What Is Baptism?

[GodsGrace]

Because Jesus was speaking in Aramaic...and it's a form of poetry like every lesson Jesus taught. The Gospels were written in Greek and Early Latin translations of the Aramaic words the action happened in...but when translated back into Aramaic the poetry becomes obvious.

And that's why sometimes things are said in a slightly off manner.

What do you mean?
Jesus told the Apostles to baptize in three names in Mathew 28
but He meant to baptize ONLY in HIS name???

 

[JohnDB]

What do you mean?
Jesus told the Apostles to baptize in three names in Mathew 28
but He meant to baptize ONLY in HIS name???

No...
What I'm saying is that it's a form of poetry.
God is "Holy, Holy, Holy".
It's a poetic line in Hebrew poetry having a specific meaning of "beyond complete".

Jesus, like God, always taught lessons in poetry. So that the words would stick in your brain like a song.

 

[Nathan]

maybe the Greek reads differently

I mean the actual definition, in Greek, of the word "baptize". Water is simply one of many mediums that baptism takes place in. In fact, as we clearly see, baptism does not always even take place in physical form.

Baptism/Baptize is simply a word used to describe a particular kind of action/thing.

 

[Nathan]

What false teaching??

I attribute the above more to the born again experience. Seeing the light --- seeing the Kingdom.
However, it doesn't change that I'm thinking about this, but it doesn't really help me either.
At least, not for now...

False teaching in the realm of someone saying a physical action/ritual has to be performed in a particular way. This is what religion is and what God was/is so detested against.

False teaching on baptism can take form in many different ways - but they all have one thing in common - an emphasis on the persons actions rather than the heart.

 

[reba]

I mean the actual definition, in Greek, of the word "baptize". Water is simply one of many mediums that baptism takes place in. In fact, as we clearly see, baptism does not always even take place in physical form.

Baptism/Baptize is simply a word used to describe a particular kind of action/thing.

Baptism was not the word/phrase i was wondering about ...
If you or anyone knows the greek for
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Having zero knowledge of Greek when i look at this with the Strong's numbers it reads to me different then what i grew up understanding ..( I was baptized with the words the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Mat 28:19 GoG4198 ye therefore,G3767 and teachG3100 allG3956 nations,G1484 baptizingG907 themG846 inG1519 theG3588 nameG3686 of theG3588 Father,G3962 andG2532 of theG3588 Son,G5207 andG2532 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost:G4151

 

[JohnDB]

Baptism was not the word/phrase i was wondering about ...
If you or anyone knows the greek for
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The Greek isn't as relevant as the Aramaic/Hebrew Jesus originally spoke it in.

Don't miss the forest because the trees are in your way.

Edited to add:
One other point.
Baptizo is a Greek word Jesus used...one of the few.
But considering that this word is about dyeing cloth it fits perfectly in this fashion.

The whole poetic expression about Baptism is full of several commands and prohibitions.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan

I understand what you're saying, including the fact that we should be baptized in water.

BUT, then WHY should we be baptized in water AT ALL if you're premise is correct??

I believe the key to this is in
Acts 1:5
John baptized with WATER
but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Did Jesus mean baptized with water in the Holy Spirit?
Or did He mean that the Holy Spirit would fall upon them with no water??

Then in Acts 2, Pentecost, the holy Spirit fell upon them with no water, as a tongue of fire.

I must say that from the beginning, as I've posted the Didache and so has Jim Parker, the early Christians did continue to baptize with water and in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I must say that when I need to filter ideas I always go back to the early church.

Maybe THEY understood better than we do because they were so close to the Apostles. Ideas have changed during the centuries that have gone by.

John does say that not everything is written down because it would not fit.

I think its a good thing to be baptized in water to show your understanding, and acceptance, of the Gospel message. Its a way to 'identify' yourself and have a physical memory to look back on.

The Holy Spirit no doubt fell on them without any water. Going back to false teaching for a min, I actually had a guy tell me once that because I was baptized(in water) with the words "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" - that I had not actually received the baptism of the Spirit......because they did not say "Jesus Christ".

The words said, when being baptized in water, have no mystical powers. That is religion.

However, the teaching that is taught, when being baptized in the the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - that has the power to guide ones faith.

