is to be TAKEN LITERALLY."

In post 177 you made this statement.

"The O.T. is an inspired book(s).
But I do not believe it is meant to be taken literally, even though it should be translated literally. We need to interpret it correctly. "

I highlighted the above
The OT is part of the Bible. In one post you say it shouldn't be taken literally and in another you say it should be.

And I apologized because I mis-spoke.
I'll look for the post if you wish.

I was probably referring to something you said that is not to be taken literally...such as being in Abraham's bossom does not mean we are in his chest.

What does eternal life mean?
John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

What does John 11:25 mean

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Matthew 10:28 the body and soul are divided
28“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 23:42-43
42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Philippians 1:23
23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.


There are many more verses such as the above.
Every one regarding the body has to do with the bodily resurrection and not life immediately after death.

 

[JLB]

It's a parable. I've given numerous reasons why it should be understood as a parable. The parable starts, there was a certain rich man.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (Lk. 16:19 KJV)

Look at the parable before that one. It starts.

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. (Lk. 16:1 KJV)

Look at the parable before that one.

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
(Lk. 15:11-12 KJV)

He even starts the discussion with these words.

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
(Lk. 15:1-4 KJV)

Regarding the statement about God being the God of the living, the passage is about the Resurrection, not their current state.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt. 22:31-32 KJV)

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
(Lk. 20:37-38 KJV)

Luke records that Moses' statement that, God is the God of the living, proves the Resurrection. That's the point Jesus was making. He was not speaking to the current state of those men. Also, as I've already shown. Jesus uses the living and the dead to address classes of people.

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Matt. 8:21-22 KJV)

I don't think anyone thought Jesus meant that dead people were going to come up out of the ground and bury other dead people. No, He's using "the dead" to classify a group of people. However, these people are very much alive.

It’s certainly not a parable, nevertheless it doesn’t make the words of Jesus Christ any less true.

Jesus plainly mentioned literal people as well as the words these people said.


Your choice to believe His words or not.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

And I apologized because I mis-spoke.
I'll look for the post if you wish.

I was probably referring to something you said that is not to be taken literally...such as being in Abraham's bossom does not mean we are in his chest.

What does eternal life mean?
John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

What does John 11:25 mean

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Matthew 10:28 the body and soul are divided
28“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 23:42-43
42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Philippians 1:23
23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.


There are many more verses such as the above.
Every one regarding the body has to do with the bodily resurrection and not life immediately after death.

Have you eve considered that maybe you're misunderstanding those passages? For instance, John 11:25.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. (Jn. 11:25 NKJ)

Look at what He said. Firstly, He's talking about the Resurrection, He says nothing here about the state of the dead. He says even if one dies, he shall live. "Shall live" is future tense. In other words, even if he dies, he will live in the future. He doesn't say even if he dies he will continue to live. He says, even if someone dies they will live in the future. That is what resurrection is. It's when a person dies and later is brought to life. There is nothing in this passage about living on as a disembodied consciousness after death.

 

[Butch5]

It’s certainly not a parable, nevertheless it doesn’t make the words of Jesus Christ any less true.

Jesus plainly mentioned literal people as well as the words these people said.


Your choice to believe His words or not.


JLB

All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them: (Matt. 13:34 ASV)

Your choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, what we believe are our preconceptions. As I said, the creation scientist looks at the evidence with the preconception that God exists and make his conclusion. The Evolutionist looks at the same evidence with the preconception that God doesn't exist and comes to a different conclusion. Same evidence two opposing occlusions at least one is wrong. If one comes to the Bible with the idea that the dead are alive, that's how they will interpret the text. If one comes to the text believing the dead are dead that's how they will interpret the text. Two opposing views, at least one of them is wrong. The question is which one does the Bible teach. That's pretty easy to determine as the we find that in the Bible people die. There is nothing in the Bible that say dead people aren't really dead. Nothing that says the soul lives on. Nothing that says dead people are, in heaven, with Jesus, or with God. This idea came into the Christian faith from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

Jesus said that even if we die we will be alive...
Luke 23:42-43 The comma is in the correct place. Jesus knew He was speaking that day, and never used the expression before as to WHEN He was speaking.

