What is a man?

[Butch5]

You claim differently.

The doctrine of soul,sleep believes that there is no,immediate awareness after death,the soul return to God ,and the person ceases to exist until the ressurection .usually,accompanied by,the belief there isn't he'll.

Original version had a semi conscience state as taught by,eusibis.

I don't believe the soul returns to God. The spirit, which is of God, returns to Him. The body to dust, and the soul ceases to exist. That's clear from Gen 2 and Ecc 3.

 

[Butch5]

There have been millions of people who have died. Can someone please suggest a location where I might go and have a discussion with some of these people so we can put this to rest?

 

[LovethroughDove]

Could it be that instead of some subterranean location in the heart of the earth, Hades is the grave and the rich man is in the grave? Jesus equates the rich man's being buried with be in the grave.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. 23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:1 ASV)

Luke 16:24"So he called to him,'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

The grave isn't hot.

 

[LovethroughDove]

There have been millions of people who have died. Can someone please suggest a location where I might go and have a discussion with some of these people so we can put this to rest?

Just look up near death experiences and the soul moves on (to heaven or hell). People have been to the literal hell.

 

[Butch5]

Just look up near death experiences and the soul moves on (to heaven or hell). People have been to the literal hell.

So, the "experiences" of people who didn't die supposedly tell us what happens when we die? It's dead people I'd like to talk to not living ones.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your question assumes there's more than one part.

Well, of course!
YOU said that we have these feelings or emotions.

WHERE DO THEY RESIDE?
In the BODY
In the SOUL
In the SPIRIT
??

I've been saying since page 1 that I believe we are made of 3 parts:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

(your post no. 232 must wait till after my dinner).



You said in your post no. 206 that we have these emotions or feelings. Where are they in this tent of ours?




OR
It could be two parts
BODY
SOUL/SPIRIT

But, in any case, it must be 3.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, the "experiences" of people who didn't die supposedly tell us what happens when we die? It's dead people I'd like to talk to not living ones.

LovethroughDove can speak for herself, but what she's getting at is that we're STILL ALIVE at death. ** Our BODY dies,,,but WE do not.
But what is WE ?? You say our spirit goes to heaven....are we in our spirit? Is this where the ego is located...that thing that let's us each be an individual before God....He knew us before we were born....certainly each one of us is unique?

** I see you have a problem with this statement as per your post 232, but I must go till later.

 

[jasonc]

I don't believe the soul returns to God. The spirit, which is of God, returns to Him. The body to dust, and the soul ceases to exist. That's clear from Gen 2 and Ecc 3.

As exactly taught by the concept of soul sleep.
You think only,little you,have come up,with these and that these debates are recent.

No.they aren't .

If you,are going to quote that then you,up on,ressurection won't know who you,are


For the dead remember not ,forget ...

Soul Sleep Disproved | Soul Sleep in the Bible

What Happens When You Die? Is soul sleep in the bible? In this article you will find soul sleep debunked and the soul sleep heresy refuted by Scripture.

www.christiananswerman.com

Word,for word on,your quotes.

I,was raised on,that doctrine.also I know from,the Talmud that the rabbis then and many know believe sheol to have a places for the righteous and judged .

Burying my relatives I recited the kaddish and wanted to know where that came from,1st century bc.

 

[Butch5]

Luke 16:24"So he called to him,'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

The grave isn't hot.

Neither is Hades. This parable is the only place in the Bible where someone is burning in Hades. Jesus said that Gehenna is where the wicked would be cast.

So, why is the rich man suffering in Hades? Note first that he's a Jew. He calls Abraham his father. Remember who Jesus is talking to, the Pharisees and Scribes. The leaders of Israel. So, do we see anything in Scripture about burning in Hades?

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:22 KJV)

The word hell in this passage is Hades. This is from the Song of Moses. It's a description of what would happen to Israel when they turned away from God. So, what is it that's burning in Hades that the rich man, the Jew, is suffering? It's God's anger. The flame the rich man feels is God's anger.

Look through the Scriptures see if you can find anything else that speaks of fire in Hades. Hades isn't a place of fire, that's Gehenna.

