Thanks Wondering,
Would you further expand on your statement: 'Symbolically it's us dying to ourselves. Why would Jesus command this if it were not so important?'
How do you support such a view biblically?
Oz
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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What Is Baptism?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Thanks Wondering,
Would you further expand on your statement: 'Symbolically it's us dying to ourselves. Why would Jesus command this if it were not so important?'
How do you support such a view biblically?
Oz
Sounds like a personal Bible study.
Miss wondering, since you are the teacher, can I join in?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I will, but not now.
I believe Romans and Corinthians speak to how we die to ourselves.
When we go into the water we symbolically "die" to the sin nature, to original sin...
When we come up out of the water it's like the resurrection of Christ...we're spiritually alive to a new life.
Behold old things are passed away, all things are new.
Nathan,
There is not one word in any of the translations on Biblegateway that states that Matt 28:19-20 (ESV) refers to 'spiritual baptism'. Not a word. That's your eisegesis of the text.
Oz
Nathan
Member
I'm speaking of the meaning, definition of the Greek word used.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I wish you would.
I'm not here to teach...
I'm here to learn.
I believe there's a lot more to baptism than we think, or Jesus would not have commanded it.
Nathan
Member
Meaning and definition of which Greek word used in Matt 28:19-20?
Do you know how to read and understand NT Greek? Do you know how to exegete NT Greek?
Oz
Last edited:
Nathan
Member
I only know enough to give me understanding.
Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
"baptizing"
baptizō
This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. blueletterbible.org
If Jesus was telling them to just temporarily immerse them in water, then we would see the word bapto. But we see the word baptizo, which is used to describe a process of putting a vegatable into the solution - producing a permanent change.
The very fact that Jesus said to do this, in the 'name' of _______, preceding it with "teach all nations", and then follows it up with "teaching them to observe all things", is clear indication that He was telling them not of baptizing in water, but immersion in the 'name' of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. A teaching, that produces a permanent change, of who the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is.
What this indicates is taking a person and teaching them about who God the Father is, who God the Son is, and who God the Holy Spirit is. We see that Jesus is speaking of "all nations". Back then, I dare say it was not like today. The nations of the world had no clue who God was, much less the three persons of Him. So to teach them who God is was very crucial in helping them 'become' a disciple. Just like immersing a vegetable in a vinegar solution is crucial in it becoming pickled.
When a person becomes a disciple of someone they need to understand who the person they are following is. This is no different with God. Each of the three persons of God has a distinct role in the life of the follower. Water baptism does not accomplish this. There is ample evidence in today's churches that many who have been just 'baptized' in water have no clue of the fullness of God.
Jim Parker
Member
I'm sorry. That is just totally wrong. 
Paul explains exactly what baptism means at Rom 6:3-4: ... as many of us as were baptized (baptizō) into Christ Jesus were baptized (baptizō) into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism (baptisma) into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The purpose of baptism is to sacramentally unite the believer with Christ in Christ's death and to Christ's resurrection to new (eternal) life. It is the "of water" part of being "born again" (John 3)
We have absolutely no need to go to a pagan Greek poet who lived 200 years before Christ to discover what Jesus and the apostles meant by baptism; there are sufficient examples given in the Bible that specifically refer to baptism as being in water.
Act 1:5 for John truly baptized (baptizō) with water,
Act 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” (baptizō)
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized (baptizō) him.
Act 10:47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized (baptizō) who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
So, when Jesus said at Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing (baptizō) them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, He was talking about baptizing people in water; submerging them and raising them up again.
And that is exactly the kind of baptism to which the records of the early Church refer.
From the Didache (late 1st to early 2nd century)
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
110-165 AD Justin Martyr "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' ...... (Justin Martyr, "First Apology," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 183)
140-230 AD Tertullian "Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins" (Baptism 7:2).
