What is "church"?

[stovebolts]

Most of what seperates you from those differences is your lack of understanding and your lack of seeking in the right areas.


quote end;


Volt,

That is your opinion. What makes you think you are right area and I am not?

We have completely different understanding of the Bible and practices. We just have to agree to diagree.

good day volt. :angel:

Motive.
I cannot accept the cop out that you use... agree to disagree.... and everything is peachy right?

I saw a bumper sticker this morning. It said...

Liberalism
The avoidance of seeking the truth.
The acceptance of a fantacy.

I do not wish to win an argument with you. I wish to be as honest and caring as I can be. I wish to share with you what I have found in Scripture, and not meerly opinion, yet opinion, is based on theology... that is to say... Theo (god) logos (word)... God's word; or the inticments that this world has to offer.

Tell me, is this world good? or is it evil?
Is God the father greater than God the Son (Jesus)?
Are their different levels of heaven for different people?

Answer my questions, do not ignore me. Defend your faith in truth.

 

[gingercat]

Most of what seperates you from those differences is your lack of understanding and your lack of seeking in the right areas.


quote end;


Volt,

That is your opinion. What makes you think you are right area and I am not?

We have completely different understanding of the Bible and practices. We just have to agree to diagree.

good day volt. :angel:

Motive.
I cannot accept the cop out that you use... agree to disagree.... and everything is peachy right?

I saw a bumper sticker this morning. It said...

Liberalism
The avoidance of seeking the truth.
The acceptance of a fantacy.

I do not wish to win an argument with you. I wish to be as honest and caring as I can be. I wish to share with you what I have found in Scripture, and not meerly opinion, yet opinion, is based on theology... that is to say... Theo (god) logos (word)... God's word; or the inticments that this world has to offer.

Tell me, is this world good? or is it evil?
Is God the father greater than God the Son (Jesus)?
Are their different levels of heaven for different people?

Answer my questions, do not ignore me. Defend your faith in truth.

volt,

I refuse to argue with you. This forum has rules about arguing.

I said my peace, you said yours. What is cop out about? The rest is up to God to decide who is decieving or decieved.

I have been reading the Bible everyday since I became Christian 7 years ago. If anyone thinks that is not long enough, then that is their problem. Again, it is God who makes that decision.

How do I make sure God is supporting me? He has been working in my and my family's life greately. If you haven't read my testimony, I will show it to you, if you wish.

We know by our fruit whether we are of God or not.

Good day Volt :angel:

 

[stovebolts]

gingercat,
What you fail to see, is that I am not arguing.

This thread pertains to the church. Since you have read your bible for the past 7 years, you should be able to give scriptures to support your answers in the below qustions.

Tell me, is this world good? or is it evil?
Is God the father greater than God the Son (Jesus)?
Are their different levels of heaven for different people?

Can you answer these questions as they pertain to the church? Yes or No.

 

[gingercat]

Volt,

You are trying to drag me into the mud fighting. I will not take your bait. I know better.

good day, volt.

Thank you for perticipating in my thread. :angel:


BTW, we can argue about the Scriptures all day and never get to any where, No one will budge from their postition when they are disagreeing.

It is another tactic of show-offs.

 

[stovebolts]

Dear child,

I am truly sad that you feel that way. I am most certainly not trying to pull you into the mud, I am simply trying to pull you out of it.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

You see, we are sinful and self seeking. Would you agree with this? One of the things that seperates us from God is our own self seeking pride... Not simply "the Devil made me do it"... I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings in this thread, but as nicely as I can put it without enabling your error, the church must adhere to sound doctrine... that is to say, good theology. Broken down, that's God's word to the best of our abilities.

You see, when we try to minimize Gods word into our own perspectives so that we can feel better about ourselves, it leaves loop holes for others to take advantage of. Simply saying that the Church is everyone who believes in God lacks wisdom and discernment. Fact is, this kind of teaching will loose souls to the pit, but boy will they feel good on this earth... Through the centuries the church has been battleing heritics (bad theology) since the first century. Your perspective is nothing new.

Now, I kindly ask with the intent that we may both edify each other.

Tell me, is this world good? or is it evil?
Is God the father greater than God the Son (Jesus)?
Are their different levels of heaven for different people?

 

[Imagican]

Most of what seperates you from those differences is your lack of understanding and your lack of seeking in the right areas.


quote end;


Volt,

That is your opinion. What makes you think you are right area and I am not?

