What is a man?

[Butch5]

Good points.
God is a God of the living.
Mark 12:27
27“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living;

The living are a class of people. It doesn't necessitate that they are alive at that moment. Jesus also spoke of the dead who were very much alive.

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Matt. 8:21-22 KJV)

In this passage the dead are class of people. However, they are not dead.

When Jesus said that God is the God of the living He was referring to the Resurrection, not their current state.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Lk. 20:37-38 KJV)

Jesus' statement is regarding the Resurrection. Also note Luke's comment "for all live unto him". This show that the statement is given from God's perspective.

Also, the Greek grammar shows us the statement doesn't necessitate that they be alive, but I won't go into that.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're free to disagree with my position. However, what I've been stating in this entire thread is from the Scriptures. It was Moses who wrote that God created the man from dust. It was Moses who wrote that God breathed into him. And, it was Moses that wrote that these two became a living soul. If you disagree with this your disagreement is with Moses.

I've not given you opinions. It's all there in the Scriptures. The same theologians that you say disagree with me understand that the Greek and Hebrews mean wind. They understand that the words translated soul mean a physical person and life. They translate the words as life in many places.

We're facing here the same problem we've had all along regarding this discussion.
You want to go only by scripture and I'm saying that scripture does not explain what man is completely.

The word soul, as I showed in my previous post, can be used to mean "man",,,but it is a metaphor...it is not reality.
The reality is that man is made of 3 parts:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

Some believe the soul and spirit can be combined...this would be fine with me.

The BODY is our physical self.
The SOUL is our psychical self...Our psychology.
The SPIRIT connects to God.

Here is the meaning of soul:

adjective Also psy·chi·cal.
1. of or relating to the human soul or mind; mental (opposed to physical).
2. Psychology. pertaining to or noting mental phenomena.
3. outside of natural or scientific knowledge; spiritual.
4. of or relating to some apparently nonphysical force or agency:psychic research; psychic phenomena.
5. sensitive to influences or forces of a nonphysical or supernatural nature.

source: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/psychical

Any dictionary will give you the above meaning.
I know you're trying to stay with biblical definitions and I respect that...but in some cases we must go outside to find out the COMPLETE picture.

For instance:
How did we come to understand the Trinity?
How did we come to understand Justification?
And Sanctification --- since the N.T. sometimes uses the terms interchangeably.

The early church had no idea what the soul could be or that it could be a different entity.

It does NOT reside in the blood as you stated scripture says.

Psalm 107:9 What is hungry....man?
or something inside man?
For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.


Psalm 103:2
Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;
What is being asked to bless the LORD?
A person is already causing the blessing...he's saying that his SOUL is to bless the LORD.

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

We know that we cannot save a physical man from death...all men die. So what does SOUL mean in James?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

In the above the dust (body) will return to the earth as God said in Genesis...
The Spirit will return to God.

What happens to the soul,,,,1 Thessalonians 5:23 tells us we are
BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Already at the time of Jesus there was some concept of Body Soul and Spirit due to the philosophers. This became clearer to the church as time went on. I could find something on this if necessary.

You're making my case. A soul is a living being. That's why they're called souls.

As I said, it's a metaphore.
We are a living being...not only a soul.
Humans are made up of Body, Soul and Spirit.
It can be dichotomic or trichotomic, but we are 3 parts.

I've done that several times. It's a living person or life.

A soul is NOT a living person....it is PART of a living person.

What let's each one of us be us if not the soul?
How do you explain that each person is totally different?

Can you show me anything at all in Scripture that say the soul is the, mind, will, or emotions? There's nothing that teaches that.

If scripture is studied carefully, this conclusion will be reached.
I gave some verses above.
We've agreed to what a body is.
We agree to what the spirit is.

The body is our physical self.
The spirit connects us to God.

What about the rest of us?
Do we have a mind?
Do we have emotions?
Do we have a will?

WHERE are these located in the body?
The blood, the bones, where?

They are located in an unseen place known as the soul.