Man is naturally inclined to be religious. Take a moment and think of the children of Israel. They came to a mountain that was unbelievable in sight and sound. God Himself descended on that mountain. They were in awe of it. And just as soon as a little time passed on by - they got bored with the real and only God, and decided to make a golden calf to worship.

Why do we think the early church would not have done the same? Are we really that vain to think we are somehow superior to that kind of persuasion?

 

[reba]

the forest is not as exact as a tree..

So what is it in Aramaic/Hebrew?

 

[JohnDB]

the forest is not as exact as a tree..

So what is it in Aramaic/Hebrew?

Read the edit.

 

[Papa Zoom]

For Petes sake get symbolically buried and resurrected ..into Christ
Maybe Christians should fuss over what was Jesus wearing when He was baptized .. Heaven help us which way was He facing, north south east or west ? . Was John the Baptizer right or left handed? was it morning or night ..

here we are
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

You took the words right out of my mouth. The command to be baptized has to be easy to understand so that an illiterate farmer in the poorest of nations understands it. I did some reading this morning on the question of the way to be baptized and one Phd went on and on and even into the old testament. How silly. God did not intend it to be that complicated. We Christians always mess up simple things.

Find water, get dunked. Done.

Here's the simplest explanation I've found. One simple paragraph and he's right on:

Did the Apostles baptize wrong in the Book of Acts since they baptized in the name of Jesus?

There is a debate that says believers must be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matt 28: 19) rather than in the name of Jesus only as the Book of Acts records. The Jesus-only people are also modalists which means they do not believe in the Trinity but in Jesus Only, hence they baptize only in his name. The confusion lies in the different formulas for baptism in Matthew and Acts. The solution is that either formula is acceptable since they are both Biblical. What is not acceptable is the modalist theology behind the Jesus Only belief that denies the personhood of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Lawrence Terlizzese, Ph.D.

Posted Feb. 29, 2012
© 2012 Probe Ministries

also this: https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Jesus-name.html <----if you don't take the time to read this very short essay, don't respond to my post please.

 

[Nathan]

Baptism was not the word/phrase i was wondering about ...
If you or anyone knows the greek for
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Having zero knowledge of Greek when i look at this with the Strong's numbers it reads to me different then what i grew up understanding ..( I was baptized with the words the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Mat 28:19 GoG4198 ye therefore,G3767 and teachG3100 allG3956 nations,G1484 baptizingG907 themG846 inG1519 theG3588 nameG3686 of theG3588 Father,G3962 andG2532 of theG3588 Son,G5207 andG2532 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost:G4151

Ah, I see. I agree with John, your not going to find much 'help' in looking at the Greek word definition.

What we can do is look at the plain meaning. There are many 'names' of God. But since we do see it as a singular sense I would put forth that Jesus was meaning the following. Although, I would not stop there when teaching - I would teach all about the names of God.

When we "baptize" someone in the name of the Father - we immerse them in the meaning and truth of Adonai(Lord, Master). The name of the Son would be immersing them in the meaning and truth of Jesus(Jehovah is Salvation). The name of the Holy Spirit would be immersing them in the meaning and truth of Ruach HaKodesh(The Spirit of the Holy One).

When you do this, you completely 'overwhelm'(baptize) someone in the complete truth of who God is. You cannot serve, worship, or love something you do not know. What did Jesus tell the woman at the well?

Jhn 4:21-24
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[GodsGrace]

You took the words right out of my mouth. The command to be baptized has to be easy to understand so that an illiterate farmer in the poorest of nations understands it. I did some reading this morning on the question of the way to be baptized and one Phd went on and on and even into the old testament. How silly. God did not intend it to be that complicated. We Christians always mess up simple things.

Find water, get dunked. Done.

Here's the simplest explanation I've found. One simple paragraph and he's right on:

also this: https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Jesus-name.html <----if you don't take the time to read this very short essay, don't respond to my post please.

I read it Papa, and I believe I've put forth all the concepts in Got Questions.
There is little new about baptism.

In Acts 2:38, Phillip batpized the Ethiopian in water.
Acts 8:16 tell us that the Samarians were baptized ONLY in the name of Jesus and Peter and John layed hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. No water.
Acts 19:1-6 The Ephesians were baptized in the name of John. And they were told this as if they HAD to be baptized... (into what then, were you baptized?)

Then they were baptized in the name of Jesus and when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them.