John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

What does this mean....
The person that believes in Jesus will live even IF HE DIES.
Even if the person dies PHYSICALLY,,,he will still live...he will still be alive.

Those who believe in Jesus WILL NEVER DIE.
Never die means that I will live even after death...
my body will die,,,but I will not die.
The I is my soul and my spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:23....BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT

You speak of theologians as though they are an authority on what is and isn't correct. I I believe you're Catholic, correct? Do you believe that the Protestant theologians are correct? Do you believe that the Protestant theologians who teach that, people were chosen before time to be saved, have no part in their salvation, and can't lose their salvation? Do you believe every theologian. If you don't then your argument is null and void. Because just like the theologians you disagree with you think are wrong, so too, the ones you agree with can be wrong. I would go so far as to say stay away from theologians. Most of them are wrong. They just spout the theology of whatever seminary they were taught at. A Catholic theologian espouses Catholic theology, a Methodist, Methodist theology, a Baptist, Baptist theology and on down line. So, no, we can't just rely on theologians.

No, I'm not Catholic.
I used to be. And before leaving that church I had to study well what I believed. I had to leave all my preconceived notions aside and begin from the beginning. So I know very well what it means to READ WHAT THE BIBLE affirms and then come to a well-informed conclusion that is based on the written word and what different scholars believe. I must be true to myself.

Sure...they learn from the seminary they went to.
But I didn't go to any seminary....but must admit they know more than I ever will....

But I cannot agree with all of them...
And must remain true to my belief since that is what I will be judged upon.

And, yes people do make up their own theology. That's why there are so many different denominations and beliefs among Christians.

Rather unfortunate, isn't it?
This is known as eisegesis and is NOT acceptable.

My theology is based on a four part hermeneutic, the absolute authority of Scripture, Grammatical/Historical interpretation, sound logic, and historical precedent. And yes, I have studied this subject for years.

If we base our belief on the absolute authority of scripture, why don't we all agree? And why does your belief differ so much from other Christians on this thread.....

There is nowhere in Scripture that states Abraham's bosom is place. Jesus said that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom. In the parable Lazarus was carried to the man Abraham and was placed in his bosom. It's a picture of being in a close relationship with Abraham. If I said I took the baby and placed it in it's mother's bosom, surely people wouldn't get on Google and try to locate place called, "It's mother bosom". Surely they would understand that I placed the baby in it's mother's arms resting on the chest area. There's nothing in Scripture to warrant calling Abraham's bosom a location in Hades except a misunderstanding of the "Parable" of Lazarus and the Rich Man. And, even that doesn't require it because, it simply means Lazarus was in Abraham's embrace.

He was in Abraham's embrace....OK.
But where were they?
Where is Hades?

I think this pretty much puts an end to the discussion. I hold the Bible as the final authority, It seems you disagree with some of the Bible. You say a soul can't die, the Bible says it can. You say Abraham's bosom is a place in Hades, yet we see that Hagar was in Abraham's bosom alive and on earth, but, you disagree with that.

I would like you to know that I read about this from time to time and it's not an easy subject.

I have to maintain that if the soul dies....and the spirit goes to be with God....I see a conflict.

So basically....
I believe our body dies....
I believe our soul and spirit go to be with God.
At the resurrection we will receive our glorified body and all 3 will be joined again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you eve considered that maybe you're misunderstanding those passages? For instance, John 11:25.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. (Jn. 11:25 NKJ)

Look at what He said. Firstly, He's talking about the Resurrection, He says nothing here about the state of the dead. He says even if one dies, he shall live. "Shall live" is future tense. In other words, even if he dies, he will live in the future. He doesn't say even if he dies he will continue to live. He says, even if someone dies they will live in the future. That is what resurrection is. It's when a person dies and later is brought to life. There is nothing in this passage about living on as a disembodied consciousness after death.