Can you explain to me how your being alive is different than my being alive?

I said the soul makes each one of us different and you came back with asking how you being alive is different than my being alive.

This is the problem with incorrect teachings....they change the meaning of everything.

We are alive in the same way....we eat, walk and breath...functions of the brain.

But are you THE SAME as I am?
WHAT makes you be different?

 

[GodsGrace]

The living are a class of people. It doesn't necessitate that they are alive at that moment. Jesus also spoke of the dead who were very much alive.

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Matt. 8:21-22 KJV)

In this passage the dead are class of people. However, they are not dead.

When Jesus said that God is the God of the living He was referring to the Resurrection, not their current state.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Lk. 20:37-38 KJV)

Jesus' statement is regarding the Resurrection. Also note Luke's comment "for all live unto him". This show that the statement is given from God's perspective.

Also, the Greek grammar shows us the statement doesn't necessitate that they be alive, but I won't go into that.

In Matthew 8:21 Jesus means dead in the sense of the spriit being dead....Let the dead bury the dead.
IOW, Let the dead in spirit bury the physically dead.
So, yes, agreed.

In Mark 12:27....God is telling Moses that although these men were dead for hundreds of years,,,they were alive. (meaning Abraham, Isaac)....

This would be derailing the thread...

Which brings up an interesting point...but first I'd like to agree on an understanding of the soul...I just can't understand you on this....

 

[Randy]

They appear alive if one already believes that the dead are alive. If you're referring to the Transfiguration with Moses and Jesus, Jesus said Mathew that it was a vision. Peter recounts it in his epistle as the second coming. If it's the second coming it obviously couldn't have been happening before Christ even left.

Regarding the seals, the book of Revelation is full of symbolism. So before we can use a passage from the book we really need to establish that the passage is literal. Given that I would ask, what is the significance of them being under the altar? The answer to that question goes a long way towards understanding that passage.

I would note that none of these passages teach that the dead are alive. People infer that from the text.

Jesus took Peter, James and John up the mountain. He was there in person. His face shone like the Son and His clothes became as white as the light. That was not a vision. He was there. Then Moses and Elijah appeared before Him and we learn they were speaking to Him of His impeding departure. They were alive. Luke stated Peter, James, and John were fully awake and saw the two with Jesus.

As Jesus stated though we were to die yet shall we live. Those that belong to Him "never" die.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus took Peter, James and John up the mountain. He was there in person. His face shone like the Son and His clothes became as white as the light. That was not a vision. He was there. Then Moses and Elijah appeared before Him and we learn they were speaking to Him of His impeding departure. They were alive. Luke stated Peter, James, and John were fully awake and saw the two with Jesus.

As Jesus stated though we were to die yet shall we live. Those that belong to Him "never" die.

I'll have to agree with you.
The word VISION in Matthew 17:9 means something that is seen.
It does not mean a vision, as in a dream and as is used a lot today.

STRONGS NT 3705: ὅραμα

ὅραμα, ὁράματος, τό (ὁράω), that which is seen, a sight, spectacle: Acts 7:31; Matthew 17:9;

 

[Randy]

I'll have to agree with you.
The word VISION in Matthew 17:9 means something that is seen.
It does not mean a vision, as in a dream and as is used a lot today.

STRONGS NT 3705: ὅραμα

ὅραμα, ὁράματος, τό (ὁράω), that which is seen, a sight, spectacle: Acts 7:31; Matthew 17:9;

On top of all that we are one in Christ by the eternal Spirit that dwells in us. We live in Him forever and never die because He lives forever and never dies

 

[GodsGrace]

On top of all that we are one in Christ by the eternal Spirit that dwells in us. We live in Him forever and never die because He lives forever and never dies

I wanted to get to this...
The spirit never dies.
The soul,,,which is what we each ARE as a human being, also never dies. Only the body dies and will await resurrection.

If our spirit could die and/or our soul could die, then what makes us be eternal? Nothing.

