What is a man?

[Butch5]

Is this a parable.

Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:14-18




JLB

No

 

[Butch5]

Since Jesus mentioned specifically people and things they said, it’s certainly not a parable.

As I said, just because you say it's not a parable doesn't mean it's not a parable. That He used names doesn't mean it's not a parable. The names are important to the story.

Hell, hades is real, it’s not some fictitious place.

I never said it wasn't real.

[Quote)Jesus words are true.[/quote] agreed



JLB
[/QUOTE]

 

[JLB]

No

So how is it you decided to make the next verse a parable, when Jesus used literal names and places.


Hell, Hades is a real place of torment with fire.


No two ways about it.



JLB

 

[JLB]

As I said, just because you say it's not a parable doesn't mean it's not a parable. That He used names doesn't mean it's not a parable.

Show me another parable where Jesus mentioned peoples name and places and the law of Moses.

All those people and places are real.




JLB

 

[Butch5]

So how is it you decided to make the next verse a parable, when Jesus used literal names and places.

I didn't make it a parable. Jesus did.

Hell, Hades is a real place of torment with fire.




No two ways about it.



JLB

Hades is a real place, but people don't burn there. The Jewish leadership would know what fire in Hades was.

 

[Butch5]

Show me another parable where Jesus mentioned peoples name and places and the law of Moses.

All those people and places are real.




JLB

That doesn't make it literal. That's just an arbitrary statement. Jesus started the parable the same way He started the previous parable. There was a certain rich man.

 

[JLB]

I didn't make it a parable. Jesus did.



Hades is a real place, but people don't burn there. The Jewish leadership would know what fire in Hades was.

Thank goodness we don’t have to rely on opinions, of men and Jewish leaders, we have the truth from the Lord Jesus Christ, recorded for us in Luke 16:19-31.


Amen.


And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:24



JLB

 

[JLB]

That doesn't make it literal. That's just an arbitrary statement. Jesus started the parable the same way He started the previous parable. There was a certain rich man.

Jesus was teaching His disciples and the Pharisees who were lovers of money began to deride Him, so this was His response.

It starts in verse 14, which you have already admitted was not a parable, and is one complete teaching, and is all direct speech.

No parable uses literal names and places.



Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:14-31





JLB

 

[Randy]

So how is it you decided to make the next verse a parable, when Jesus used literal names and places.


Hell, Hades is a real place of torment with fire.


No two ways about it.



JLB

Clearly the Hades Jesus spoke of was a place of suffering.

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

A parable that conveyed truth in regard to judgment between the righteous and unrighteous.

But if He thinks Christ Jesus Himself was dead before His resurrection how will you ever convince him we in Christ live beyond the life of the body?

 

[JLB]

Clearly the Hades Jesus spoke of was a place of suffering.

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

A parable that conveyed truth in regard to judgment between the righteous and unrighteous.

But if He thinks Christ Jesus Himself was dead before His resurrection how will you ever convince him we in Christ live beyond the life of the body?

Whatever anyone wants to call it, is fine, as long as they don’t use the word parable to deny the truth of the words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said the man was being tormented in fire.

Jesus said Abraham spoke and knew things beyond his ability.

Jesus said that Lazarus was carried to a place where Abraham was, and was comforted.


Clearly no ones soul was in the grave asleep.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Thank goodness we don’t have to rely on opinions, of men and Jewish leaders, we have the truth from the Lord Jesus Christ, recorded for us in Luke 16:19-31.


Amen.


And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:24



JLB

Of course it's the true. That's not in question. The question is whether or not it's an actual event or a parable. We know it's parable because dead people can't speak.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus was teaching His disciples and the Pharisees who were lovers of money began to deride Him, so this was His response.

It starts in verse 14, which you have already admitted was not a parable, and is one complete teaching, and is all direct speech.

No parable uses literal names and places.



Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:14-31





JLB

"No parable uses literal names and places."

That is an arbitrary statement. It's your opinion. As I said, the names are important to the story. If there are no names the parable cannot be understood.


11 Then He said: "A certain man had two sons.
12 "And the younger of them said to his father,`Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.' So he divided to them his livelihood.
13 "And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. (Lk. 15:11-13 NKJ)

There was a certain rich man, who had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he was wasting his goods. 2 And he called him, and said unto him, What is this that I hear of thee? render the account of thy stewardship; for thou canst be no longer steward. (Lk. 16:1 ASV)

Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: 20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, (Lk. 16:1 ASV)

 

[Butch5]

Clearly the Hades Jesus spoke of was a place of suffering.