 

[Butch5]

Well, of course!
YOU said that we have these feelings or emotions.

WHERE DO THEY RESIDE?
In the BODY
In the SOUL
In the SPIRIT
??

I've been saying since page 1 that I believe we are made of 3 parts:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

(your post no. 232 must wait till after my dinner).



You said in your post no. 206 that we have these emotions or feelings. Where are they in this tent of ours?




OR
It could be two parts
BODY
SOUL/SPIRIT

But, in any case, it must be 3.

Please reply to YOUR post no.

I stated in the OP that man is a flesh being, that is infused with the breath or spirit of God, and that these two things combined to form a living soul. Thus a living soul consists of the flesh being and the breath of God. Since the breath of God "isn't man" they can only reside in the man. They can reside in the Soul because a man is a living soul as long as he has the breath of God in him. But the emotions stem from the man. They are functions in the brain.

LovethroughDove can speak for herself, but what she's getting at is that we're STILL ALIVE at death. ** Our BODY dies,,,but WE do not.
But what is WE ?? You say our spirit goes to heaven....are we in our spirit? Is this where the ego is located...that thing that let's us each be an individual before God....He knew us before we were born....certainly each one of us is unique?

** I see you have a problem with this statement as per your post 232, but I must go till later.

I don't have a problem with any statement. I am a little confused as to why you're asking questions again that I've already answered for you.

 

[Butch5]

As exactly taught by the concept of soul sleep.
You think only,little you,have come up,with these and that these debates are recent.

No.they aren't .

If you,are going to quote that then you,up on,ressurection won't know who you,are


For the dead remember not ,forget ...

Soul Sleep Disproved | Soul Sleep in the Bible

What Happens When You Die? Is soul sleep in the bible? In this article you will find soul sleep debunked and the soul sleep heresy refuted by Scripture.

www.christiananswerman.com

Word,for word on,your quotes.

I,was raised on,that doctrine.also I know from,the Talmud that the rabbis then and many know believe sheol to have a places for the righteous and judged .

Burying my relatives I recited the kaddish and wanted to know where that came from,1st century bc.

You want me to take the word of the author of that article? It's full of errors. He quotes Lazarus and the Rich Man and says Jesus is talking of Heaven and Hell. Jesus never mentioned Heaven, nor hell He said Hades.

Here's a quote from his article,

"The overwhelming teaching of scripture disavows soul sleep and strongly supports the belief that man has an immortal soul which continues consciously after death. "

The overwhelming teaching of Scripture strongly supports the belief that man has an immortal soul? Really? I wonder if he thinks Paul was liar.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

According to Paul, the Father alone has immortality. There goes his overwhelming teaching idea. There goes his immortal soul doctrine. The Father alone. That means no one else.

Here's another,


"Thus, Christians who die immediately enjoy the glories of heaven and the loving presence of Jesus and the fellowship of our loved ones who have previously died in Christ. The scripture clearly states that we will all know each other and will have our memories intact in regard to our life on earth.

This has been the faith of the Church from the time of the apostles until today."

That's been the Christian faith from the time of the apostles until today? The apostles didn't believe that. The apostle Paul speaking of Christians, those who had died in Christ, said.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

If there is no resurrection, then those who had died in Christ had perished. What? I though that guy said Paul believed they were enjoying the glories of Heaven and loving the presence of Jesus and the fellowship of their loved ones. I wonder if maybe he doesn't accept Paul as an apostle. None of the apostles rejected Paul's preaching. This shows us that they were in agreement. So, if Paul didn't teach these people were in Heaven, neither did the others. The author starts out to disprove what he calls "Soul Sleep" and his words show that his own doctrine is not Biblical.