St. Basil on Baptism as being born again of water and spirit
Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 8, St. Basil, "On the Spirit", Ch. XV (My underline)
Hence it follows that the answer to our question why the water was associated to the Spirit is clear: the reason is because in baptism two ends were proposed; on the one hand, the destroying of the body of sin, that it may never bear fruit unto death; on the other hand, our living unto the Spirit, and having our fruit in holiness; the water receiving the body as in a tomb prefigures death, while the Spirit pours in the quickening power, renewing our souls from the deadness of sin into their original life. This then is what it is to be born again of water and of the Spirit, the being made dead is effected in the water, while our life is wrought in us through the Spirit.
Chrysostom on Baptism, Homily XXV
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 14, p. 89 (My underlines)
That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On the occasion, when the Holy Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”
What then is the use of the water? ........ In baptism are fulfilled the pledges of our covenant with God; burial and death, resurrection and life; and these take place all at once. For when we immerse our heads in the water, the old man is buried as in a tomb below, and wholly sunk forever; then as we rise again, the new man rises in its stead. ........ To show that what we say is no conjecture, hear Paul saying, “We are buried with Him by Baptism into death”: and again, “Our old man is crucified with Him”: and again: We have been planted together in the likeness of His death.” (RO vi.4-6) And not only is Baptism called a “cross” but the “cross” is called “Baptism.” “With the Baptism,” saith Christ, “that I am Baptized withal shall ye be baptized” (Mark X.39): and “I have a baptism to be baptized with” (LK xii.50) (which ye know not); for as we easily dip and lift our heads again, so He also easily died and rose again when He willed,...
Teaching is referred to in the early Church as "Catachesis" and the people being taught are called "catachumens." That's where we get the word "catachism".
Where ever you got the "baptism is teaching" deal, see if you can return it and get your money back. :yes :wink
iakov the fool
Nathan
Member
If the water of baptism is what Jesus spoke of in John 3, then the thief on the cross could not enter the kingdom.
I don't think anyone believes that baptizing in water is a pointless act. That's not the point. The point is context. If baptizing in water was absolute and central to the faith and Gospel, then Paul went way out on a limb when declaring he was glad that he had not baptized many people. Even so when he stated;
1 Corinthians 1:14-17 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.). For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
He said he was glad so they would not associate their water baptism with the doctrine of his 'name'. Baptism in water is very much associated with the teaching that accompanied it. For John it was the teaching of repentance, for the apostles it was the teaching of Jesus the Christ.
I don't think anyone believes that baptizing in water is a pointless act. That's not the point. The point is context. If baptizing in water was absolute and central to the faith and Gospel, then Paul went way out on a limb when declaring he was glad that he had not baptized many people. Even so when he stated;
1 Corinthians 1:14-17 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.). For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
He said he was glad so they would not associate their water baptism with the doctrine of his 'name'. Baptism in water is very much associated with the teaching that accompanied it. For John it was the teaching of repentance, for the apostles it was the teaching of Jesus the Christ.
Jim Parker
Member
Jesus doesn't require people to do things that are totally impossible for them to do.
But, if you are currently nailed to a cross somewhere and are about to die, so it is totally impossible for you to be baptiaed then I think Jesus will give you a pass also.
It was Paul who stated exactly what baptism is. (Ro 6)
In that passage, Paul was making it clear that he was sent first and foremost to preach the Gospel.
IN NO WAY can that passage be construed to mean that Paul taught that baptism was not essential.
Paul said that was how a believer was united to Christ in His death and resurrection.
So you changed your mind??
Baptism isn't about being taught?
Good!
iakov the fool
Paul explains exactly what baptism means at Rom 6:3-4: ... as many of us as were baptized (baptizō) into Christ Jesus were baptized (baptizō) into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism (baptisma) into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The purpose of baptism is to sacramentally unite the believer with Christ in Christ's death and to Christ's resurrection to new (eternal) life. It is the "of water" part of being "born again" (John 3)
We have absolutely no need to go to a pagan Greek poet who lived 200 years before Christ to discover what Jesus and the apostles meant by baptism; there are sufficient examples given in the Bible that specifically refer to baptism as being in water.