We have completely different understanding of the Bible and practices. We just have to agree to diagree.

good day volt. :angel:

Motive.
I cannot accept the cop out that you use... agree to disagree.... and everything is peachy right?

I saw a bumper sticker this morning. It said...

Liberalism
The avoidance of seeking the truth.
The acceptance of a fantacy.

I do not wish to win an argument with you. I wish to be as honest and caring as I can be. I wish to share with you what I have found in Scripture, and not meerly opinion, yet opinion, is based on theology... that is to say... Theo (god) logos (word)... God's word; or the inticments that this world has to offer.

Tell me, is this world good? or is it evil?
Is God the father greater than God the Son (Jesus)?
Are their different levels of heaven for different people?

Answer my questions, do not ignore me. Defend your faith in truth.

I would like to answer your questions Stove.

The world belongs to Satan and most of what's in it.

Yes, the Father is certainly greater than the Son. The Father is/was the CREATOR of the Son and the Son openly admitted that His power came from the Father.

And there will certainly be different levels in heaven. The fact that Christ and ONLY Christ sits or will sit at the right hand of God is perfect proof of this. We are not all that are saved 'called to be Saints'. There will be servents in heaven and there will be leaders in heaven just like here on earth. The difference being that they will ONE AND ALL be leading or serving the righteous cause instead of their own.

And Thess, I and others offer NO MORE OPINION than yourself. Just because you and others believe a certain thing or things gives them no more creedance than any one elses beliefs. The ONLY possible difference is how they line up with the Word.

 

[Imagican]

Now that everyone has had their chance to slam gingercat again. What about the original theme of this thread.

I would like to ask Thess, Solo, Stove and any others that seem to feel it in their interest to refute that which has been offered:

Which church should I attend guys? Which one is it that teaches the truth of God's Word 'without' all the man-made stuff getting in the way? Tell me please, which denomination should I align myself with?

Or, if you refuse to offer what I seek, then admit that they must all be WRONG except one, and that not a one of you is blessed with the knowledge of which it is.

And explain where the love is that one brother would accuse another of being 'lost' simply because they are unable to understand the same? This is NOT love my friends. This is SELF of which there is NO place for in God's kingdom.

I don't know that there was any offense offered in the opening statement of this thread. No personal attacks whatsoever. i can see where some might take offense to ANYTHING that doesn't agree with their beliefs, but that is up to the individual to interpret things thus. Ginger simply made a statement concerning the purpose or reasoning behind the denominations being so insistent that 'their way' is the 'only way'.

Let's be nice guys and at least try to understand that everyone has not arrived at the same place as everyone else. Stove, I give you credit in this regard, but the rest of you guys are not so blameless.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you Imagician. I assumed you would answer in that manner.

By admission of your own testimony, you have associated yourself with the very essense of the same trials that Christianity endured through the 1st century and again, in the third.

In the firs century, it was a form of gnostism that infiltrated the Church.

In the third century, it was Arianism... It is no wonder you despise the Holy Catholic Church of the first few centuries.

Yes, the Father is certainly greater than the Son. The Father is/was the CREATOR of the Son and the Son openly admitted that His power came from the Father.

Then one will deduce this argument to be simply stated, "Since the Son was created out of nothing, he cannot have complete knowledge of a Being, namely the Father, who is uncreated.
According to your logic, If the Son is created, obviously he can not fully know the uncreated father.

As a result, you have to conclude therefore, that God the Father is supreem within his solitude and thus, Jesus becomes a lessor god doing the work of the father. Somehow, it just doesnt sound orthodox to me.

I would be very interested in how you view God the Father's part of creation, being that I believe you are saying that the world is evil. Is this a correct statment?

And there will certainly be different levels in heaven. The fact that Christ and ONLY Christ sits or will sit at the right hand of God is perfect proof of this. We are not all that are saved 'called to be Saints'. There will be servents in heaven and there will be leaders in heaven just like here on earth. The difference being that they will ONE AND ALL be leading or serving the righteous cause instead of their own.

For this to be true, then you would have to look at predestination with a proletariate and a bourgeoisie view of heaven. This would mean that the lower class would have to live by faith alone, while the upper class, the illuminated ones lived by knowledge. Still, the third group who would be spiritually disadvantaged, would they therefore be incapable of any intuitive apprehension of spiritual truths? I believe you would have to answer yes...