Jesus said HE is the resurrection AND the Life.
Jesus states this in
John 11:25
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

He who believes in Jesus will LIVE even if he dies.

 

[for_his_glory]

God breathed life (spirit) into us, Genesis 2:7, that made us a living soul and what goes back to God when this physical body dies (returns to the dust of the ground) is that very spirit of life God gave us that made us a living soul, Ecclesiastics 12:7.

John 3: 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

According to John 3:13 no one has ever ascended into heaven other than Christ. Scripture says we sleep in the ground until the coming of the Lord. Those whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life will be raised to everlasting life with God and those who names are not found will face Gods Great White Throne Judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire, John 5:28, 29; Revelations 20:11-15.

The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God. Only those who have faith in Christ are those who are spiritually alive while those with unbelief in Christ are spiritually dead, 1Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26; Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13.

The spirit/breath that is in man is God’s who gave it and will return back to God when this body physically dies as it will be reserved until judgment. Just because a person lives a good life, helps others and seems to be an all around good person whether they are alive or dead when Christ returns will be resurrected unto damnation if they are not Spiritually born again from above, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; John 5:28, 29.

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1Corinthians Chapter 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.

The soul departs from us when we physically die like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as it is eternal. Exodus 31:14 and Proverbs 11:30 are two examples of people referred to as souls as the human soul is created by God who gave breath to it, Genesis 2:7; Jeremiah 38:16.

The soul can be lost or saved as it belongs to God, Ezekiel 18:4; James 1:21. The soul is the part of the Spiritually born again that is purified and protected by the Holy Spirit and truth, 1 Peter 1:22 and Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls, 1 Peter 2:25.

These are the souls we read of in Rev 6:9-11 that are under the altar as they are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus took Peter, James and John up the mountain. He was there in person. His face shone like the Son and His clothes became as white as the light. That was not a vision. He was there. Then Moses and Elijah appeared before Him and we learn they were speaking to Him of His impeding departure. They were alive. Luke stated Peter, James, and John were fully awake and saw the two with Jesus.

You're entitled to believe that, but it's not what the Scriptures say. Yes, Jesus, Peter, James, and John where there. Moses and Elijah weren't. It was a vision.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:7-9 KJV)

Peter says it was Jesus coming in power.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 KJV)

According to Peter this was the coming of Christ. It obviously wasn't the first since Christ was already there. It couldn't have been the actual second coming because Jesus had not yet departed from the first coming. As Jesus said, it was a vision.

As Jesus stated though we were to die yet shall we live. Those that belong to Him "never" die.

Look at the order of events

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn. 11:25-26 KJV)

"though he were dead", So this one died, "yet shall he live", So the one who died will live. Thus Jesus is the Resurrection. Notice the word "shall" that it is future tense. So this one who died shall live in the future. Then He says, whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. So this one died and is made alive and having been made alive he will never die. So we see that this one was at first alive, then died, then was raised, and at that point he shall never die. So, this passage tells us that one receives eternal life at the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

I wanted to get to this...
The spirit never dies.
The soul,,,which is what we each ARE as a human being, also never dies. Only the body dies and will await resurrection.

If our spirit could die and/or our soul could die, then what makes us be eternal? Nothing.

Jesus said HE is the resurrection AND the Life.
Jesus states this in
John 11:25
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

He who believes in Jesus will LIVE even if he dies.

The Spirit is part of God so, it doesn't die, it returns to Him. The soul does die. Scripture says that Jesus gave His soul for sins

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.1 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:1 KJV)

We know that It was on the cross that Jesus dealt with sin. He gave His soul, life, for sins. As I said in the other post, soul is used two ways in Scripture, concretely as a living being and abstractly as life.

God said to Ezekiel,

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20 KJV)

God said, the soul that sins shall die. Who dies? Everyone. We could say the person who sins shall die. It makes perfect sense if we replace soul with person. We could also say the life that sins shall die.

