What is a man?

[Randy]

Jesus said it was a vision. Jesus, Peter, James, and John, went up on the mountain. They were there. Moses and Elijah were dead, they weren't there. You see, you're assuming before the text that dead people are alive and then you're presenting this passage to prove dead people are alive. That's actually a logical fallacy known as begging the question. This passage doesn't say that Moses and Elijah were alive. Jesus said it was a vision, and Peter said it was Christ's coming in power. As I said before, it wasn't his first coming because He was already there. It obviously couldn't actually be His second coming because He had not left from the first coming.

There's nothing here that teaches dead people are alive. One simply must already assume that and impose it on the text.

Moses and Elijah are very much alive. You clearly write off any witness, including those seen in heaven alive in REV, to support your theology.

I strongly disagree with you.

 

[Edward]

The only thing that would lead on to think this was an actual event is the preconceived idea that dead people are alive. Which would cause one to wonder why they are called dead people.

Are you of the notion that our flesh body is "us"? Scripture says we are spirit/soul/body. I am a spirit. I have a soul. I live in a body. Doesn't 2 Corinthians chapter 5 explain it?

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.../

This passage speaks of our flesh body as being an earthly "house". A temporary dwelling for us while we are on the earth. If Moses and Elijah actually died when their flesh bodies died, then this passage would be incorrect.

The carnal logical mind can not receive this truth. It can not receive it because it is carnal and can not discern spiritual things which are only spiritually discerned. The carnal mind believes what it can see and it can only see worldly things. But the Lords Word tells us to, look to the things that are unseen.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.../

So it seems to be clear that when we look into our mirror at home, we don't see us but we see only our house that we dwell in, our body. v17 seems to be implying that us inside of our body is only a light affliction. So Moses and Elijah had to be alive or this is all wrong.

So in a way, the Matrix was right. It is the world which has been pulled over our eyes to blind us to the truth. Doesn't scripture also say that, even now, we are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus? What if...when our body dies, we wake up in heaven with Jesus? That it was all a mental exercise?

 

[Butch5]

Moses and Elijah are very much alive. You clearly write off any witness, including those seen in heaven alive in REV, to support your theology.

I strongly disagree with you.

The Scriptures tell us explicitly that Moses died. And, unless you believe that Elijah was about a thousand years old, we have to assume he died. So, can you please explain how they were alive and talking with Jesus on the mountain?

That's ironic. I've addressed everything you've presented. On the other hand you've simply dismissed everything I've presented. You said Moses and Elijah were alive, I went to the Scriptures and showed how that can't be. I said it was a vision and you essentially said, nuh uh.

You brought up the souls in Revelation and said I wrote it off. What I said was Revelation is a book of Symbolism and that we need to establish whether or not the passage literal. You never addressed it again. You made no attempt to show how you believe it was literal.

Sorry friend but I don't think there's any evidence of me just writing things off to fit my theology. If anything I think it's the other way around.

 

[Butch5]

The Scriptures tell us explicitly that Moses died. And, unless you believe that Elijah was about a thousand years old, we have to assume he died. So, can you please explain how they were alive and talking with Jesus on the mountain?

That's ironic. I've addressed everything you've presented. On the other hand you've simply dismissed everything I've presented. You said Moses and Elijah were alive, I went to the Scriptures and showed how that can't be. I said it was a vision and you essentially said, nuh uh.

You brought up the souls in Revelation and said I wrote it off. What I said was Revelation is a book of Symbolism and that we need to establish whether or not the passage literal. You never addressed it again. You made no attempt to show how you believe it was literal.

Sorry friend but I don't think there's any evidence of me just writing things off to fit my theology. If anything I think it's the other way around.

Yes, my position is that we are flesh beings, as Gen 2:7 says, Man was created from the dust of the earth. God put His breath in man and those two things combined to become a living soul.

I would submit that man is not a spirit. There is nothing, nothing, in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. Gen 2:7 plainly states what a man is. The man was made from the dust of the earth. There is only one spirit in man and it's not man, it's God. The breath or spirit of life, is not human, it's divine, it's God. And, it goes back to God when man dies. The soul is a combination of the body, the man, and this breath or spirit of God. That's what we see in the Scriptures. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture, concretely as living being and abstractly as life.