Maybe we're supposed to lay hands on people too?

Is water always necessary for baptism?
Interesting question.

JohnDB, what say you?

 

[JohnDB]

Symbolic bathing was used in a couple of different fashions...all religious based.

Priests used a Mikveh to bathe in before putting on the robes of office. Then they had the right to teach and administer God's word. Somebody might be ceremonially washed into a sect of Judaism (like the Pharisees, Essenes, or Sadducees)

John and Jesus didn't "wash" (said in Hebrew) but instead referred to this bath as a Greek word "Baptism" which referred to dyeing cloth. In which now those who went through the ceremony could now have the right to teach and administer God's word.

Once a piece of cloth is dyed it's forever changed and can't be changed back. The effect of this dyeing will never be undone.

The line about "go make disciples" is one said by Rabbi to their disciples Meaning that they were now Rabbi.
Then instead of Baptizing disciples into their own name (common among Rabbi) they were to baptize in God's names. (Said three times for beyond being complete) Meaning that discipleship by them and God was mandatory.

 

[JohnDB]

I read it Papa, and I believe I've put forth all the concepts in Got Questions.
There is little new about baptism.

In Acts 2:38, Phillip batpized the Ethiopian in water.
Acts 8:16 tell us that the Samarians were baptized ONLY in the name of Jesus and Peter and John layed hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. No water.
Acts 19:1-6 The Ephesians were baptized in the name of John. And they were told this as if they HAD to be baptized... (into what then, were you baptized?)

Then they were baptized in the name of Jesus and when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them.

Maybe we're supposed to lay hands on people too?

Is water always necessary for baptism?
Interesting question.

JohnDB, what say you?

Dye (which contains water) is needed for Baptism.

It's all about changing the cloth.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Dye (which contains water) is needed for Baptism.

It's all about changing the cloth.

interesting stuff in your posts. I didn't know that about the dye connection. What a great analogy of the changed life.

 

[reba]

Thanks guys .. You have reaffirmed what i believe...

 

[JLB]

The Father has many names, or are they all titles??
Yahweh,

That is also the Son's name.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord [YHWH] my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


The Day of YHWH [the Lord] is the Day of Christ, when He returns with His saints from Heaven.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What is the name of the Holy Spirit??

Why didn't Jesus just say to baptize in HIS name??

There are three Baptism's, not one.

Church tradition has made water Baptism to be performed in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, instead of seeing three Baptism's, one for each of the Godhead.

If we get right down to it, water Baptism is done is response to the person's faith: the obedience of faith.

We have faith in Jesus Christ, and believe on His name.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
John 1:12

The scripture says they were Baptized into the Name of Jesus Christ.

• Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16

• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3

JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Symbolic bathing was used in a couple of different fashions...all religious based.

Priests used a Mikveh to bathe in before putting on the robes of office. Then they had the right to teach and administer God's word. Somebody might be ceremonially washed into a sect of Judaism (like the Pharisees, Essenes, or Sadducees)

John and Jesus didn't "wash" (said in Hebrew) but instead referred to this bath as a Greek word "Baptism" which referred to dyeing cloth. In which now those who went through the ceremony could now have the right to teach and administer God's word.

Once a piece of cloth is dyed it's forever changed and can't be changed back. The effect of this dyeing will never be undone.

The line about "go make disciples" is one said by Rabbi to their disciples Meaning that they were now Rabbi.
Then instead of Baptizing disciples into their own name (common among Rabbi) they were to baptize in God's names. (Said three times for beyond being complete) Meaning that discipleship by them and God was mandatory.

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

In your statement: "Once a piece of clothe is dyed it's forever changed and can't be changed back. The effect of this dying will never be undone." Would this be evidence for "once you are saved you can never be lost"?

Not trying to derail but this immediately popped up in my mind.

 

[JohnDB]

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

In your statement: "Once a piece of clothe is dyed it's forever changed and can't be changed back. The effect of this dying will never be undone." Would this be evidence for "once you are saved you can never be lost"?

Not trying to derail but this immediately popped up in my mind.

Nope...red is red and blue is blue. Blue isn't red. And purple isn't red or blue.

Edited to add:

There's a verse by Paul saying something about us all being baptized with the same batch of dye. (I'm sure that you know it) that where we are all different...the batch of dye is the same batch Meaning the same color.