Here's another,

"Here Jesus tells a story of souls in heaven and hell immediately after death. It matters not whether this is considered a parable or is accepted as a true historical account of what happened to two men. Either way, Jesus still used imagery that disproves soul sleep. If the soul did not continue consciously after death, then Jesus would be guilty of teaching a falsehood in this account, for here we see the souls of these men immediately going to Paradise or Hell upon death, where they are conscious and have their memories in eternity. "

Above he says "If the soul did not continue consciously after death, then Jesus would be guilty of teaching a falsehood in this account". This is a fallacy known as the "False Dilemma". It's leave only two options when there could be more. Either Jesus is telling the truth or He's lying. The author overlooks the a third option, that Jesus is telling a story

Those were the errors in just the first few chapters. There's no point in continuing with the rest of the article. Not to mention that He's biased on top of that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Neither is Hades. This parable is the only place in the Bible where someone is burning in Hades. Jesus said that Gehenna is where the wicked would be cast.

So, why is the rich man suffering in Hades? Note first that he's a Jew. He calls Abraham his father. Remember who Jesus is talking to, the Pharisees and Scribes. The leaders of Israel. So, do we see anything in Scripture about burning in Hades?

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:22 KJV)

The word hell in this passage is Hades. This is from the Song of Moses. It's a description of what would happen to Israel when they turned away from God. So, what is it that's burning in Hades that the rich man, the Jew, is suffering? It's God's anger. The flame the rich man feels is God's anger.

Look through the Scriptures see if you can find anything else that speaks of fire in Hades. Hades isn't a place of fire, that's Gehenna.

Butch,
Hades has a part of it that is torment....
Gehenna is a place in Jerusalem where trash is burned..or was at the time of Jesus.

The fact that Hades, Sheoul, Gehenna and Hell get all mixed together in our bibles is no reason to doubt that we do not go to any of these places if we are saved persons.

Jesus said that the name of the place where souls were waiting for HIS resurrection is called Hades:
Luke 16:23
23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Jesus said that the persons in Hades were in torment and some wanted their tongues to be dipped with water because of the agony of the flame.
Luke 16:24
24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

Across the chasm was Abraham's Bossom, the resting place for the saved by faith that were awaiting Jesus' resurrection.
Luke 16:26
26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

The KJV calls Abraham's Bossom PARADISE
and it calls Hades HELL....
The only place is scripture that is correctly translated as HELL is 2 Peter 2:4,,,which is called Tartarus,,,but translated as HELL.

As I had said,, some do believe that Abraham's Bossom is Paradise and that Hades might be both places combined...separated by a chasm. I have no strong belief in either teaching... I do tend to believe that Paradise is Abraham's Bossom and those persons were released into heaven at the time of Jesus' death,,,Matthew 27:51 when the curtain was torn in two.

As to the meaning of the story Jesus told...
The Jews believed that the rich were blessed of God
and the poor were cursed of God...
Jesus telling of the Rich Man and Lazarus overturned that belief...being that it was the poor man that was saved and the rich man that was lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

I stated in the OP that man is a flesh being, that is infused with the breath or spirit of God, and that these two things combined to form a living soul. Thus a living soul consists of the flesh being and the breath of God. Since the breath of God "isn't man" they can only reside in the man. They can reside in the Soul because a man is a living soul as long as he has the breath of God in him. But the emotions stem from the man. They are functions in the brain.

I believe you're familiar with science because of questions you asked me in a previous post regarding creation and evolution.

So do you not know that science is aware of the fact that the BRAIN is part of the physical body.....
But the MIND is something different.

I looked and found these remarks to be interesting:

Dualism is the concept that our mind is more than just our brain. This concept entails that our mind has a non-material, spiritual dimension that includes consciousness and possibly an eternal attribute. One way to understand this concept is to consider our self as a container including our physical body and physical brain along with a separate non-physical mind, spirit, or soul. The mind, spirit, or soul is considered the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain in a similar way that picture waves and sound waves manifest themselves through a television set. The picture and sound waves are also non-material just like the mind, spirit, or soul.

The alternative concept is materialism. Materialism holds that everything in our universe is made from physical materials including the human mind or brain and that spiritual attributes do not exist in the universe. This concept holds that our mind and brain are one and the same.

