What Is Baptism?

[WIP]

Jesus said to baptize in the three names, for whatever reason, maybe to give Glory to each one individually since each one is also an individual with His own attributes and works.

I'm not convinced He said to baptize in the three names. He said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,..." So, I wonder what is "the name?" What is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but none other than God. Since the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9) and the Scripture records the disciples using Jesus' name in baptizing and His name is the name above all names (Philippians 2:9) then it seems to show that "the name" is Jesus.

 

[reba]

For Petes sake get symbolically buried and resurrected ..into Christ
Maybe Christians should fuss over what was Jesus wearing when He was baptized .. Heaven help us which way was He facing, north south east or west ? . Was John the Baptizer right or left handed? was it morning or night ..

here we are
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 

[Nathan]

There is no way to understand this unless a person comes to the plain understanding that baptism does not always mean in water.

Like my grandpa used to tell me when I was missing something obvious; "If it was a snake it would have bit you!"

Here is the way a few different translations put it - maybe it will help open the eyes.

YLT
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

ASV
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

HNV
Go, and make talmidim of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Ruach HaKodesh,

If we could pull away from religious works, and see who Jesus is and what He came to do, we would see that people are looking at baptism as something in the sense of man and not the way God wants it. Do people really think there is a "formula" for obeying Christ? Can we not see that baptism has turned into the proverbial Sabbath of Jesus day?

Gal 2:4
Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—

Gal 5:1
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

 

[reba]

in agreement Nathan
Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

 

[Jim Parker]

Traditions that are set forth by Jesus, and His Apostles in scripture, as examples are for us to follow.
Example of the tradition of Baptizing people as set forth by the Apostles in scripture:
JLB

Scripture is not our only source of identifying the traditions of the apostles. There is the evidence from the early church as to their practices. For example, from the generation contemporary with and immediately after the apostles:

Baptism in the Didache (Late 1st early 2nd century)
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...Those who lead to the washing the one who is to be washed call on [God by] this term only. For no one may give a proper name to the ineffable God, and if anyone should dare to say that there is one, he is hopelessly insane. This washing is called illumination, since those who learn these things are illumined within. The illumin and is also washed in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything about Jesus.

The scriptures which you provided indicating that new believers where baptized in the name of Jesus does not speak to the fact that those who were baptizing were commanded by Jesus to use the three names, not just in Jesus' name. You have provided no evidence that (1) Jesus didn't really mean what He said or that (2) the Apostles made up their own practice rather than obeying the one for Whom all but John would give his life.

Meanwhile, we have reliable historical data which shows that Baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit was the standard practice of the Church as early as the end of the first century and that, in such a format (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it was received from the apostles.

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Mar 7:1-7
Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches). And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

The water someone is baptized in cannot wash away sins. Neither does it matter what is said, if anything at all, when someone is baptized in water - a phrase will only be honor with lips toward God. Being baptized in water is good. Its a good thing. It should be done. But it is not the focus of what true baptism is.

What does matter is someone becoming a disciple, knowing the truth, and following Christ. This takes place when a person is transformed by the Word of God, which is contained in the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Be immersed in the truth and you will find the freedom that Christ came to set us free. You will understand forgiveness and see how your sins have been taken away.

In the name of Jesus the Christ we have the authority to make disciples of all people. And in His name, we have the authority to bring them under the instruction and knowledge of the only and true living God. Furthermore, in His name, we have the authority to teach them all things that Christ commanded - for He is with us always - and works through us for His good pleasure.

We should stay away from the traditions of men which are of no eternal value and can often be a snare to our soul. God desires us to worship Him in spirit and in truth, not by the commandments of man or their traditions.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is it easier to believe that that to believe that baptism doesn't always mean in water?

Have been thinking about this.
Maybe John 3 speaks to this too.
One must be born of water and of spirit...

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no way to understand this unless a person comes to the plain understanding that baptism does not always mean in water.

Like my grandpa used to tell me when I was missing something obvious; "If it was a snake it would have bit you!"