You said, "If our spirit could die and/or our soul could die, then what makes us be eternal? Nothing." That is exactly right. We are not eternal. We are mortal. Paul, in his letter to Timothy, states plainly that the Father alone is immortal.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

The only one who has immortality is the one no one has seen nor can see. That's the Father. It's not Jesus because people have seen Him. So, according to Paul the Father is the only one who has immortality. That means that we don't. We're mortal.

Notice what Jesus said, the one who believes in Him will live even if he dies. What is He talking about? The Resurrection. He said it right there in that passage. So if someone believes in Him and dies that one will live again at the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

We're facing here the same problem we've had all along regarding this discussion.
You want to go only by scripture and I'm saying that scripture does not explain what man is completely.

The word soul, as I showed in my previous post, can be used to mean "man",,,but it is a metaphor...it is not reality.
The reality is that man is made of 3 parts:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

Some believe the soul and spirit can be combined...this would be fine with me.

The BODY is our physical self.
The SOUL is our psychical self...Our psychology.
The SPIRIT connects to God.

Here is the meaning of soul:

adjective Also psy·chi·cal.
1. of or relating to the human soul or mind; mental (opposed to physical).
2. Psychology. pertaining to or noting mental phenomena.
3. outside of natural or scientific knowledge; spiritual.
4. of or relating to some apparently nonphysical force or agencysychic research; psychic phenomena.
5. sensitive to influences or forces of a nonphysical or supernatural nature.

source: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/psychical

Any dictionary will give you the above meaning.
I know you're trying to stay with biblical definitions and I respect that...but in some cases we must go outside to find out the COMPLETE picture.

For instance:
How did we come to understand the Trinity?
How did we come to understand Justification?
And Sanctification --- since the N.T. sometimes uses the terms interchangeably.

The early church had no idea what the soul could be or that it could be a different entity.

The Bible tells us clearly that the body and the breath of God became a living Nephesh. The English translators translated that as a living soul. Some translate it as a living being. So, right there I would argue that the translators are not defining soul as the, will, mind, or emotions. They're translating it as a living being. We find in Genesis that animals too are called souls. It says, they are souls. A modern dictionary definition has no bearing on how the Bible uses words. You could probably use a modern definition to argue the translators chose the wrong word. But you can't use it to claim what the Bible means. The Bible was written long before the English word soul existed.

The problem with your argument, here, is that it's speculation and opinion. If you go outside of the Scriptures you have no authority, The Scriptures are God breathed, not a modern dictionary. Not to mention that words change over time.

It does NOT reside in the blood as you stated scripture says.

Psalm 107:9 What is hungry....man?
or something inside man?
For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.


Psalm 103:2
Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;
What is being asked to bless the LORD?
A person is already causing the blessing...he's saying that his SOUL is to bless the LORD.

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

We know that we cannot save a physical man from death...all men die. So what does SOUL mean in James?

It does say the soul is in the blood.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

Red=Nephesh

Psalm 107 can easily be understood as the thirsty or hungry person.

Psalm 103 can easily be understood as David blessing the Lord with his whole being.

James is talking about eternally. Turning a man from sin refers to his salvation, Turning one from sin restores him.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

In the above the dust (body) will return to the earth as God said in Genesis...
The Spirit will return to God.

What happens to the soul,,,,1 Thessalonians 5:23 tells us we are
BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Already at the time of Jesus there was some concept of Body Soul and Spirit due to the philosophers. This became clearer to the church as time went on. I could find something on this if necessary.

The soul dies. If you notice in this passage Paul uses first and second person pronouns. "You" denotes personhood, it's a person. "Your" denotes possession or ownership. If Paul said "your" body, soul, and spirit, it shows that they belong to "you". If someone said, "I saw your red truck" would that mean you are a red truck? Of course not. Because. "your" denotes possession or ownership, not personhood. Notice he wants them to be preserved complete. Saying body, soul, and spirit, is a way of saying the whole person. It's the complete person. It could also be translated your, body, life, and spirit.