The idea that man is a spirit actually came into Christianity from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. In Jesus day, one of the primary beliefs among the Greeks was Platonism. It was the belief that man was a spirit and his goal was to ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god. The Gnostics took this philosophy and combined it with Christian doctrine and what emerge was known as Gnosticism. The Gnostics said that in order to ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god, one had to have special knowledge. And guess where you got that special knowledge... from the Gnostics. The point is that nowhere in Scripture is it taught that man is a spirit. Jesus tells us that a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:36-39 KJV)

We can see from this that something that has flesh and bone is not a spirit. Thus, man is not a spirit.

Regarding the passage from 2 Cor.5. It actually teaches the opposite of what you're suggesting. This passage speaks of the Resurrection and it begins back in chapter 4. Remember, the Greeks believed that their goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. Was that Paul's goal. No.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)

Remember, Corinth was right next to Greece, the center of Greek philosophy. Some of the Corinthians were denying the Resurrection.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Cor. 15:12 KJV)

Paul often speaks in concepts. Notice, he speaks of two body states, one earthly one heavenly. One is corruptible one isn't. Notice he says we groan to be clothed with the house from heaven. The incorruptible one. But, notice verse 3, he says, "if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked". That flatly refutes the Greek philosophy of leaving the body. Paul equates leaving the body with being found naked. And, he doesn't want to be found naked. What does Paul want? Look at verse 4. Again he says we groan. Why? Not that we should be unclothed. Or, not that we should put off this mortal body, but rather that we should be clothed upon or overclothed. The Greek word literally means, to put on over, like one would put on a coat over their clothes. So, Paul doesn't want to put off his mortal body or divest himself of the flesh. He wants mortality swallowed up by life or immortality. He doesn't want to put off his mortal body, he wants to be enveloped in that incorruptible one. So what's he saying? He's looking for the Resurrection.

All of this flatly refutes the Greek idea that man is an immaterial being that leaves the body to ascend though the heaven.

Another way we know that Paul didn't believe that man was spirit that left the body at death is from his words to the Corinthians.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

He Paul is writing about Christians who had died in Christ. He says, if there is no resurrection then those Christians had perished. These are people who are already dead so he's not referring to their bodies. He doesn't say they are in Heaven, or with God, or with Jesus. The only hope he has for these dead believers is the Resurrection.

 

[Hospes]

I would submit that man is not a spirit. There is nothing, nothing, in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. Gen 2:7 plainly states what a man is. The man was made from the dust of the earth. There is only one spirit in man and it's not man, it's God. The breath or spirit of life, is not human, it's divine, it's God. And, it goes back to God when man dies.

Just curious, in your opinion, what of personhood actually exists once the body is dead? I define personhood as the non-material essence of what makes each of us different than one another.

 

[Butch5]

Just curious, in your opinion, what of personhood actually exists once the body is dead? I define personhood as the non-material essence of what makes each of us different than one another.

Nothing. When a person is dead, they are dead. The breath of God is what animates us. Consider a computer. You can build it, put all of the components in it, but it does nothing until you supply electricity. The electricity is not a part of the computer, but it is what animates it, or brings it to life. That's what we see in Gen 2:7. God created the man (computer), but nothing happened until He put the breath of life (electricity) in the man. At that point the man came alive, he became a living soul.

 

[Randy]

The Scriptures tell us explicitly that Moses died. And, unless you believe that Elijah was about a thousand years old, we have to assume he died. So, can you please explain how they were alive and talking with Jesus on the mountain?

That's ironic. I've addressed everything you've presented. On the other hand you've simply dismissed everything I've presented. You said Moses and Elijah were alive, I went to the Scriptures and showed how that can't be. I said it was a vision and you essentially said, nuh uh.

You brought up the souls in Revelation and said I wrote it off. What I said was Revelation is a book of Symbolism and that we need to establish whether or not the passage literal. You never addressed it again. You made no attempt to show how you believe it was literal.

Sorry friend but I don't think there's any evidence of me just writing things off to fit my theology. If anything I think it's the other way around.

