What Is Baptism?

[Jim Parker]

You know the Greek language well enough. You know baptism does not alway mean water. Water is one thing, among many, that something can be 'baptized' into.

And thus you distort the teaching of scripture and the historical church without actually saying exactly what you mean.

 

[reba]

maybe the Greek reads differently

 

[reba]

Drop the personal battle Admin

 

[Jim Parker]

Which name of the Father ? exactly?

It is astounding to me that you even have to ask.

 

[reba]

In English the exact words are in the name of the Father ... exactly which name.. the term exact words have been brought up.. the exact words are in the name of the Father .. Which name of the Father woudl that be?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it is a must to be born of water(truth) and spirit(Holy Spirit).

What did Jesus tell the woman at the well, what is God seeking?

One must believe in the truth and have the seal of God, if they will ever enter the Kingdom of God.

John 3:18 (ESV) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:19 (ESV) 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

John 3:20 (ESV) 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

John 3:21 (ESV) 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

There is false teaching and false spirits out there.

What false teaching??

I attribute the above more to the born again experience. Seeing the light --- seeing the Kingdom.
However, it doesn't change that I'm thinking about this, but it doesn't really help me either.
At least, not for now...

 

[GodsGrace]

Full teaching of the God head. If you are going to follow someone, be a disciple, then it behooves you to know who your following right? It's important so you don't get led astray.

It's important to know who the Father is and His distinction. Same for the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

False theology often has one or two understandings correct, but twists the other(s).

Each part of the Godhead is distinct.

John 16:13 (ESV) 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

John 16:14 (ESV) 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

John 16:15 (ESV) 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

I used to teach kids about how each person of the Trinity is distinct. I have no problem with this.
Each person has His own attributes and work to be done. They are distinct and yet all one.
No problem here.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's exactly what you said in your post # 346
"The water someone is baptized in cannot wash away sins. Neither does it matter what is said, if anything at all, when someone is baptized in water - a phrase will only be honor with lips toward God." after quoting:
“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’"

Thus you have said that to do as Jesus commanded is to only honor Jesus with ones lips but have one's heart far from Him.

And now your back-peddling.
So, again:
Can you explain why you refuse to accept Jesus instruction?
Can you explain why you tell people that it's not important to do what Jesus commanded that they do?

Jim,
The reason Nathan has me thinking about this is because of what the RCC does. It baptizes babies. So Nathan would be right in this case. The words make no difference since the baby is not even saying them. That church teaches that, at some point, the adult person must ACCEPT their baptism. Proving that unless one has knowledge of what he is doing, the baptism is of no effect. Which means that in and of itself, it cannot do anything.

??

John baptized with water....
But there is one coming after me who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Thinking...

 

[GodsGrace]

Nathan

I understand what you're saying, including the fact that we should be baptized in water.

BUT, then WHY should we be baptized in water AT ALL if you're premise is correct??

I believe the key to this is in
Acts 1:5
John baptized with WATER
but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Did Jesus mean baptized with water in the Holy Spirit?
Or did He mean that the Holy Spirit would fall upon them with no water??

Then in Acts 2, Pentecost, the holy Spirit fell upon them with no water, as a tongue of fire.

I must say that from the beginning, as I've posted the Didache and so has Jim Parker, the early Christians did continue to baptize with water and in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I must say that when I need to filter ideas I always go back to the early church.

Maybe THEY understood better than we do because they were so close to the Apostles. Ideas have changed during the centuries that have gone by.

John does say that not everything is written down because it would not fit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not convinced He said to baptize in the three names. He said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,..." So, I wonder what is "the name?" What is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but none other than God. Since the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9) and the Scripture records the disciples using Jesus' name in baptizing and His name is the name above all names (Philippians 2:9) then it seems to show that "the name" is Jesus.

Hi Wip,

I don't see the difference in whether it's THE NAME or THE NAMES. Name is singular, the then Jesus goes on to say three names. He did NOT say only one name --- so He meant all three or He would not have said them.

I don't think we should question what Jesus said or His grammar.