Here is the way a few different translations put it - maybe it will help open the eyes.

YLT
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

ASV
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

HNV
Go, and make talmidim of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Ruach HaKodesh,

If we could pull away from religious works, and see who Jesus is and what He came to do, we would see that people are looking at baptism as something in the sense of man and not the way God wants it. Do people really think there is a "formula" for obeying Christ? Can we not see that baptism has turned into the proverbial Sabbath of Jesus day?

Gal 2:4
Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—

Gal 5:1
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

OK.
But then why did Jesus say to baptize in the three names?
Mathew 28:19

 

[Nathan]

Have been thinking about this.
Maybe John 3 speaks to this too.
One must be born of water and of spirit...

Yes, it is a must to be born of water(truth) and spirit(Holy Spirit).

What did Jesus tell the woman at the well, what is God seeking?

One must believe in the truth and have the seal of God, if they will ever enter the Kingdom of God.

John 3:18 (ESV) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:19 (ESV) 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

John 3:20 (ESV) 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

John 3:21 (ESV) 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

There is false teaching and false spirits out there.

 

[Nathan]

OK.
But then why did Jesus say to baptize in the three names?
Mathew 28:19

Full teaching of the God head. If you are going to follow someone, be a disciple, then it behooves you to know who your following right? It's important so you don't get led astray.

It's important to know who the Father is and His distinction. Same for the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

False theology often has one or two understandings correct, but twists the other(s).

Each part of the Godhead is distinct.

John 16:13 (ESV) 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

John 16:14 (ESV) 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

John 16:15 (ESV) 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

 

[Jim Parker]

The water someone is baptized in cannot wash away sins.

That is a metaphor.
Paul said that, in baptism we are united to Christ in His death and burial. (RO 6:2-3)
Paul further says that, in baptism, the "that the body of sin (is) away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.. (Ro 6:6)
So the "washing away of sin" is the death of the old man of sin.

Neither does it matter what is said,

Wrong. Obeying Jesus command DOES matter. And Jesus commanded specifically that everyone be baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Do you think it is necessary for a Christian to obey Jesus' commands?

Being baptized in water is good. Its a good thing. It should be done. But it is not the focus of what true baptism is.
What does matter is someone becoming a disciple, knowing the truth, and following Christ.

"Following Christ" INCLUDES keeping His commands. One of His commands was to get baptized and for the baptizer to baptize in all 3 names. That's what people do when they "follow Christ."

This takes place when a person is transformed by the Word of God, which is contained in the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Be immersed in the truth and you will find the freedom that Christ came to set us free. You will understand forgiveness and see how your sins have been taken away.

So, you see Christianity as a form of Gnosticism.
The scriptures repeatedly say it's what you DO not what you know.

We should stay away from the traditions of men

Jesus command is NOT part of the "traditions of men."

What is your problem with Baptism In water In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit EXACTLY as Jesus commanded it to be done?

I don't understand you refusal to accept Jesus' words as authoritative for a Christian.

Your resistance to Jesus' command is baffling. Can you explain why you refuse to accept Jesus instruction?

Can you explain why you tell people that it's not important to do what Jesus commanded that they do?

 

[Nathan]

That is a metaphor.
Paul said that, in baptism we are united to Christ in His death and burial. (RO 6:2-3)
Paul further says that, in baptism, the "that the body of sin (is) away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.. (Ro 6:6)
So the "washing away of sin" is the death of the old man of sin.

Wrong. Obeying Jesus command DOES matter. And Jesus commanded specifically that everyone be baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Do you think it is necessary for a Christian to obey Jesus' commands?

"Following Christ" INCLUDES keeping His commands. One of His commands was to get baptized and for the baptizer to baptize in all 3 names. That's what people do when they "follow Christ."

So, you see Christianity as a form of Gnosticism.
The scriptures repeatedly say it's what you DO not what you know.

Jesus command is NOT part of the "traditions of men."