If dualism is not true, the mind is limited to the physical brain. Assuming this scenario, what kind of a mind would we expect? We certainly would not expect to have consciousness strictly from materials. Perhaps we could expect to see a mechanical mind similar to a computer that is run by a program. We would not expect things like consciousness, sensations, thoughts, emotions, desires, beliefs, and free choice. Such a mind would behave in a deterministic way based upon the laws of matter. Many scientists and philosophers are now concluding that the laws of chemistry and physics cannot explain the experience of consciousness in human beings.

We would not expect people with such a mind to be responsible for their behavior because everything they do is determined by the attributes of matter. We all know that is absurd. Also, we could not trust our minds since they are just a random collection of materials not produced by an intelligent mind.


and


The brain is an organ but the mind isn't. The brain is the physical place where the mind resides. It is a vessel in which the electronic impulses that create thought are contained. With the brain you coordinate your moves, your organism, your activities and transmit impulses. But you use the mind to think. You can muse at what happened, what is scheduled and what maybe will happen.

The mind is the manifestations of thought, perception, emotion, determination, memory and imagination that takes place within the brain. Mind is often used to refer especially to the thought processes of reason. The mind is the awareness of consciousness we know, the ability to control what we do, and know what we are doing and why. It is the ability to understand. Animal are able to interpret their environments, but not understand them. whereas human are able to understand what happens around them, even if not the scientific reasoning for it, and therefore adapt.

source: https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_difference_between_mind_and_brain

I don't have a problem with any statement. I am a little confused as to why you're asking questions again that I've already answered for you.

This will be addressed next....

 

[Edward]

I believe you're familiar with science because of questions you asked me in a previous post regarding creation and evolution.

So do you not know that science is aware of the fact that the BRAIN is part of the physical body.....
But the MIND is something different.

I looked and found these remarks to be interesting:

Dualism is the concept that our mind is more than just our brain. This concept entails that our mind has a non-material, spiritual dimension that includes consciousness and possibly an eternal attribute. One way to understand this concept is to consider our self as a container including our physical body and physical brain along with a separate non-physical mind, spirit, or soul. The mind, spirit, or soul is considered the conscious part that manifests itself through the brain in a similar way that picture waves and sound waves manifest themselves through a television set. The picture and sound waves are also non-material just like the mind, spirit, or soul.

The alternative concept is materialism. Materialism holds that everything in our universe is made from physical materials including the human mind or brain and that spiritual attributes do not exist in the universe. This concept holds that our mind and brain are one and the same.

If dualism is not true, the mind is limited to the physical brain. Assuming this scenario, what kind of a mind would we expect? We certainly would not expect to have consciousness strictly from materials. Perhaps we could expect to see a mechanical mind similar to a computer that is run by a program. We would not expect things like consciousness, sensations, thoughts, emotions, desires, beliefs, and free choice. Such a mind would behave in a deterministic way based upon the laws of matter. Many scientists and philosophers are now concluding that the laws of chemistry and physics cannot explain the experience of consciousness in human beings.

We would not expect people with such a mind to be responsible for their behavior because everything they do is determined by the attributes of matter. We all know that is absurd. Also, we could not trust our minds since they are just a random collection of materials not produced by an intelligent mind.


and


The brain is an organ but the mind isn't. The brain is the physical place where the mind resides. It is a vessel in which the electronic impulses that create thought are contained. With the brain you coordinate your moves, your organism, your activities and transmit impulses. But you use the mind to think. You can muse at what happened, what is scheduled and what maybe will happen.

The mind is the manifestations of thought, perception, emotion, determination, memory and imagination that takes place within the brain. Mind is often used to refer especially to the thought processes of reason. The mind is the awareness of consciousness we know, the ability to control what we do, and know what we are doing and why. It is the ability to understand. Animal are able to interpret their environments, but not understand them. whereas human are able to understand what happens around them, even if not the scientific reasoning for it, and therefore adapt.

source: https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_difference_between_mind_and_brain


This will be addressed next....

I'm aware that they can not find where consciousness resides within us but I think scripture tells us, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and so as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he...