I don't know about Elijah's body. But clearly like Jesus I would stated death according to the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

You made know attempt to show the witnesses in heaven that lost there lives as NOT literal. You wrote the whole section off as Symbolism. Rather then people who lost their lives and were comforted by Gods words. Souls that were alive and aware in heaven.

 

[Butch5]

I don't know about Elijah's body. But clearly like Jesus I would stated death according to the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

You made know attempt to show the witnesses in heaven that lost there lives as NOT literal. You wrote the whole section off as Symbolism. Rather then people who lost their lives and were comforted by Gods words. Souls that were alive and aware in heaven.

What does it mean to be made alive in the spirit?

I don't need to show it's not literal. You are the one who claimed it was. That means the onus is on you to show that it is. As I said, the book is full of symbolism. I chapter 1 we see Jesus With hair as white as snow, eyes like fire, feet as burnish brass, His voice was like many waters and a two edged sword coming out of His mouth. Later on He is described as a lamb having been slain having seven eyes. We know that Jesus was a man and not a lamb. It seems pretty obvious that the lamb description is symbolism.

 

[Butch5]

Are you of the notion that our flesh body is "us"? Scripture says we are spirit/soul/body. I am a spirit. I have a soul. I live in a body. Doesn't 2 Corinthians chapter 5 explain it?

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.../

This passage speaks of our flesh body as being an earthly "house". A temporary dwelling for us while we are on the earth. If Moses and Elijah actually died when their flesh bodies died, then this passage would be incorrect.

The carnal logical mind can not receive this truth. It can not receive it because it is carnal and can not discern spiritual things which are only spiritually discerned. The carnal mind believes what it can see and it can only see worldly things. But the Lords Word tells us to, look to the things that are unseen.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.../

So it seems to be clear that when we look into our mirror at home, we don't see us but we see only our house that we dwell in, our body. v17 seems to be implying that us inside of our body is only a light affliction. So Moses and Elijah had to be alive or this is all wrong.

So in a way, the Matrix was right. It is the world which has been pulled over our eyes to blind us to the truth. Doesn't scripture also say that, even now, we are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus? What if...when our body dies, we wake up in heaven with Jesus? That it was all a mental exercise?

Yes, my position is that we are flesh beings, as Gen 2:7 says, Man was created from the dust of the earth. God put His breath in man and those two things combined to become a living soul.

I would submit that man is not a spirit. There is nothing, nothing, in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. Gen 2:7 plainly states what a man is. The man was made from the dust of the earth. There is only one spirit in man and it's not man, it's God. The breath or spirit of life, is not human, it's divine, it's God. And, it goes back to God when man dies. The soul is a combination of the body, the man, and this breath or spirit of God. That's what we see in the Scriptures. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture, concretely as living being and abstractly as life.

The idea that man is a spirit actually came into Christianity from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. In Jesus day, one of the primary beliefs among the Greeks was Platonism. It was the belief that man was a spirit and his goal was to ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god. The Gnostics took this philosophy and combined it with Christian doctrine and what emerge was known as Gnosticism. The Gnostics said that in order to ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god, one had to have special knowledge. And guess where you got that special knowledge... from the Gnostics. The point is that nowhere in Scripture is it taught that man is a spirit. Jesus tells us that a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:36-39 KJV)

We can see from this that something that has flesh and bone is not a spirit. Thus, man is not a spirit.

Regarding the passage from 2 Cor.5. It actually teaches the opposite of what you're suggesting. This passage speaks of the Resurrection and it begins back in chapter 4. Remember, the Greeks believed that their goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. Was that Paul's goal. No.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)

Remember, Corinth was right next to Greece, the center of Greek philosophy. Some of the Corinthians were denying the Resurrection.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Cor. 15:12 KJV)

Paul often speaks in concepts. Notice, he speaks of two body states, one earthly one heavenly. One is corruptible one isn't. Notice he says we groan to be clothed with the house from heaven. The incorruptible one. But, notice verse 3, he says, "if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked". That flatly refutes the Greek philosophy of leaving the body. Paul equates leaving the body with being found naked. And, he doesn't want to be found naked. What does Paul want? Look at verse 4. Again he says we groan. Why? Not that we should be unclothed. Or, not that we should put off this mortal body, but rather that we should be clothed upon or overclothed. The Greek word literally means, to put on over, like one would put on a coat over their clothes. So, Paul doesn't want to put off his mortal body or divest himself of the flesh. He wants mortality swallowed up by life or immortality. He doesn't want to put off his mortal body, he wants to be enveloped in that incorruptible one. So what's he saying? He's looking for the Resurrection.