Act 1:5 for John truly baptized (baptizō) with water,
Act 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” (baptizō)
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized (baptizō) him.
Act 10:47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized (baptizō) who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
So, when Jesus said at Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing (baptizō) them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, He was talking about baptizing people in water; submerging them and raising them up again.
And that is exactly the kind of baptism to which the records of the early Church refer.
From the Didache (late 1st to early 2nd century)
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
110-165 AD Justin Martyr "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' ...... (Justin Martyr, "First Apology," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 183)
140-230 AD Tertullian "Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins" (Baptism 7:2).
St. Basil on Baptism as being born again of water and spirit
Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 8, St. Basil, "On the Spirit", Ch. XV (My underline)
Hence it follows that the answer to our question why the water was associated to the Spirit is clear: the reason is because in baptism two ends were proposed; on the one hand, the destroying of the body of sin, that it may never bear fruit unto death; on the other hand, our living unto the Spirit, and having our fruit in holiness; the water receiving the body as in a tomb prefigures death, while the Spirit pours in the quickening power, renewing our souls from the deadness of sin into their original life. This then is what it is to be born again of water and of the Spirit, the being made dead is effected in the water, while our life is wrought in us through the Spirit.
Chrysostom on Baptism, Homily XXV
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 14, p. 89 (My underlines)
That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On the occasion, when the Holy Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”
What then is the use of the water? ........ In baptism are fulfilled the pledges of our covenant with God; burial and death, resurrection and life; and these take place all at once. For when we immerse our heads in the water, the old man is buried as in a tomb below, and wholly sunk forever; then as we rise again, the new man rises in its stead. ........ To show that what we say is no conjecture, hear Paul saying, “We are buried with Him by Baptism into death”: and again, “Our old man is crucified with Him”: and again: We have been planted together in the likeness of His death.” (RO vi.4-6) And not only is Baptism called a “cross” but the “cross” is called “Baptism.” “With the Baptism,” saith Christ, “that I am Baptized withal shall ye be baptized” (Mark X.39): and “I have a baptism to be baptized with” (LK xii.50) (which ye know not); for as we easily dip and lift our heads again, so He also easily died and rose again when He willed,...
Teaching is referred to in the early Church as "Catachesis" and the people being taught are called "catachumens." That's where we get the word "catachism".
Where ever you got the "baptism is teaching" deal, see if you can return it and get your money back. :yes :wink
iakov the fool
Jim,
An excellent exposition here providing several examples of this baptism being in water and even going down into the water - not necessarily a sprinkling. You also have given some well researched quotes from the early church fathers.
Oz
Jim Parker
Member
Thanks.
I find that I have to go way back to the beginning (first centuries) to get the best commentary on scripture. They were the closest to the apostles.
jim
Jim,
Even with the ECF, one still has to be discerning with their doctrine. Remember Valentinus, Marcion, the Monophysites, and Arius?
Oz
th1b.taylor
Member
Bema is more like a position. The Bema seat is where the judge of the Greek Olympics was seated and as I understand it, from there the awards were given. Not for negative judgement for rather meritorious award and the judgement of the people going to Heaven, we receive Crowns, they are noted as in scripture, for the works we did for no other reason than to build the Kingdom of our LORD.
Nathan
Member
Ok, so some have to do some things, others get 'passes', what's next?
No, I can't change my mind. Baptism is about being taught and it's about representing that understanding by submersion in water.
What the early hard hearted teachers did was turn it into a ritual, much like what they did in the temple. What it used to mean was a signification, by the person being taught, that he understood what he was taught.
Nathan
Member
What we have now is a bunch of wet people walking around without understanding. Very ripe for the picking of false teachers with their false doctrine.Ok, so some have to do some things, others get 'passes', what's next?
No, I can't change my mind. Baptism is about being taught and it's about representing that understanding by submersion in water.
What the early hard hearted teachers did was turn it into a ritual, much like what they did in the temple. What it used to mean was a signification, by the person being taught, that he understood what he was taught.
And how long has this been going on?