And science has caught up with this knowledge.
Most of us have been taught in school that the heart is constantly responding to "orders" sent by the brain in the form of neural signals. However, it is not as commonly known that the heart actually sends more signals to the brain than the brain sends to the heart! Moreover, these heart signals have a significant effect on brain function—influencing emotional processing as well as higher cognitive faculties such as attention, perception, memory, and problem-solving. In other words, not only does the heart respond to the brain, but the brain continuously responds to the heart.

The effect of heart activity on brain function has been researched extensively over about the past 40 years. Earlier research mainly examined the effects of heart activity occurring on a very short time scale—over several consecutive heartbeats at maximum. Scientists at the HeartMath Institute have extended this body of scientific research by looking at how larger-scale patterns of heart activity affect the brain’s functioning.

Read more: https://www.heartmath.org/science/

 

[GodsGrace]

Look at what you wrote.

"Those who believe in Jesus WILL NEVER DIE.
Never die means that I will live even after death..."

THIS is the statement that I said you apparently had a problem with.

I wrote what I wrote because I agree with what I wrote...
Those who believe in Jesus will never die.
What lets us be ME will live on....
That would be my soul ---

Are you going to answer WHERE you believe the soul is?
Do you believe it is part of our physical body?
We are a living soul is a metaphor....
We ARE a living soul because our soul is alive...
but the euphamism means we are a living being...
Just as Genesis 1:7 states: the man formed became a LIVING BEING.

That living being comprises the man's body and his soul and his spirit.

You said those who believe never die and then you acknowledged death. This seems to be a contradiction. It is. In order to remedy this many people simply insert the word body. It's the body that dies. But, maybe there's another understanding or maybe one is misunderstanding the passage. Again, He's talking about the resurrection. Resurrection means to bring to life that which has died. Look at what He said,

Yes, I do mean that the body dies....
this is apparent.
If life continues...then what continues is the soul and spirit.
If they do not continue then we become annihilated.
So there is no contradiction:
We die
and yet we live.
John 6:58
58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

The fathers ate and died..... (physically)
Do we also not die?? (physically)
So what does Jesus mean by "he who eats this bread will live forever." ??

"John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."

You underlined, "will live even if he dies". As I pointed out will live or shall live is in the future tense. It means he will live in the future. Then he says everyone who lives and believes will never die. Look at the order of events. Someone believes, he dies, he shall live and this one who "shall live", in the future, the one who has been raised, will never die. It's the resurrected believer that never dies. Jesus states right in the passage that the believer may die. However, shall live is in the context of resurrection. There is nothing in this passage that hints at life as a disembodied consciousness.

As I said,,,,Jesus and Martha were speaking of the resurrection in John 11:25-26.

Martha said: I know my brother will rise again in the resurrection.
Jesus tells her HE IS the resurrection. At the resurrection the body WILL resurrect. But for right at that moment, Jesus tells Martha that EVEN THOUGH A PERSON DIES...he will live. HE WILL LIVE.

If a person dies...HOW will he live? Jesus did not say he would live AGAIN....He said the person will live EVEN THOUGH he dies.

At this point, I would ask again....
what does ETERNAL LIFE mean?
If our life is eternal, it means we never die....but only physically.
Our SELF will remain alive: our spirit and our soul.

1 John 5:12
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Notice the tense here too.
He who HAS THE SON
HAS THE LIFE...........this is present tense.

He who DOES NOT HAVE THE SON
DOES NOT HAVE eternal life.

Our life is either eternal or it is not.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Butch5

It's always good to challenge what we believe. I think you would agree that Scholars can be in error. I would submit the majority are on certain doctrines. I don't think "scholars" necessarily know more than one ever will. They may know more about a particular theological system, but that doesn't mean they know more about the Bible.

We don't all agree because we bring different beliefs or preconceptions to the text. Most people in the world, whether Christian or not, believe that at death some part of them lives on. It's been that way for centuries. In Jesus' day many Greeks believed Plato's philosophy that the goal of the spirit was to escape the flesh and ascend into the heavens. Before that the Egyptians believed their kings went to a conscious existence after death. It's no different today. If all of these people come to the Bible with the preconception that the dead simply continue on after the body dies, how are they going to see passages such as, Lazarus and the Rich Man, The Transfiguration, or the souls under the altar? They're going to see them as actual events because they believe that the dead continue on after the body dies. They then post these passages as proof that the dead live on, but, it's only proof to them because they already believe this. It's actually a logical fallacy known as Begging the Question or Circular reasoning. It goes something like this.