All of this flatly refutes the Greek idea that man is an immaterial being that leaves the body to ascend though the heaven.

Another way we know that Paul didn't believe that man was spirit that left the body at death is from his words to the Corinthians.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

He Paul is writing about Christians who had died in Christ. He says, if there is no resurrection then those Christians had perished. These are people who are already dead so he's not referring to their bodies. He doesn't say they are in Heaven, or with God, or with Jesus. The only hope he has for these dead believers is the Resurrection.

 

[Randy]

What does it mean to be made alive in the spirit?

I don't need to show it's not literal. You are the one who claimed it was. That means the onus is on you to show that it is. As I said, the book is full of symbolism. I chapter 1 we see Jesus With hair as white as snow, eyes like fire, feet as burnish brass, His voice was like many waters and a two edged sword coming out of His mouth. Later on He is described as a lamb having been slain having seven eyes. We know that Jesus was a man and not a lamb. It seems pretty obvious that the lamb description is symbolism.

Excuse me you do need to show its not literal. I believed what I read.

Alive is alive.
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Don't you believe you are one with Jesus? He never dies. We live because He lives.

 

[Hospes]

Just curious, in your opinion, what of personhood actually exists once the body is dead? I define personhood as the non-material essence of what makes each of us different than one another.

Nothing. When a person is dead, they are dead.

So the love of God as expressed toward "us" is actually a love targeted only at His own spirit in us? It is not your personhood that He makes the object of His love?

 

[Edward]

Yes, my position is that we are flesh beings, as Gen 2:7 says, Man was created from the dust of the earth. God put His breath in man and those two things combined to become a living soul.

I would submit that man is not a spirit. There is nothing, nothing, in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. Gen 2:7 plainly states what a man is. The man was made from the dust of the earth. There is only one spirit in man and it's not man, it's God. The breath or spirit of life, is not human, it's divine, it's God. And, it goes back to God when man dies. The soul is a combination of the body, the man, and this breath or spirit of God. That's what we see in the Scriptures. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture, concretely as living being and abstractly as life.

The idea that man is a spirit actually came into Christianity from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. In Jesus day, one of the primary beliefs among the Greeks was Platonism. It was the belief that man was a spirit and his goal was to ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god. The Gnostics took this philosophy and combined it with Christian doctrine and what emerge was known as Gnosticism. The Gnostics said that in order to ascend through the heavens to the ultimate god, one had to have special knowledge. And guess where you got that special knowledge... from the Gnostics. The point is that nowhere in Scripture is it taught that man is a spirit. Jesus tells us that a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:36-39 KJV)

We can see from this that something that has flesh and bone is not a spirit. Thus, man is not a spirit.

Regarding the passage from 2 Cor.5. It actually teaches the opposite of what you're suggesting. This passage speaks of the Resurrection and it begins back in chapter 4. Remember, the Greeks believed that their goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. Was that Paul's goal. No.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)

Remember, Corinth was right next to Greece, the center of Greek philosophy. Some of the Corinthians were denying the Resurrection.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Cor. 15:12 KJV)

Paul often speaks in concepts. Notice, he speaks of two body states, one earthly one heavenly. One is corruptible one isn't. Notice he says we groan to be clothed with the house from heaven. The incorruptible one. But, notice verse 3, he says, "if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked". That flatly refutes the Greek philosophy of leaving the body. Paul equates leaving the body with being found naked. And, he doesn't want to be found naked. What does Paul want? Look at verse 4. Again he says we groan. Why? Not that we should be unclothed. Or, not that we should put off this mortal body, but rather that we should be clothed upon or overclothed. The Greek word literally means, to put on over, like one would put on a coat over their clothes. So, Paul doesn't want to put off his mortal body or divest himself of the flesh. He wants mortality swallowed up by life or immortality. He doesn't want to put off his mortal body, he wants to be enveloped in that incorruptible one. So what's he saying? He's looking for the Resurrection.

