What is the general consensus on the rapture here?

[Free]

They get a witness in their spirit that something is wrong. It's in essence the same principle behind, "My sheep know My voice, and another they will not follow."

So, it is based on an inner feeling rather than on what Scripture says? That puts one’s personal experience above Scripture.

And, again, how do they know it is worth leaving a church over?

 

[Hidden In Him]

So, it is based on an inner feeling rather than on what Scripture says? That puts one’s personal experience above Scripture.

No. It is trusting in the voice of the Holy Spirit in the immediate when you are still uncertain what the scripture teaches, and then getting alone with God and letting Him confirm to you what He was saying later, as opposed to simply ignoring the leading of the Holy Spirit and letting someone else brainwash you, bypassing both your own brain and what the Holy Spirit was saying to you, to turn you potentially into a cult victim with no mind of your own, and certainly no ability to hear God for yourself.

And, again, how do they know it is worth leaving a church over?

Because of His leading.

 

[Hopeful]

I have grown up around churches teaching either supporting a pre tribulation rapture, or if they don’t, they say nothing at all about it. Recently I attended what seemed to be a solid Bible believing church in every aspect. But then I asked the pastor if he believed in a literal 1000 yr reign with Christ. And he didn’t. He didn’t think the rapture was biblical. I was taken back. I was afraid to ask questions because I didn’t want him to sway me from what I believed. We decided to find a different church. We really miss the general teaching but I don’t know what to think about end time stuff anymore. It kind of deflated our balloon that says pre trib. I have no idea what to believe. I can understand there could be parallels that I am missing. I don’t want to miss out on the Kingdom of God at work now. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. There must be a point when our bodies are changed.

I am not a pre-trib'er.
Paul says the dead in Christ will be raised first...to meet the Lord in the air..."For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:16-17)
Martha told Jesus that Lazarus will be raised on the last day..."Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." (John 11:23-24)

If that is the last day, it seems unlikely that there would be three and a half more years for a tribulation which some allege Christians will miss.

 

[Free]

Where is the eschatological symbolism?

There is some symbolism but it isn’t all eschatological either. Some of it was near to happening, some much further out. But I still don’t see what this has to do with the discussion.

 

[for_his_glory]

Right after the seven vial judgments have been poured out on those who took the mark of the beast mystery Babylon will have been revealed and destroyed with fire as the kings of all the nations who took part in her will flee and bewail her destruction as well as those merchants who were made rich by her. Heaven and all those souls that have gone back to God while their physical bodies returned to the ground/grave will then rejoice as their blood will be avenged by God as the great city Babylon that has been revealed will be destroyed and the preaching of the Gospel will end as the door of Salvation will be closed forever as in Jesus was life and life was the light of men, but the darkness could not comprehend it, Rev 16-18, John 1:1-5.

Rev 19:1-6 begins with all those in heaven as they are rejoicing as God will have judged the great whore and destroys her in the end of days as even now she is corrupting the earth an causes much blood shed as she persecutes the saints of God to death. Rev 19:7-10 comes the timing of the marriage of the Lamb as the whore of Babylon and her city will have been destroyed and all those who are Christ asleep in the grave and alive at His coming have prepared themselves for the marriage of the Lamb as they being His Bride will sup with Him for eternity. Rev 19:7-9 mentions nothing of us being caught up to Him yet, but to us it will be granted that we being the Bride should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

The events that follow after heaven rejoices starting with Rev 19:11-21 is that Jesus returns with his army of warring angels (not the saints of God) from heaven that follow Him, as Jesus will then destroy the beast and fasle prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then will strike dead the remnant by the words of His mouth as the remnant are those who the beast uses to rule evil over the nations. Christ then sends an angel to bind Satan for a 1000 years so he can no longer deceive the nations (people) anymore until he is set loose for a time. A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

Rev 20:4-15 during this time of Satan being bound comes the resurrection of all, (as all means saints and those who are not of faith in God), who are asleep in the ground will hear the voice of Christ calling them to come forth as some will be resurrected to eternal life with the Father and others to damnation, John 5:28,29, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 1:1-10; 4:13-18. When we are given our new glorified bodies Jesus will gather us to Him like a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings for protection, Matthew 23:34-39. Satan will be loosed for a short time to go out and deceive the nations by gathering all those who are his own and then sends them to attack the camp of the saints, but God sends fire down from heaven to devour them. Satan is then cast into the lake of fire followed by those who stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and as their names are not written in the book of life will then be cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more.