As I said, it's a metaphore.
We are a living being...not only a soul.
Humans are made up of Body, Soul and Spirit.
It can be dichotomic or trichotomic, but we are 3 parts.

Can you explain the metaphor?
Can you show me where Scripture teaches that man is made of three parts?

A soul is NOT a living person....it is PART of a living person.

What let's each one of us be us if not the soul?
How do you explain that each person is totally different?

It's all through Scripture as a living person.

What makes us different is our physical make up and experiences. Why don't we all look alike. Because we have different Characteristics. our brains are all different. Some brains grow bigger than others, some smaller. Some have better memories, etc. Our experiences are all different. It's been shown that what we experience early on determines who we are later on.

If scripture is studied carefully, this conclusion will be reached.
I gave some verses above.
We've agreed to what a body is.
We agree to what the spirit is.

The body is our physical self.
The spirit connects us to God.

What about the rest of us?
Do we have a mind?
Do we have emotions?
Do we have a will?

WHERE are these located in the body?
The blood, the bones, where?

They are located in an unseen place known as the soul.

They're located in the brain. That's why brain damage affects a person's personality, behavior etc. Look at people who come back from war with PTSD. Things they've seen and experienced have affected their brains. Sometimes they're not the when they return.

I said the soul makes each one of us different and you came back with asking how you being alive is different than my being alive.

This is the problem with incorrect teachings....they change the meaning of everything.

We are alive in the same way....we eat, walk and breath...functions of the brain.

But are you THE SAME as I am?
WHAT makes you be different?

I asked because in the Scriptures soul means life. If the soul makes us different then your being alive should be different from my being alive. But, it's not different, it's the same. We're both alive by the breath of life.

I'm not the same as you. What makes us different is physical attributes and experiences.

 

[GodsGrace]

God breathed life (spirit) into us, Genesis 2:7, that made us a living soul and what goes back to God when this physical body dies (returns to the dust of the ground) is that very spirit of life God gave us that made us a living soul, Ecclesiastics 12:7.

John 3: 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

According to John 3:13 no one has ever ascended into heaven other than Christ. Scripture says we sleep in the ground until the coming of the Lord. Those whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life will be raised to everlasting life with God and those who names are not found will face Gods Great White Throne Judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire, John 5:28, 29; Revelations 20:11-15.

The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God. Only those who have faith in Christ are those who are spiritually alive while those with unbelief in Christ are spiritually dead, 1Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26; Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13.

The spirit/breath that is in man is God’s who gave it and will return back to God when this body physically dies as it will be reserved until judgment. Just because a person lives a good life, helps others and seems to be an all around good person whether they are alive or dead when Christ returns will be resurrected unto damnation if they are not Spiritually born again from above, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; John 5:28, 29.

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1Corinthians Chapter 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.

The soul departs from us when we physically die like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as it is eternal. Exodus 31:14 and Proverbs 11:30 are two examples of people referred to as souls as the human soul is created by God who gave breath to it, Genesis 2:7; Jeremiah 38:16.

The soul can be lost or saved as it belongs to God, Ezekiel 18:4; James 1:21. The soul is the part of the Spiritually born again that is purified and protected by the Holy Spirit and truth, 1 Peter 1:22 and Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls, 1 Peter 2:25.

These are the souls we read of in Rev 6:9-11 that are under the altar as they are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Hi FHG...
Must say good night to both you and Butch5 till the morning....
I believe you and I agree as to what the Spirit is and what the Soul is ---- we all believe what our physical body is.

Where you and I disagree then is what happens immediately after death. I could post more in the morning....

BUT could you answer this one question....

You said that the soul and the spirit (whether we want to say they are separate or combined) go back to be with God from where they came.

How could they be dead, if they go to be with God?

(I see that you believe in soul sleep....WHAT sleeps??)

 

[Randy]

You're entitled to believe that, but it's not what the Scriptures say. Yes, Jesus, Peter, James, and John where there. Moses and Elijah weren't. It was a vision.

You free to believe that as well but Moses and Elijah were there speaking to Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

You free to believe that as well but Moses and Elijah were there speaking to Jesus.