All of this flatly refutes the Greek idea that man is an immaterial being that leaves the body to ascend though the heaven.

Another way we know that Paul didn't believe that man was spirit that left the body at death is from his words to the Corinthians.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

He Paul is writing about Christians who had died in Christ. He says, if there is no resurrection then those Christians had perished. These are people who are already dead so he's not referring to their bodies. He doesn't say they are in Heaven, or with God, or with Jesus. The only hope he has for these dead believers is the Resurrection.

Nothing in scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. What about...

1 Thessalonians 5:21-23
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.../

What do we do we do with this passage then? All truth has to agree with all scripture.

 

[Butch5]

Excuse me you do need to show its not literal. I believed what I read.

Maybe you misunderstood what you read.

The way debate works is that when someone makes a claim, the onus is on them to prove their claim. I made a claim a proved it in the op. You said I was wrong and posted the passage about the souls under the altar. The passage you posted doesn't prove I'm wrong unless it's literal. You haven't proven that it's literal, you've simply assumed it. Just because you believe that it's an actual even that exists doesn't mean it's an actual event that exists. Anyone who reads Revelation quickly sees that it's full of symbolism.

In addition to proving that those souls are actually living, you have another problem.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Rev. 4:1 KJV)

John was shown things that would come later on. They are future events. So, in addition to showing that those souls are actually presently living, you need to show that the time has come? The things John describes were to happen in the future. How far into the future. Everything after this passage could still be years away. If that is the case then those souls aren't there yet.

I asked you before, why are they under the altar? You din't answer. As I said, if you understand why they're under the altar then you'll understand what the passage means and if it's literal.

Alive is alive.
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.

You just keep jumping from passage to passage. The comma is in the wrong place. I've already addressed this in post 56

Don't you believe you are one with Jesus? He never dies. We live because He lives.

Jesus has been resurrected, we haven't.

 

[Butch5]

So the love of God as expressed toward "us" is actually a love targeted only at His own spirit in us? It is not your personhood that He makes the object of His love?

Sure, but without the breath of life that personhood is dead.

 

[Butch5]

Nothing in scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. What about...

1 Thessalonians 5:21-23
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.../

What do we do we do with this passage then? All truth has to agree with all scripture.

Right, It says "your" spirit. The word "your" denotes possession or ownership, not person. "You" denotes person. If I said, "I saw your red truck", would that mean you are a red truck? No, obviously not. It means you possess or own a red truck. You do have a spirit or breath. It is the breath of life. It's something of God, it's not man. It came out of God. That's what Gen 2:7 tells us.

 

[Hospes]

So the love of God as expressed toward "us" is actually a love targeted only at His own spirit in us? It is not your personhood that He makes the object of His love?

Sure, but without the breath of life that personhood is dead.

Not sure what your "Sure" is in response to, so I'll ask it more precisely: Since the only thing that gives us personhood is the Spirit of God in us, does that mean the object of His love is solely His love for Himself and not directed at us as individual persons?

BTW, I believe that God loves and thinks most highly of Himself, but if that is the totality of His love, then our being loved by God, as created persons distinct from one another, seems pretty empty. If each of us is in totality a melding of only God's spirit with physical material, then "we" really don't exist as distinct persons created in His image.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Spirit is part of God so, it doesn't die, it returns to Him. The soul does die. Scripture says that Jesus gave His soul for sins

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.1 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:1 KJV)

I hope I didn't skip any of your posts.
You had said that you and I are the same because we are both living beings and have a soul -- we are living souls.
Surely this is not correct.
I am very different from you.
Maybe I'm a very sensitive person.
Maybe you are a very strong person.
Maybe I fear lions.
Maybe you don't.
Maybe I hate school.
Maybe you love it.

What causes these differences?
The soul of each person is different....
The soul is what makes us...

Jesus had a body. He had a soul, and He certainly had a spirit.
His soul is what controlled His emotions, His will and His mind -- which is different than the brain. The brain is physical,,,the mind is an unseen entity that causes us to reason-

I've posted this image many times.....it explains perfectly the make-up of man.







I believe the problem we have is that you are using the O.T. and at that time it was not really known what man consisted of. The philosophers had an idea.