Yes, of course I've considered this.
But have you checked out different bibles?
The KJV is not always the same as other bibles,,,
and, I dare say, it's not the most accurate.

Let's concentrate on John 11:25 for a moment.
The YLT seems to agree with the following:

John 11:25-26 NASB
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

In verse 23 Jesus tells Martha that Lazaarus will rise again.
Verse 24 Martha tells Jesus that she knows L will rise again in THE RESURRECTION...in the last day in the future.

Jesus responds: I AM THE RESURRECTION.
IOW,,, the resurrection is present right now.
And then Jesus raises L from the dead,,,,at that time.

Verse 25 Jesus tells M that those that believe in Him,,,,will LIVE EVEN IF THEY DIE......this means NOW, at the present time. (the word shall can either mean NOW or in the future. He SHALL go to the store can mean RIGHT NOW or at some time in the future).

Verse 26 Jesus tells M those that believe in HIM WILL NEVER DIE.
He even asks her if she believes this.

What does NEVER DIE mean to you??
Surely it means that we never die....life CONTINUES even after death.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some say the soul is the mind, will, and/or emotions. However, that can't be. Let's look at a few passages.

My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God. (Ps. 84:2 KJV)

Longing is an emotion, it's yearning. Notice in this passage longing is something the soul does, not what the soul is. If the soul was emotion the it would be the act of longing. It's not. It's something that the soul does.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. (Jn. 12:27 KJV)

Jesus' soul was troubled. Troubled means, upset, concerned, or worried. It's an emotion. Here again, notice that it's something the soul does, not what it is.

Now therefore, O king, come down according to all the desire of thy soul to come down; and our part shall be to deliver him into the king's hand. (1 Sam. 23:20 KJV)

Desire has to do with the will. Here the soul desires. Again, desire is something that soul does, not what it is.

That the soul to can desire, be happy, long, etc shows that these are things that the soul does. They are not what the soul is. So, who does these things and who are these passages talking about. They're talking about people. The soul is a living being. People desire, people, long, people are trouble.

Just saw this.
What part of the person:
LONGS
IS TROUBLED
DESIRES

 

[Randy]

We know that our body—the tent we live in here on earth—will be destroyed. But when that happens, God will have a house for us. It will not be a house made by human hands; instead, it will be a home in heaven that will last forever

 

[Randy]

Have you eve considered that maybe you're misunderstanding those passages? For instance, John 11:25.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. (Jn. 11:25 NKJ)

Look at what He said. Firstly, He's talking about the Resurrection, He says nothing here about the state of the dead. He says even if one dies, he shall live. "Shall live" is future tense. In other words, even if he dies, he will live in the future. He doesn't say even if he dies he will continue to live. He says, even if someone dies they will live in the future. That is what resurrection is. It's when a person dies and later is brought to life. There is nothing in this passage about living on as a disembodied consciousness after death.

Do you believe Jesus was dead before He was resurrected?

 

[jasonc]

The man tyndale whom the kjv based its translation of the nt,upon to,English was one who believed in,soul,sleep.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus said that even if we die we will be alive...
Luke 23:42-43 The comma is in the correct place. Jesus knew He was speaking that day, and never used the expression before as to WHEN He was speaking.

John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

What does this mean....
The person that believes in Jesus will live even IF HE DIES.
Even if the person dies PHYSICALLY,,,he will still live...he will still be alive.

Those who believe in Jesus WILL NEVER DIE.
Never die means that I will live even after death...
my body will die,,,but I will not die.
The I is my soul and my spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:23....BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT

Look at what you wrote.

"Those who believe in Jesus WILL NEVER DIE.
Never die means that I will live even after death..."