Well, as I said, you have Jesus' word on it.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:9 KJV)

 

[Randy]

Well, as I said, you have Jesus' word on it.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:9 KJV)

Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

So you believe Jesus was just a vision as He was speaking to the two?

And the new creation is not unmade at the death of the body
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--
Those who are one with Jesus will never die.

 

[Butch5]

Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

So you believe Jesus was just a vision as He was speaking to the two?

And the new creation is not unmade at the death of the body
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--
Those who are one with Jesus will never die.

Did you read my post? I said, Jesus, Peter, James, and John were there. Moses and Elijah weren't. As I've posted twice Jesus said it was a vision. Do you believe His words?

Yet, we see that the apostles died and all Christians die.

 

[Randy]

Did you read my post? I said, Jesus, Peter, James, and John were there. Moses and Elijah weren't. As I've posted twice Jesus said it was a vision. Do you believe His words?

Yet, we see that the apostles died and all Christians die.

You said Vision. Jesus was seen speaking to Moses and Elijah. Jesus was there but not Moses and Elijah? But the vision is Jesus, Moses and Elijah. They were allowed to see that discussion. Luke identifies the topic as His departure. So they must of also heard the discussion. I believe Jesus was there and Moses and Elijah and they were allowed to witness the meeting. Jesus describing the event a vision doesn't make two of the three not really there. So I believe Jesus as in that event took place with the three. Not one with the other two not really there. This was not a dream of something not real. Jesus was there transfigured before them.

 

[Hospes]

Well, as I said, you have Jesus' word on it.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:9 KJV)

B5, If I understand you, you are defining vision as seeing something that is not physically there. The word may also mean seeing something that is physically there. In Acts 7:31 the word is used in telling us that Moses was amazed at the "sight" of the burning bush. Unless you want to make the argument the burning bush was an apparition, then the word does not necessarily mean seeing something that is not physically there. (Love those double negatives!)
Hope that helps clear up a tiny bit of this convoluted discussion!

 

[Butch5]

You said Vision. Jesus was seen speaking to Moses and Elijah. Jesus was there but not Moses and Elijah? But the vision is Jesus, Moses and Elijah. They were allowed to see that discussion. Luke identifies the topic as His departure. So they must of also heard the discussion. I believe Jesus was there and Moses and Elijah and they were allowed to witness the meeting. Jesus describing the event a vision doesn't make two of the three not really there. So I believe Jesus as in that event took place with the three. Not one with the other two not really there. This was not a dream of something not real. Jesus was there transfigured before them.

Jesus said it was a vision. Jesus, Peter, James, and John, went up on the mountain. They were there. Moses and Elijah were dead, they weren't there. You see, you're assuming before the text that dead people are alive and then you're presenting this passage to prove dead people are alive. That's actually a logical fallacy known as begging the question. This passage doesn't say that Moses and Elijah were alive. Jesus said it was a vision, and Peter said it was Christ's coming in power. As I said before, it wasn't his first coming because He was already there. It obviously couldn't actually be His second coming because He had not left from the first coming.

There's nothing here that teaches dead people are alive. One simply must already assume that and impose it on the text.

 

[Butch5]

B5, If I understand you, you are defining vision as seeing something that is not physically there. The word may also mean seeing something that is physically there. In Acts 7:31 the word is used in telling us that Moses was amazed at the "sight" of the burning bush. Unless you want to make the argument the burning bush was an apparition, then the word does not necessarily mean seeing something that is not physically there. (Love those double negatives!)
Hope that helps clear up a tiny bit of this convoluted discussion!

It's not just one word. Moses and Elijah were dead. In addition to that Peter tells us that it was Christ's coming with power. It obviously wasn't His first coming. And it couldn't actually be the second since He hadn't left from His first coming. We know from Scripture that His second coming is with power.

The only thing that would lead on to think this was an actual event is the preconceived idea that dead people are alive. Which would cause one to wonder why they are called dead people.