God revealed Himself in the O.T. but the revelation of God has increased with the coming of Jesus.

I've used scripture before to which you do not reply...but I'll try again:

1 Peter 1:9
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Above you stated that the soul dies.
Then why would Peter say that our faith saves our soul?
If our soul is saved,,,it keeps on living.

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

A sinner can be saved and this will keep his soul from death....
spiritual death because the soul cannot die.

We know that It was on the cross that Jesus dealt with sin. He gave His soul, life, for sins. As I said in the other post, soul is used two ways in Scripture, concretely as a living being and abstractly as life.

Soul can be used abstractly for life...."a living soul" meaning a person.

But did Jesus give His soul?
What did Jesus give us to save us?
He gave His blood. The Life is in the Blood.

Colossians 1:20a
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross;

God said to Ezekiel,

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20 KJV)

God said, the soul that sins shall die. Who dies? Everyone. We could say the person who sins shall die. It makes perfect sense if we replace soul with person. We could also say the life that sins shall die.

The soul here means the person.
And it means that the person that sins will die spiritually...
NOT physically. It just says that every person is responsible for their own sins...and not the sins of the father...or other persons.
It's speaking about PERSONS.
Please note that verse 21 goes on to speak about person...
and verses 18 and 19 also are speaking of persons.

You said, "If our spirit could die and/or our soul could die, then what makes us be eternal? Nothing." That is exactly right. We are not eternal. We are mortal. Paul, in his letter to Timothy, states plainly that the Father alone is immortal.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

The only one who has immortality is the one no one has seen nor can see. That's the Father. It's not Jesus because people have seen Him. So, according to Paul the Father is the only one who has immortality. That means that we don't. We're mortal.

Agreed.
Only God is immortal.
WE are mortal and we will die and be buried.
BUT...I believe, from scripture, that our soul and spirit does not die but only our body. I must have explained something incorrectly.

Notice what Jesus said, the one who believes in Him will live even if he dies. What is He talking about? The Resurrection. He said it right there in that passage. So if someone believes in Him and dies that one will live again at the Resurrection.
[/QUOTE]
John 11:21-26
21Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
22“Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

This chaper is (in the NASB)
The Death and Resurrection of Lazarus

It seems that the resurrection happened ON THAT VERY DAY.

Note verse 24....Martha tells Jesus that she knows Lazarus will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.

Jesus replies: I AM THE RESURRECTION and the life...he who believes in Me will LIVE EVEN IF HE DIES...and those that believe WILL NEVER DIE.

We do not have to wait for the resurrection....
Jesus IS the resurrection and we will never die....
physically yes,,,,but not our soul and not our spirit.
The resurrection will be for our body.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible tells us clearly that the body and the breath of God became a living Nephesh. The English translators translated that as a living soul. Some translate it as a living being. So, right there I would argue that the translators are not defining soul as the, will, mind, or emotions. They're translating it as a living being. We find in Genesis that animals too are called souls. It says, they are souls. A modern dictionary definition has no bearing on how the Bible uses words. You could probably use a modern definition to argue the translators chose the wrong word. But you can't use it to claim what the Bible means. The Bible was written long before the English word soul existed.

Animals also have a soul. Every dog is different,,,every cat is different....they have a body and they have a soul. The soul is what let's each animal be different -- just like us. Some are fearful, some are not...some are friendly, some are not. They do NOT have a spirit since they are not aware of God...

You seem to be stuck in a world of 4,000 years ago and do not take advantage of what we've found out about man in the meantime.

Let me ask you simply:
Could you please state what makes man....
I say it's BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT (if one is born again).

Of what parts do you believe man is made of?

The problem with your argument, here, is that it's speculation and opinion. If you go outside of the Scriptures you have no authority, The Scriptures are God breathed, not a modern dictionary. Not to mention that words change over time.

No B....Mine is not opinion and speculation.
I have given you many verse to support the belief that the life is in the blood and that Jesus gave His life --- blood -- to save us, and that the soul is different from the Spirit and, of course, the body.

It is you that use verses that are not clear and use metaphors and analogies when using the word soul and/or life.
I've refuted each one of your verses.

It does say the soul is in the blood.