 

[stovebolts]

Let's be nice guys and at least try to understand that everyone has not arrived at the same place as everyone else. Stove, I give you credit in this regard, but the rest of you guys are not so blameless.

Imagician,
I love and will defend the Lords Church with my last breath. If I seem angry, then please forgive me, a Sinner and unworthy servant of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.


History has a way of repeating itself and these arguments have already been waged by saints brighter than either of us.

 

[Imagican]

Thank you Imagician. I assumed you would answer in that manner.

By admission of your own testimony, you have associated yourself with the very essense of the same trials that Christianity endured through the 1st century and again, in the third.

In the firs century, it was a form of gnostism that infiltrated the Church.

In the third century, it was Arianism... It is no wonder you despise the Holy Catholic Church of the first few centuries.

I would lean more towards a combination, but Arianism would be the more closely related. And the only thing that placed Arius in the position that he found himself were the traditional paganistic leaders that insisted upon 'trinity'. And yes, this is through my own admission. I do not follow the teachings of ANY man. I only have a cursory knowledge of the history of Arian doctrine. But I certainly agree that Christ was created for that is what the Bible, (Word), states. Who would I be to refute the Word of God.

Yes, the Father is certainly greater than the Son. The Father is/was the CREATOR of the Son and the Son openly admitted that His power came from the Father.

Then one will deduce this argument to be simply stated, "Since the Son was created out of nothing, he cannot have complete knowledge of a Being, namely the Father, who is uncreated.
According to your logic, If the Son is created, obviously he can not fully know the uncreated father.

As a result, you have to conclude therefore, that God the Father is supreem within his solitude and thus, Jesus becomes a lessor god doing the work of the father. Somehow, it just doesnt sound orthodox to me.

Stove, this isn't 'just my understanding', devoid of any Spirtual or scriptural basis. I offer this in understanding 'based' on Spiritual and scriptural content. When Christ was asked about the 'time' of His return, his answer was as plain as could be. 'ONLY the Father Himself knows the answer to this'. I didn't make this up and the inference is clear.

I would be very interested in how you view God the Father's part of creation, being that I believe you are saying that the world is evil. Is this a correct statment?

Any thing either you or i could offer in this regard would out of necessity be nothing more than speculation. What actual information that we have been given is so limited that the best we could do with what has been offered is 'guess'. And this is irrelevant to my or your Salvation. There is no need or perhaps even possibility at this time for us to have a complete understanding of creation.

The world has been given over to the flesh. Satan has the ability to offer whatever material part of it he chooses to influence those that follow him and lead others to him. Why else do you think that 'this' world will be destroyed and re-created? To cleanse it of the influence and ownership of those which have controled it. To wash it clean of all unrighteousness that has been wrought here. To destroy any and all semblance of dominion that Satan has exhibited here.

[quote:56c34]And there will certainly be different levels in heaven. The fact that Christ and ONLY Christ sits or will sit at the right hand of God is perfect proof of this. We are not all that are saved 'called to be Saints'. There will be servents in heaven and there will be leaders in heaven just like here on earth. The difference being that they will ONE AND ALL be leading or serving the righteous cause instead of their own.

For this to be true, then you would have to look at predestination with a proletariate and a bourgeoisie view of heaven. This would mean that the lower class would have to live by faith alone, while the upper class, the illuminated ones lived by knowledge. Still, the third group who would be spiritually disadvantaged, would they therefore be incapable of any intuitive apprehension of spiritual truths? I believe you would have to answer yes...[/quote:56c34]

NO, I don't have to speculate anything other than what I stated. I don't the exact way in which heaven will be situated as far as each and every members place. I do know, however, that we were told to run the race like we mean to WIN it. In a race, there can be ONLY ONE WINNER. All the rest of the contestants will have their 'place', but THE place of winner is reserved for ONLY ONE. Even in Revelation we have much discription that there are levels of leadership. There is quite a bit of discription in Johns vision of different places for different members.

 

[Imagican]

And let me offer this guys: The Bible is ONLY the beginning of understanding. We have at our disposal tons and tons of other information that is capable of bringing about a further and deeper understanding of the details that the Bible NEVER even expounds upon.

Not only do we have writtings and teachings of the Saints, but there is much to be found in the understanding of Satan and his demons also. As one grows in their relationship to the Father, it is certainly possible and exists that there will be and are those that will gain a much much deeper understanding of that which they can handle. Just because there is nothing in the Bible to refute or validify much of this information or understanding is by NO means any indication that it doesn't exist. Many will refute it for their lack of understanding but neither does this validate the refutation. It only proves their lack of this understanding or ability to handle it.