Premise. The dead live on after death.

Then they post a passage about Lazarus and the Rich Man and say this is proof.

Conclusion. The dead live on after death

Do you see the premise and conclusion are the same? The conclusion is just a restatement of the premise. In actuality they haven't proven anything. They've just restated their premise. Let me give you another example in case this isn't clear.

John: The Bible is God's word
Tim: prove it
John: The Bible says it's God's word.

Are you saying we're both using circular reasoning?

You deny Hades, which JESUS taught.
You deny the Transfiguration which JESUS spoke of.
I can't speak to the souls under the altar...it's probably in Revelation.

I have to believe what Jesus said.
These are words of Christ...
Moses was alive....he was seen by the 3 Apostles...it was not a vision. Hades was a real place.

Didn't Jesus win the victory over death and the grave?
What does this mean if man has always died?

Whoever BELIEVES in the Son HAS ETERNAL LIFE...
John 3:35

So, one reason we don't all agree is preconceptions. There are other reasons. Some people don't study the history of the church. Some don't know the original languages and rely on others etc. I used to let others study for me. I believed much of what people have been posting. However, I learned that letting other, pastors and theologians, study for me only lead to confusion and error. Some pastors taught me one thing and some taught the exact opposite. I quickly learned that no matter how much they study, if they're wrong they're wrong. If someone studies something that is wrong for 8 hours a day, they're still wrong. I also see theologians that teach completely opposite things. That means that at least one of them is wrong. So, If I know that there are theologians and pastors out there that are teaching things that are wrong I'm going to question everything the say. I'm not going to assume what they say is true just because they have a few letters after their name. I'm also not going to assume they are smarter than me, another mistake made in the past. Because of these things I began to question everything I believed about the Bible. I put everything on the table and any doctrine that couldn't stand got tossed. So, the reason what I believe is different than many is because I don't take the words of translators and theologians without confirmation. I check what they say. Does it align with Scripture? Does it makes sense? Is it logical? I also look for logical fallacies or errors in their reasoning. I read the Bible literally unless there is reason think something is figurative. If I have to start adding things to make a doctrines work. I question the doctrine not the Scriptures.

I've had to do the above and I agree with you.
There are scholars that agree with you and those that agree with me. As I said,,,,we must study and be true to ourselves. I do tend to believe literally what Jesus taught....this I can say for sure. Some verses are speaking about eternal life that begins now,,,and some are speaking of the future resurrection...I separate them. I'll also take this opportunity to tell you that you do intensive studies and I do appreciate this.

1. I just wish you would explain how our feelings could come from a physical body....our body does not have feelings.
2. And maybe you could explain eternal life, if you believe it does not start now.

In the grave. Jesus said the rich man was buried, and in Hades he lifted up his eyes. That statement equates being buried with being in Hades

Then I am apparently not able to make myself clear....
BEFORE Jesus died,,, EVERYONE was awaiting His death and resurrection in a holding pen....Jesus called the tormented part of it Hades,,,,but it is believed it was all Hades but separated with a chasm --- (so YES, being dead meant being in "Hades", or at least either in Abraham's Bossom OR Hades as the tormented place).

AFTER Jesus died, those in Abraham's Bossom (a place) were released to heaven....and those in the tormented place stayed there....(hell, as it can be translated).

Again, I would submit that it's not really a difficult subject if we approach it from what the Bible says about these terms. If we let the Bible define the words, body, soul ,and spirit it clarifies the subject. If we approach it from the idea that the dead are alive it will never be settled.

I believe the soul dies and see no conflict whatsoever. Where I see the conflict is claiming it lives on.

Since you believe the soul is man
and man dies
then of course you believe the soul dies.

This is soul sleep.
Or annihilation of the damned.

I believe the soul is a PART OF MAN
and must necessarily continue to live.