You said those who believe never die and then you acknowledged death. This seems to be a contradiction. It is. In order to remedy this many people simply insert the word body. It's the body that dies. But, maybe there's another understanding or maybe one is misunderstanding the passage. Again, He's talking about the resurrection. Resurrection means to bring to life that which has died. Look at what He said,

"John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."

You underlined, "will live even if he dies". As I pointed out will live or shall live is in the future tense. It means he will live in the future. Then he says everyone who lives and believes will never die. Look at the order of events. Someone believes, he dies, he shall live and this one who "shall live", in the future, the one who has been raised, will never die. It's the resurrected believer that never dies. Jesus states right in the passage that the believer may die. However, shall live is in the context of resurrection. There is nothing in this passage that hints at life as a disembodied consciousness.

No, I'm not Catholic.
I used to be. And before leaving that church I had to study well what I believed. I had to leave all my preconceived notions aside and begin from the beginning. So I know very well what it means to READ WHAT THE BIBLE affirms and then come to a well-informed conclusion that is based on the written word and what different scholars believe. I must be true to myself.

Sure...they learn from the seminary they went to.
But I didn't go to any seminary....but must admit they know more than I ever will....

But I cannot agree with all of them...
And must remain true to my belief since that is what I will be judged upon.

It's always good to challenge what we believe. I think you would agree that Scholars can be in error. I would submit the majority are on certain doctrines. I don't think "scholars" necessarily know more than one ever will. They may know more about a particular theological system, but that doesn't mean they know more about the Bible.

If we base our belief on the absolute authority of scripture, why don't we all agree? And why does your belief differ so much from other Christians on this thread.....

We don't all agree because we bring different beliefs or preconceptions to the text. Most people in the world, whether Christian or not, believe that at death some part of them lives on. It's been that way for centuries. In Jesus' day many Greeks believed Plato's philosophy that the goal of the spirit was to escape the flesh and ascend into the heavens. Before that the Egyptians believed their kings went to a conscious existence after death. It's no different today. If all of these people come to the Bible with the preconception that the dead simply continue on after the body dies, how are they going to see passages such as, Lazarus and the Rich Man, The Transfiguration, or the souls under the altar? They're going to see them as actual events because they believe that the dead continue on after the body dies. They then post these passages as proof that the dead live on, but, it's only proof to them because they already believe this. It's actually a logical fallacy known as Begging the Question or Circular reasoning. It goes something like this.

Premise. The dead live on after death.

Then they post a passage about Lazarus and the Rich Man and say this is proof.

Conclusion. The dead live on after death

Do you see the premise and conclusion are the same? The conclusion is just a restatement of the premise. In actuality they haven't proven anything. They've just restated their premise. Let me give you another example in case this isn't clear.

John: The Bible is God's word
Tim: prove it
John: The Bible says it's God's word.

So, one reason we don't all agree is preconceptions. There are other reasons. Some people don't study the history of the church. Some don't know the original languages and rely on others etc. I used to let others study for me. I believed much of what people have been posting. However, I learned that letting other, pastors and theologians, study for me only lead to confusion and error. Some pastors taught me one thing and some taught the exact opposite. I quickly learned that no matter how much they study, if they're wrong they're wrong. If someone studies something that is wrong for 8 hours a day, they're still wrong. I also see theologians that teach completely opposite things. That means that at least one of them is wrong. So, If I know that there are theologians and pastors out there that are teaching things that are wrong I'm going to question everything the say. I'm not going to assume what they say is true just because they have a few letters after their name. I'm also not going to assume they are smarter than me, another mistake made in the past. Because of these things I began to question everything I believed about the Bible. I put everything on the table and any doctrine that couldn't stand got tossed. So, the reason what I believe is different than many is because I don't take the words of translators and theologians without confirmation. I check what they say. Does it align with Scripture? Does it makes sense? Is it logical? I also look for logical fallacies or errors in their reasoning. I read the Bible literally unless there is reason think something is figurative. If I have to start adding things to make a doctrines work. I question the doctrine not the Scriptures.