 

[Packrat]

I didn't think that it was right or wrong to go to a church building. I was, in effect, learning more on my own just staying by myself a few sundays. Of course, going to church isn't just for learning. It's for a number of things. It may help you grow in your relationship with God or it may help revive your spirit. You can also get a number of view points from people on a subject the preacher is preaching about: 1. his own & 2. anyone else's if you go with a group (family, friends, or acquaintances).

The Bible does not say that we should go to church. It does say, however, that we should not forsake the meeting together of fellow believers. This still does not mean going to a church building, but it may even mean meeting together to worship in your own home. This isn't tradition; it's the fundamentals.

If people don't have members of family or friends who are fellow believers that they may meet together with on the sabbath, then they should probably go to church on sunday or else go to a Bible Study session on one of the week days. It's fundamentally the same thing. Just make sure you get together from time to time with fellow believers. I, personally, don't know how much time you should spend in church rather than with your own nose in the Bible at home. If you need your faith maintained, then your best bet is usually to air your concerns with fellow believers and have them answer you a bit. It's worked for me. 8-) And this website is one way to do this.

So, gingercat, if you're meeting together with fellow believers often enough (however long that may be - use discretion), then I think everything's alright. You don't need to go to some church building, but you should adhere to the fundamental principle of the matter.

When you are obeying God, I think it is all about the fundamentals. You could look at the Ten Commandments as a template, but if you look at the real lesson and obey it (love God with your whole and your neighbor as yourself), then everything's pretty much going to turn out fine I assume.

 

[stovebolts]

Imagican,

I would lean more towards a combination, but Arianism would be the more closely related. And the only thing that placed Arius in the position that he found himself were the traditional paganistic leaders that insisted upon 'trinity'. And yes, this is through my own admission. I do not follow the teachings of ANY man. I only have a cursory knowledge of the history of Arian doctrine. But I certainly agree that Christ was created for that is what the Bible, (Word), states. Who would I be to refute the Word of God.

Agian, by your own testimony, you really need to do some serious research on your beliefs and where they came from, for many do come from men.., or should I say man? Simply put, a cursory knowledge will not work in this case, especially when that knowledge is grossly skewed and distorted against many good historians. Shall I post references? How about Bruce L. Shelley? Do you believe he is a qualified historian or would you like me to start pasting link after link after link for you to read? Or would you even read them?

Now, about these paganistic leaders... I think you have it backwards... The Saints were keeping the pagen, gnostic teachings out, like Montanus and Arius hence the Apostles Creed came about as a profession before baptism (to keep gnostic teaching out) and with the advent of arius, the Nicene Creed to keep the standard greek's way of thinking out. Do I think the church made some bad choices in this time frame? Sure I do, but I understand why and what they were up against.

I do not blame or put you down for being led astray. I've been led astray many times as well. That being the case, do some non biased research into History and you will see how history has effected your current belief.

A book I would recomend is one that I am currently reading. It's called,
Church History in plain english, by Bruce L. Shelley. You can get it for 7.50.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Packrat,
I really enjoy the spirit in which you post.

The Bible does not say that we should go to church. It does say, however, that we should not forsake the meeting together of fellow believers. This still does not mean going to a church building, but it may even mean meeting together to worship in your own home. This isn't tradition; it's the fundamentals.

Just to add a tad if I might. I have posted two verses that we can use as examples.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the next day; and continued his speech until midnight.

We are shown by example when we should meet and warned not to forsake fellowship.

When you are obeying God, I think it is all about the fundamentals. You could look at the Ten Commandments as a template, but if you look at the real lesson and obey it (love God with your whole and your neighbor as yourself), then everything's pretty much going to turn out fine I assume.

I think that's a very large step in the right direction. But to obey God, is to know God. And we can only know God if we know both His Living Word and His written word along with prayer.

Thank you for such a fine post.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I decided not to attend organized church because I believe I am much useful for the Lord without attending it. The Lord is supporting my decision. How do I know it? My family and I have been powerful for the Lord for His purpose.

I have been supporting one of the organization that helps persecuted Christians. (Voice of the Martyers). I also have my own ministry of evangelizing. Every once in a while I go to Okinawa for evangelism. I also encourage young and new believer to be obedient to His teaching as much as I can besides evangelizing to non-believers.