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

A parable that conveyed truth in regard to judgment between the righteous and unrighteous.

But if He thinks Christ Jesus Himself was dead before His resurrection how will you ever convince him we in Christ live beyond the life of the body?

That's easy, just show me where Scripture teaches it. So far all anyone has done is show parables, visions, or passages that are misunderstood. There's a huge difference between the Scripture teaching something and someone inferring something from Scripture.

There's a quick and easy way to prove me wrong. Show me somewhere I can go to speak to dead people. If I can speak to dead people then you guys are right the dead live on. However, I've been to funerals and cemeteries. I've seen people talking to dead loved ones. I've never, never, never, heard one of those dead people reply.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that this claim, that the dead live on, has "NO" real life proof. The entire belief system is based on one's "interpretation" of a few passages in the Bible. People are basing their entire belief in this idea on a few passages of Scripture, which, if they are mis-interpreting, means they have nothing. If these passages are being mis-interpreted, then there is absolutely "NO" evidence whatsoever that the dead live on. I would think that given this "limited" quantity of evidence Christians would go to the nth degree to make sure they are correctly understanding those passages. Yet we don't see that. Instead we see a cavalier dismal of counter evidence. If you want me to believe that the dead are alive, it's really simple. Just give me some proof.

 

[JLB]

Of course it's the true. That's not in question. The question is whether or not it's an actual event or a parable. We know it's parable because dead people can't speak.

Make no sense Butch.

It’s the words of Jesus Christ.

It’s the truth.

If the man was not in hell, being tormented in the flame of fire, then Jesus was lying.


It’s frightening that you don’t understand this simple truth.


JLB

 

[JLB]

11 Then He said: "A certain man had two sons.
12 "And the younger of them said to his father,`Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.' So he divided to them his livelihood.
13 "And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. (Lk. 15:11-13 NKJ)

No names.

 

[Butch5]

Make no sense Butch.

It’s the words of Jesus Christ.

It’s the truth.

If the man was not in hell, being tormented in the flame of fire, then Jesus was lying.


It’s frightening that you don’t understand this simple truth.


JLB

Incorrect reasoning is in your way. Jesus isn't lying if it isn't an actual event.

It's amazing to me the amount of evidence you're willing to dismiss to hold to a doctrine. The only evidence you have is "your understanding" of these passages. You're telling me dead people can talk, but you can't show me dead people that talk. You're telling me dead people are alive, but you can't show me any dead people that are alive.

I've given overwhelming evidence for why this should be understood as a parable. That dead people are talking is good evidence as to why it should be understood as a parable. Dead people can't talk.

 

[Butch5]

No names.

Again, that statement was arbitrary. As I said, the names are important to the parable. Without them one doesn't understand the parable. What's interesting is that only Abraham and Lazarus are named. Why isn't the Rich Man named?

 

[Randy]

Of course it's the true. That's not in question. The question is whether or not it's an actual event or a parable. We know it's parable because dead people can't speak.

It conveys truth on the judgment between the righteous and unrighteous. One suffered the other didn't. And Abraham was unable to help the one who suffered even if he wanted to.

Doesn't make sense if both parties are dead.

You reject everything given from all of us. I am unable to convince you. You are free to believe as you do.

A body was prepared for Jesus. That body died. Jesus was alive in His spirit. He never dies.

It states so. "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit".
Note the word alive.
God is Spirit.

 

[LovethroughDove]

It's a pretty detailed parable if the point is just to say when one dies some part of them lives on and goes to Heaven of Hell. He could have just said that.

Why can't it be a parable and something that took place?

And Jesus did say this: Matthew 13:13. I think you guys already discussed this passage. I know that this is a parable, but also literal and it doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

[JLB]

Incorrect reasoning is in your way. Jesus isn't lying if it isn't an actual event.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24


Jesus said Lazarus died.

Jesus said the rich man died.

Jesus said Lazarus was carried by angels to where Abraham was.

Jesus said the rich man was in hell, hades, tormented in the flame.



Which of these statements from Jesus was true and which one was a lie?



JLB