Also, you say that in the name of Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead. If we're to believe in the Trinity then the fullness of the Godhead is in EACH name. The Father is the fullness, the Son is the fullness, and the Holy Spirit is the fullness (of the Godhead). Otherwise, what you're saying is that the fullness is in the name of Jesus but not the other two.

When we're told that in Jesus is the only name, it means that in HIM is our salvation and that the WORK of the Son is to save us. As I mentioned, each Person has attributes and works. The work of Jesus is to die and save us.

In fact Philippians 2:9 is speaking to this. Philippians 2:11, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. HE is the one that was sent to us to explain the Kingdom, how to be a part of it and receive salvation.

(Colossians is speaking about human tradition, but I'm speaking about what Jesus said in Mathew 28)

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you believe there are three different names for the Father and Son and Holy Spirit?

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9


In the old testament, the Hebrew word or God is Elohiym, which is plural and covers all Three.

This scripture was just posted in another thread, and conveys this simple truth.

The Spirit of Christ speaking through Isaiah:

“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
Isaiah 48:16-17


What is the Name of the Father, if not Jesus; The name above all names?
What is the Name of the Holy Spirit, if not Jesus; The name above all names?



JLB

I don't understand the Trinity this way JLB.
The name of the Father is Father
The name of the Son is Son
The name of the Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit

Jesus is the name above all names for our salvation. I spoke to this in my reply to WIP just above.

You also ask what is the name of the Son.
Could it be Emmanuel? God with us.

Jesus was born as a human and given a human name. He is our Savior and our Lord. His name is above all names on earth because He died for us and saves us. There is no other name which we could call to do this for us. This was His work. John 3:16 God gave His only Son so that we may be saved who believe in Him.

The Lord God and His Spirit have sent ME.
Yes. But the problem in understanding the Godhead is a big problem.
The Lord God ..... Father
His Spirit ............. The Holy Spirit
Have sent ME......Jesus

Also, you must surely know that in the O.T. it was understood that the Spirit of God meant the spirit that belongs to God, NOT the Holy Spirit.

Although the Trinity is seen in the O.T. and the N.T., it was not formulated until after Jesus ascended.

 

[WIP]

I don't think we should question what Jesus said or His grammar.

I'm not questioning Jesus. I'm questioning our understanding of what He truly meant by what He said as recorded in Matthew 28. When I search the Scriptures, so far I can't find any recorded reference of anyone baptizing using the words of Jesus as recorded in Matthew 28. What I do find is recorded examples of His disciples baptizing in that one great, wonderful, and glorious name...Jesus. Is the name, Jesus, synonymous with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (God, Jehovah, YHWH) and therefore have His disciples demonstrated what Jesus meant by what He said? Keeping in mind that, "He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures." Luke 24:45 NKJV

I'm not trying to teach anyone or push another gospel or theology. I'm trying to understand what I read in the Bible. I want to be sure we're not stuck on tradition. Is this not what Theology is about? Digging to gain a deeper understanding so that we can explain what we believe and why we believe it? Baptism is a mystery I can't seem to wrap my mind around.

 

[chessman]

Deuteronomy 18:20 (NASB) But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ ​

Speaking in the name of God (even if it is literally one of God's many names) presuming any created thing (even His church or His disciples or His earthly priests) saves someone is going against God's word. God saves. Jesus saves. The Holy Spirit saves. Period!

Deuteronomy 18:22 (NASB) When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.​

Air flowing across vocal cords does NOT save.

 

[JLB]

I don't understand the Trinity this way JLB.
The name of the Father is Father
The name of the Son is Son
The name of the Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit

Jesus is the name above all names for our salvation. I spoke to this in my reply to WIP just above.

You also ask what is the name of the Son.
Could it be Emmanuel? God with us.

Jesus was born as a human and given a human name. He is our Savior and our Lord. His name is above all names on earth because He died for us and saves us. There is no other name which we could call to do this for us. This was His work. John 3:16 God gave His only Son so that we may be saved who believe in Him.