This is so untrue that I won't even reply to it.
Ask your friendly doctor what is in the blood.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

Are you agreeing with me?
THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD. I've said this all along. And it is repeated in Leviticus 17:11
An atonement made for the soul?
I could agree with that. It is our soul that must be saved.

Red=Nephesh

Psalm 107 can easily be understood as the thirsty or hungry person.

Psalm 103 can easily be understood as David blessing the Lord with his whole being.

Agreed. It is speaking of a person. (Lev 107:9)

James is talking about eternally. Turning a man from sin refers to his salvation, Turning one from sin restores him.

RE James 5:20 (please give the verse)
Agreed,,,but what is being saved?
A body, a soul, a spirit?

The soul dies. If you notice in this passage Paul uses first and second person pronouns. "You" denotes personhood, it's a person. "Your" denotes possession or ownership. If Paul said "your" body, soul, and spirit, it shows that they belong to "you". If someone said, "I saw your red truck" would that mean you are a red truck? Of course not. Because. "your" denotes possession or ownership, not personhood. Notice he wants them to be preserved complete. Saying body, soul, and spirit, is a way of saying the whole person. It's the complete person. It could also be translated your, body, life, and spirit.

I assume you're speaking of
1 thessalonians 5:23
AMPC
And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you through and through [separate you from profane things, make you pure and wholly consecrated to God]; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved sound and complete [and found] blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

If you change the above, as you said, to :
BODY
LIFE
SPIRIT

How does that work and make sense?
Paul is speaking about Jesus keeping us blameless when we come before God.... This IS speaking about the resurrection...
So
Our BODY will be blameless
Our SOUL will be blameless
Of course, our SPIRIT will be blameless

What would it mean that our LIFE will be blameless?
How does changing SOUL to LIFE make sense to you?



Can you explain the metaphor?
Can you show me where Scripture teaches that man is made of three parts?



It's all through Scripture as a living person.

What makes us different is our physical make up and experiences. Why don't we all look alike. Because we have different Characteristics. our brains are all different. Some brains grow bigger than others, some smaller. Some have better memories, etc. Our experiences are all different. It's been shown that what we experience early on determines who we are later on.



They're located in the brain. That's why brain damage affects a person's personality, behavior etc. Look at people who come back from war with PTSD. Things they've seen and experienced have affected their brains. Sometimes they're not the when they return.




I asked because in the Scriptures soul means life. If the soul makes us different then your being alive should be different from my being alive. But, it's not different, it's the same. We're both alive by the breath of life.

I'm not the same as you. What makes us different is physical attributes and experiences.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Butch5]

Not sure what your "Sure" is in response to, so I'll ask it more precisely: Since the only thing that gives us personhood is the Spirit of God in us, does that mean the object of His love is solely His love for Himself and not directed at us as individual persons?

BTW, I believe that God loves and thinks most highly of Himself, but if that is the totality of His love, then our being loved by God, as created persons distinct from one another, seems pretty empty. If each of us is in totality a melding of only God's spirit with physical material, then "we" really don't exist as distinct persons created in His image.

The breath of life gives us life. What makes us different is quite few things. Some people are tall some are short. Some people are smarter than others, some are funnier, etc. Our experiences make us different. Someone who was cheated often as a child may grow up not trusting people, etc. These things make us who we are. The breath of life animates us.

Going back to my computer analogy. An Apple computer and a Windows computer act very differently. They have different requirements. They have different strengths and weaknesses, essentially, they have different personalities. However, the same electricity animates each of them. The electricity in one is no different than that electricity in the other. The electricity is the same yet the personalities of the computers are quite different.

 

[GodsGrace]

The breath of life gives us life. What makes us different is quite few things. Some people are tall some are short. Some people are smarter than others, some are funnier, etc. Our experiences make us different. Someone who was cheated often as a child may grow up not trusting people, etc. These things make us who we are. The breath of life animates us.

Going back to my computer analogy. An Apple computer and a Windows computer act very differently. They have different requirements. They have different strengths and weaknesses, essentially, they have different personalities. However, the same electricity animates each of them. The electricity in one is no different than that electricity in the other. The electricity is the same yet the personalities of the computers are quite different.

Where does our personality reside in the body?