Thats awesome!

 

[gingercat]

Soma sight and imagican,

The organized churches band together to keep their decietfulness of christianity by theologies and gimmicks, tactics and etc... We house Churched Christians should band together so God will be even more powerful. We have to remember that they have million ways to ostracize us super minorities. If God is with us who can be aginst us! When God is with us we are the majority. :wink:

Narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it. :angel:

 

[stovebolts]

Tell me gingercat... Exactly What is the narrow road?

 

[stovebolts]

This is going to look ugly... I'm speaking of the format.

Thank you Imagician. I assumed you would answer in that manner.

By admission of your own testimony, you have associated yourself with the very essense of the same trials that Christianity endured through the 1st century and again, in the third.

In the firs century, it was a form of gnostism that infiltrated the Church.

In the third century, it was Arianism... It is no wonder you despise the Holy Catholic Church of the first few centuries.

I would lean more towards a combination, but Arianism would be the more closely related. And the only thing that placed Arius in the position that he found himself were the traditional paganistic leaders that insisted upon 'trinity'. And yes, this is through my own admission. I do not follow the teachings of ANY man. I only have a cursory knowledge of the history of Arian doctrine. But I certainly agree that Christ was created for that is what the Bible, (Word), states. Who would I be to refute the Word of God.


I have heard you cry that you felt like you were being persecuted... That you don't like being called a heretic. Arius was deemed a heretic, are you now wiser and more knowledgable than he?
My point is this, if you dye your hair purple and run around the mall naked, somebody is going to call you on it. In the same manner, you should expect to be called a heretic and those who follow. BTW, a heritic is simply one who has a bad theology. Repentance is for anyone.

Yes, the Father is certainly greater than the Son. The Father is/was the CREATOR of the Son and the Son openly admitted that His power came from the Father.

Then one will deduce this argument to be simply stated, "Since the Son was created out of nothing, he cannot have complete knowledge of a Being, namely the Father, who is uncreated.
According to your logic, If the Son is created, obviously he can not fully know the uncreated father.

As a result, you have to conclude therefore, that God the Father is supreem within his solitude and thus, Jesus becomes a lessor god doing the work of the father. Somehow, it just doesnt sound orthodox to me.

Stove, this isn't 'just my understanding', devoid of any Spirtual or scriptural basis. I offer this in understanding 'based' on Spiritual and scriptural content. When Christ was asked about the 'time' of His return, his answer was as plain as could be. 'ONLY the Father Himself knows the answer to this'. I didn't make this up and the inference is clear.

Do you fully understand what time is?

There was no time, therefore, when thou hadst not made anything, because thou hadst made time itself. And there are no times that are coeternal with thee, because thou dost abide forever; but if times should abide, they would not be times.

For what is time? Who can easily and briefly explain it? Who can even comprehend it in thought or put the answer into words? Yet is it not true that in conversation we refer to nothing more familiarly or knowingly than time? And surely we understand it when we speak of it; we understand it also when we hear another speak of it.

What, then, is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks me, I do not know. Yet I say with confidence that I know that if nothing passed away, there would be no past time; and if nothing were still coming, there would be no future time; and if there were nothing at all, there would be no present time.

But, then, how is it that there are the two times, past and future, when even the past is now no longer and the future is now not yet? But if the present were always present, and did not pass into past time, it obviously would not be time but eternity. If, then, time present--if it be time--comes into existence only because it passes into time past, how can we say that even this is, since the cause of its being is that it will cease to be? Thus, can we not truly say that time is only as it tends toward nonbeing?

More to come if I am allowed the time today

 

[gingercat]

Tell me gingercat... Exactly What is the narrow road?

Faithfulness, fruitfulness, godlyness, holyness, righteouseness, kindness, gentleness, self control, loyalty to the Lord; in a nutshell, striving to follow everhthing what Jesus and His disciples are teaching.

I know your tactics and I will not be used by you to get into your way of understanding and practicing and reasoning, volt. :angel:

 

[stovebolts]

Good morning sweetheart,

I kinda like my new nickname. :wink:

Volt
1. A circular movement executed by a horse in manège. :D
2. A sudden movement made in avoiding a thrust in fencing. :-D

BTW,
You have done an excellent job describing the fruits of one laboring in Christ, but you still havn't answerd Exactly What is the narrow road?

Your close though?

Hint: it has something to do with the Church.