The Lord God and His Spirit have sent ME.
Yes. But the problem in understanding the Godhead is a big problem.
The Lord God ..... Father
His Spirit ............. The Holy Spirit
Have sent ME......Jesus

Also, you must surely know that in the O.T. it was understood that the Spirit of God meant the spirit that belongs to God, NOT the Holy Spirit.

Although the Trinity is seen in the O.T. and the N.T., it was not formulated until after Jesus ascended.

How can the name of the Son be "Son"?

Son is not a name.

I'm a son, which is a designation, or title.

However I have a name.

His name is Jesus, the name above every Name.

Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.”
Acts 3:6

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11


Here are some examples from the scriptures concerning Baptism.

• Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16

• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3

JLB

 

[JohnDB]

The Mikveh the Levites washed in is relevant to Baptism.

The Essenes that John lived with after his parents died is also relevant...they "baptized"/ceremonial bathed once a week at a minimum.

The fact that "Baptism" is a term referring to dyeing cloth is of course relevant to as well.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is the name above all names for our salvation. I spoke to this in my reply to WIP just above.

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

I would say the name of Jesus pertains to salvation, as well as baptism.

Those who believe and are baptized will be saved.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Those who believe and are baptized will be saved.

Luke 8:13 (NASB) Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, _______ and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:6 (NASB) Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had _____ moisture.
​

A. No
B. Some
C. A sprinkling of
D. An immersion of
E. A formula stated plus water bath

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not questioning Jesus. I'm questioning our understanding of what He truly meant by what He said as recorded in Matthew 28. When I search the Scriptures, so far I can't find any recorded reference of anyone baptizing using the words of Jesus as recorded in Matthew 28. What I do find is recorded examples of His disciples baptizing in that one great, wonderful, and glorious name...Jesus. Is the name, Jesus, synonymous with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (God, Jehovah, YHWH) and therefore have His disciples demonstrated what Jesus meant by what He said? Keeping in mind that, "He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures." Luke 24:45 NKJV

I'm not trying to teach anyone or push another gospel or theology. I'm trying to understand what I read in the Bible. I want to be sure we're not stuck on tradition. Is this not what Theology is about? Digging to gain a deeper understanding so that we can explain what we believe and why we believe it? Baptism is a mystery I can't seem to wrap my mind around.

It's a mystery to me too, which is why I started this thread. I feel like there's a lot more to understand.
You say you searched the scriptures regarding Mathew 28. Why didn't He just say, "baptize in MY name"??
Every name is synonymous with every other name...

No one here is teaching a different gospel, just trying to understand the one we have and know.
I see you point about Luke 24:45, but why would Jesus say something different from what He really meant.
Do you think Mathew 28 was written AFTER the doctrine on baptism? Certainly not!

 

[JohnDB]

You say you searched the scriptures regarding Mathew 28. Why didn't He just say, "baptize in MY name"??
Every name is synonymous with every other name...

Because Jesus was speaking in Aramaic...and it's a form of poetry like every lesson Jesus taught. The Gospels were written in Greek and Early Latin translations of the Aramaic words the action happened in...but when translated back into Aramaic the poetry becomes obvious.

And that's why sometimes things are said in a slightly off manner.

 

[GodsGrace]

How can the name of the Son be "Son"?

Son is not a name.

I'm a son, which is a designation, or title.

However I have a name.

His name is Jesus, the name above every Name.

Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.”
Acts 3:6

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11


Here are some examples from the scriptures concerning Baptism.

• Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16

• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3

JLB

The Father has many names, or are they all titles??
Yahweh,
El

The Son's name could be Emmanuel, I believe I said this.

What is the name of the Holy Spirit??

Why didn't Jesus just say to baptize in HIS name??

I don't have a bible here, but notice your posted scripture:
Acts 8:16
The Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on any of them, they had ONLY been baptized in the NAME OF JESUS.

Acts 19:3 there is no water even mentioned. The disciples had been baptized by John (in water)
So Paul put his hands on them and that's when they received the Holy Spirit.

So, is being baptized in the name of Jesus important or not??
In Acts 8:16 it seems as though it isn't...