He was in Abraham's embrace....OK.
But where were they?
Where is Hades?

In the grave. Jesus said the rich man was buried, and in Hades he lifted up his eyes. That statement equates being buried with being in Hades

I would like you to know that I read about this from time to time and it's not an easy subject.

I have to maintain that if the soul dies....and the spirit goes to be with God....I see a conflict.

So basically....
I believe our body dies....
I believe our soul and spirit go to be with God.
At the resurrection we will receive our glorified body and all 3 will be joined again.

Again, I would submit that it's not really a difficult subject if we approach it from what the Bible says about these terms. If we let the Bible define the words, body, soul ,and spirit it clarifies the subject. If we approach it from the idea that the dead are alive it will never be settled.

I believe the soul dies and see no conflict whatsoever. Where I see the conflict is claiming it lives on.

 

[Butch5]

Do you believe Jesus was dead before He was resurrected?

Yes, He died on the cross.

 

[Butch5]

The man tyndale whom the kjv based its translation of the nt,upon to,English was one who believed in,soul,sleep.

I don't.

 

[JLB]

All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them: (Matt. 13:34 ASV)

Your choice.

Brother, “these things” refers to the things in Matthew 13, the verse you quoted, not Luke 16.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Many people people believe that when a person dies it's just he body that dies and that the spirit and/or soul continues to live on and is that person. As proof of this they will often point to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. This supposedly shows that some immaterial part of man lives on after death. The problem is that in this parable the "supposed" immaterial beings have bodies. I thought they left those. In the parable we see that the Rich Man "sees" Abraham and Lazarus. How does one see something that is immaterial? How does one see without eyes. The eyes were in the body. How does one speak without a mouth, that too, was on the body. How does an immaterial being have fingers, another part of the body. It seems odd that these immaterial beings have so many body parts. How can this be?

Could it be that instead of some subterranean location in the heart of the earth, Hades is the grave and the rich man is in the grave? Jesus equates the rich man's being buried with be in the grave.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. 23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:1 ASV)

Brother, “these things” refers to the things in Matthew 13, the verse you quoted, not Luke 16.



JLB

The passage says thst Jesus didn't spesk ti the multitudes of the Jews except in parables

 

[JLB]

The problem is that in this parable the "supposed" immaterial beings have bodies. I thought they left those.

Jesus did not say they have bodies.

You assume the inner man is immaterial, and has no shape, whereas this teaching shows us the spirit man continues to exist either in a place of blessing experiencing comfort or in hell experiencing torment.


The teaching shows us Abraham had knowledge and awareness of who the rich man was and how he had lived his life.


Jesus is teaching about our life after death of the physical body.




JLB

 

[jasonc]

I don't.

You claim differently.

The doctrine of soul,sleep believes that there is no,immediate awareness after death,the soul return to God ,and the person ceases to exist until the ressurection .usually,accompanied by,the belief there isn't he'll.

Original version had a semi conscience state as taught by,eusibis.

 

[Butch5]

Just saw this.
What part of the person:
LONGS
IS TROUBLED
DESIRES

Your question assumes there's more than one part.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus did not say they have bodies.

You assume the inner man is immaterial, and has no shape, whereas this teaching shows us the spirit man continues to exist either in a place of blessing experiencing comfort or in hell experiencing torment.


The teaching shows us Abraham had knowledge and awareness of who the rich man was and how he had lived his life.


Jesus is teaching about our life after death of the physical body.




JLB

It's a parable. Jesus didn't say anything about anyone's afterlife. There are three people mentioned, Abraham, Lazarus, and a rich man. There's nothing about anyone else in this parable. Jesus didn't say this is what happens when people die. It's seems you're imposing something on the passage