What is your problem with Baptism In water In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit EXACTLY as Jesus commanded it to be done?

I don't understand you refusal to accept Jesus' words as authoritative for a Christian.

Your resistance to Jesus' command is baffling. Can you explain why you refuse to accept Jesus instruction?

Can you explain why you tell people that it's not important to do what Jesus commanded that they do?

I do believe it is important to do what Jesus said - all of it - as He said it. *edit (not as we think He said it or meant it).

 

[Jim Parker]

I do believe it is important to do what Jesus said - all of it - as He said it.

That's not what your posts say.

 

[Nathan]

That's not what your posts say.

Actually, that's not what you think my post says. :wink

 

[Jim Parker]

Actually, that's not what you think my post says. :wink

It's exactly what you said in your post # 346
"The water someone is baptized in cannot wash away sins. Neither does it matter what is said, if anything at all, when someone is baptized in water - a phrase will only be honor with lips toward God." after quoting:
“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’"

Thus you have said that to do as Jesus commanded is to only honor Jesus with ones lips but have one's heart far from Him.

And now your back-peddling.
So, again:
Can you explain why you refuse to accept Jesus instruction?
Can you explain why you tell people that it's not important to do what Jesus commanded that they do?

 

[Jim Parker]

For Petes sake get symbolically buried and resurrected ..into Christ
Maybe Christians should fuss over what was Jesus wearing when He was baptized .. Heaven help us which way was He facing, north south east or west ? . Was John the Baptizer right or left handed? was it morning or night ..

here we are
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

I think you're missing the point.
Jesus gave specific commands.
Nathan is telling us that Jesus' specific commands are not that important.
The scriptures state exactly what Baptism is about. (Ro 6:2-3)
Nathan is peddling his own ideas.

That seems to me to be a conflict or perhaps I don't understand what is meant by:
Do not promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity. (ToS 2.2)"

Or perhaps you also think that doing as Christ commanded and what the historical church has taught for 2000 years is to "strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."

Or maybe I'm just taking Jesus exact words too seriously?

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

It's exactly what you said in your post # 346
"The water someone is baptized in cannot wash away sins. Neither does it matter what is said, if anything at all, when someone is baptized in water - a phrase will only be honor with lips toward God." after quoting:
“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’"

Thus you have said that to do as Jesus commanded is to only honor Jesus with ones lips but have one's heart far from Him.

And now your back-peddling.
So, again:
Can you explain why you refuse to accept Jesus instruction?
Can you explain why you tell people that it's not important to do what Jesus commanded that they do?

I posted exactly what Jesus said to do - as He said to do it - not how some people think it means.

 

[Jim Parker]

I posted exactly what Jesus said to do - as He said to do it - not how some people think it means.

And how do "some people think it means"?
What are you talking about?
You seem to be promoting your own notions over the teaching of scripture and of the historical church.
Please clarify exactly what you think Baptism is and whether the words "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" are necessary.

 

[Nathan]

And how do "some people think it means"?
What are you talking about?
You seem to be promoting your own notions over the teaching of scripture and of the historical church.
Please clarify exactly what you think Baptism is and whether the words "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" are necessary.

I already did post what your asking - in detail - when replying to wondering. You can read those and understand.

You know the Greek language well enough. You know baptism does not alway mean water. Water is one thing, among many, that something can be 'baptized' into.

 

[reba]

I think you're missing the point.
Jesus gave specific commands.
Nathan is telling us that Jesus' specific commands are not that important.
The scriptures state exactly what Baptism is about. (Ro 6:2-3)
Nathan is peddling his own ideas.

That seems to me to be a conflict or perhaps I don't understand what is meant by:
Do not promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity. (ToS 2.2)"

Or perhaps you also think that doing as Christ commanded and what the historical church has taught for 2000 years is to "strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."

Or maybe I'm just taking Jesus exact words too seriously?

iakov the fool

Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The Exact Words of Jesus ? Which name of the Father ? exactly?