We both agree the spirit lives...so I ask you once again:

3. Which part of us, right now, is our ego, or inner man, or our self-identity?

4. Is the mind different than the brain?

If you just answer these 4 questions, I do believe this conversation should end....I'd just like to really understand what you believe.
You say the soul dies and the spirit returns to God.
So is question no. 3 in our spirit? Is the spirit our SELF?


part 2 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm aware that they can not find where consciousness resides within us but I think scripture tells us, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and so as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he...

And science has caught up with this knowledge.
Most of us have been taught in school that the heart is constantly responding to "orders" sent by the brain in the form of neural signals. However, it is not as commonly known that the heart actually sends more signals to the brain than the brain sends to the heart! Moreover, these heart signals have a significant effect on brain function—influencing emotional processing as well as higher cognitive faculties such as attention, perception, memory, and problem-solving. In other words, not only does the heart respond to the brain, but the brain continuously responds to the heart.

The effect of heart activity on brain function has been researched extensively over about the past 40 years. Earlier research mainly examined the effects of heart activity occurring on a very short time scale—over several consecutive heartbeats at maximum. Scientists at the HeartMath Institute have extended this body of scientific research by looking at how larger-scale patterns of heart activity affect the brain’s functioning.

Read more: https://www.heartmath.org/science/

OK Ed,
but man does not think with the heart!

However, I'll read the link tomorrow morning.
I believe I know what it'll say, but who knows....
Since it pumps blood to the brain,,,the heart absolutely has
an affect on the brain.....but it does not contain any emotion...
will read the link.

Tomorrow.

 

[JLB]

It's a parable. Jesus didn't say anything about anyone's afterlife. There are three people mentioned, Abraham, Lazarus, and a rich man. There's nothing about anyone else in this parable. Jesus didn't say this is what happens when people die. It's seems you're imposing something on the passage

It’s about real people who are literal as Jesus used their names to teach us about life after death.


JLB

 

[jasonc]

OK Ed,
but man does not think with the heart!

However, I'll read the link tomorrow morning.
I believe I know what it'll say, but who knows....
Since it pumps blood to the brain,,,the heart absolutely has
an affect on the brain.....but it does not contain any emotion...
will read the link.

Tomorrow.

if what he said about the heart was true. a person with a heart transplant would have the emotions of the original person who is dead. we know that isn't the case

 

[Edward]

When we were little kids, life was all about the flesh. I skinned my knee, I'm hungry. It was only after we grew up some and matured enough or by the grace of God, Became aware that we are triune beings and that there is a spiritual aspect of man and of life. Of God! We became saved (PTL!) and are now new creatures in Christ, the old things being passed away.

My flesh body did not pass away, nor was it renewed or upgraded in any way. So it had to happen in my spirit. And no, God did not make His breath of life Spirit a new creature in Christ within us, lol! That happens to our spirit, to us. Yes it can be said that we are flesh man (loosely), but it is also true that our spirit is real, the Spirit of God is real, as is the Spiritual realm. And us believers are saved now and belong to the Lord, and the Lord instructed us in scripture to...look to the unseen, be led by the Spirit and to seek God.

Doesn't scripture say that flesh man will not see God and can not know God? So to seek God we must (go internal) and position our heart and spirit towards the Lord which brings us into His presence. Learning about our own spirit man and the Lord's Holy Spirit is our Christian duty and we must obey our Lord. So to be led by the Spirit means we have to remain cognizant and aware of the Lord's presence at all times, and this is done by keeping our spirit focused on Him. So we're duty-bound to learn about our own spirit and believe it and accept it. We must spiritually evolve.

So to reduce man down to a mere body alone, is theologically absurd. This is what it is all about. I am a spirit being who was fearfully and wonderfully made and was created in God's own image and likeness, and were born (and re-born) to follow Him and be led by Him. So reject the flesh and cleave to the Spirit. The flesh may be my temporary home but it is the most insignificant part of who I am. I am NOT a mere flesh man! I am a new creature in Christ and I can feel it within me. I am spirit. You may be flesh, and I'm sorry to hear that. But I'm not.