Many teach that there are two resurrections, but that is not what scriptures says.There is only one resurrection, but two judgments of those who sleep in the grave, John 5:28,29. Everyone was created by God, but not all are found faithful to Him as many refused to Hear the word of God and turned away from Him and will continue to do so until the coming of the Lord. Then there are those like that of the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25:14-30 and the judgment of the Gentiles in Matthew 25:31-46. We know Jesus comes with rewards as the rewards are different for each one.

Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4 were only visions John was being shown as it is only the souls that are reigning with Christ in heaven as John 3:13 says no one other than Christ has ever ascended up to heaven. The only thing that goes back to God when this physical body dies and goes back to the dust of the ground is the very breath/spirit that made us a living soul as the soul can never die, Genesis 22:7; Ecc 12:7; Matthew 10:28. Those souls John was being shown are reigning with Christ in Heaven for a time until all of God's enemies become His footstool as Christ who sits at the right hand of the Father reigns with Him in heaven until the end comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and establishes His kingdom here on earth and takes His seat on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem, Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:33-37; Hebrews 10:12,13.

Many look for a physical kingdom here on earth and read into Rev 20 that Christ will reign for a thousand years here on earth with His saints, but truth is that Christ has always reigned with God from before the foundation of the world and for all eternity, John 1:1-4; 1Peter 1:18-23. It was Satan's pride that caused the nations to sin against God as Satan ruled evil over the nations, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, but yet the nations have always been Gods kingdoms as in the end of days He will separate the sheep from the goats/wheat from the tares. In Rev 11:14-19 the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever. What this means is that Gods longsuffering and patience will come to an end, 2 Peter 3:9, 10, as His great wrath is poured out on the earth. All His enemies will become His footstool, then will He send Christ and His army of angels to destroy all that is an abomination to Him casting it all into the lake of fire. Jesus will at that time establish His kingdom here on earth as God makes new the heaven and earth ushering down the new Jerusalem as we will then be with the Lord forever, Luke 19:12; 1Corinthians 15:20-26; 2 Peter 3:10; Colossians 1:13; John 18:36, Rev 21:1.

Everything from Rev 11:14 that starts the third woe with the seventh trumpet sounding and continues through Rev 20:15 comes quickly in Gods timing, even though man tries to put a certain timing to the beginning and end of Gods great wrath. We inherit the kingdoms of God from the day of our Spiritual rebirth, John 3:3-6; Romans 10:9,10 as they have been prepared for us from the foundation of the world, Matthew 25:34. We reign with Christ here on this present earth as Gods grace gives us all power and authority through that of Christ Jesus for it is not our power and authority, but is Christ's that works in us and through us as a faithful servant as He is in us and we in Him.

 

[Norman]

I feel that if I really wanted to know the details on the rapture, I'd seek God until He told me. I guess I don't really want to know.
I feel that if He really wanted me to know, He'd tell me. He hasn't, so I guess He doesn't.
I've heard so many point of views, each one thinking they've got it right, and have witnessed so much arguing over it that I try not to think about it too much, as I find it discouraging.
What difference does it make, anyway? I find that if I pay too much attention to ecclesiastical matters, I get frustrated.
Besides, trying to understand what it means to be Jewish is enough for me. But that's just me.

 

[Randy]

You did not deal with the biblical material to prove your point. I won't believe your point because of this lack of evidence.

Oz

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

Vs 17 AFTER THAT....

The parable with the wheat and weeds shows both growing up together until the harvest time starting with the weeds. The reason given for not pulling up the "weeds" earlier is that it may harm the wheat. Nothing was mentioned about harvesting the wheat earlier. If the wheat was harvested earlier then the weeds could be destroyed at that time without harming the wheat.

 

[JLB]

I am continually amazed at the obsession over this subject when as Christians the one solid biblical fact we all have no choice but to accept as absolute truth from God is that we are conduct ourselves as if each new day we are granted is a supreme gift from God, and that each new day may also very well be our last.
For me it does not even add up to a distraction.

Many people will face the tribulation unprepared and unwilling to lay down their life because they didn’t heed the warnings about His Coming from Jesus Christ.

• For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:38-44

• Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The Lord gave us the teachings about His Coming for a reason, and as all of the teachings of Christ are important to those who call upon His name.



Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

• the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I feel that if I really wanted to know the details on the rapture, I'd seek God until He told me. I guess I don't really want to know.
I feel that if He really wanted me to know, He'd tell me. He hasn't, so I guess He doesn't.
I've heard so many point of views, each one thinking they've got it right, and have witnessed so much arguing over it that I try not to think about it too much, as I find it discouraging.
What difference does it make, anyway? I find that if I pay too much attention to ecclesiastical matters, I get frustrated.
Besides, trying to understand what it means to be Jewish is enough for me. But that's just me.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection and rapture happen at His coming.






JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Many people will face the tribulation unprepared and unwilling to lay down their life because they didn’t heed the warnings about His Coming from Jesus Christ.

• For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

If you go forward in each new day believing what Jesus said , that this day may very well be your last , and conduct yuorself accordingly, how are you then " unprepared " ?

 

[Edward]

If that is the last day, it seems unlikely that there would be three and a half more years for a tribulation which some allege Christians will miss.

My understanding is that the Lord's love for His people knows no bounds and this is so. The teaching says that the Lord comes for His Bride, which we know to be the unblemished diligent souls who have purified themselves and made their garments white. What could be termed loosely but accurately, the cream of the crop, right?

So, His Love is for all and favor for His Bride. So how could anyone think that the Lord would let His Bride go through the worst of the tribulation?

I guess that makes me mid trib. If we look to the scriptures we can see that there were 7 raptures (I think*) so far. Elijah, Phillip, Jesus, Paul and a couple others. The OT is types and shadows of things to come. God, He who tells the end from the beginning. I notice that every time before God sent judgement, someone got raptured. So more raptures could be in earths future.

But this wonderfully Loving and compassionate God would not do to His Bride...I'm going to let you get the crap beat out of you and then we'll go to dinner? (Marriage supper of the Lamb).

No, I can't accept that, that is the Lord's heart for His Bride. There will be a rapture of His Bride only, and many christians will be left behind not being the Bride, and while the Marriage supper is going on in Heaven is when the great tribulation comes to Israel and the earth.

It's a long deep study. But worth it.

 

[JLB]

If you go forward in each new day believing what Jesus said , that this day may very well be your last , and conduct yuorself accordingly, how are you then " unprepared " ?

Did Jesus tell us to do that, or did He teach us about His signs and to not be deceived?


I like what you are saying, and each of us should live our lives as it is our last day, however there is more, and we are taught from the scriptures.


We don't ignore what the scriptures say, and live our lives in that ignorance.




JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

If you go forward in each new day believing what Jesus said , that this day may very well be your last , and conduct yuorself accordingly, how are you then " unprepared " ?

Did Jesus tell us to do that, or did He teach us about His signs and to not be deceived?

JLB

The answer is yes .
We are to be wise as serpents & take no thought or worry about tomorrow, for this very day you may breathe your last.

Mat 6:34
"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Just out of curiosity what result do you most often get in convincing someone to believe in Christ when your main selling point is facing the trials of great tribulation ?
Especially given the epidemic percentages of people with no hope these days that are contemplating either quick suicide, or a slow death by drugs already ?
Do you really think someone without hope to the point they are contemplating jumping off a bridge or hanging themselves in a matter of hours, is impressed by offering them an alternate method of death in the tribulation ?
I do not get the point ?

 

[Hopeful]

My understanding is that the Lord's love for His people knows no bounds and this is so. The teaching says that the Lord comes for His Bride, which we know to be the unblemished diligent souls who have purified themselves and made their garments white. What could be termed loosely but accurately, the cream of the crop, right?

So, His Love is for all and favor for His Bride. So how could anyone think that the Lord would let His Bride go through the worst of the tribulation?

I guess that makes me mid trib. If we look to the scriptures we can see that there were 7 raptures (I think*) so far. Elijah, Phillip, Jesus, Paul and a couple others. The OT is types and shadows of things to come. God, He who tells the end from the beginning. I notice that every time before God sent judgement, someone got raptured. So more raptures could be in earths future.

But this wonderfully Loving and compassionate God would not do to His Bride...I'm going to let you get the crap beat out of you and then we'll go to dinner? (Marriage supper of the Lamb).

No, I can't accept that, that is the Lord's heart for His Bride. There will be a rapture of His Bride only, and many christians will be left behind not being the Bride, and while the Marriage supper is going on in Heaven is when the great tribulation comes to Israel and the earth.

It's a long deep study. But worth it.

Do you feel you can work the "souls" under the altar of Rev 6:9-11?
It is written..."And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The bride will suffer for "her" faith until the last day.

 

[Hopeful]

Just out of curiosity what result do you most often get in convincing someone to believe in Christ when your main selling point is facing the trials of great tribulation ?
Especially given the epidemic percentages of people with no hope these days that are contemplating either quick suicide, or a slow death by drugs already ?
Do you really think someone without hope to the point they are contemplating jumping off a bridge or hanging themselves in a matter of hours, is impressed by offering them an alternate method of death in the tribulation ?
I do not get the point ?

If your faith isn't worth dying for, it isn't worth living for either.

 

[Consecrated Life]

If your faith isn't worth dying for, it isn't worth living for either.

Hopeful:
How constructive have you personally found this message to be in leading people who are facing life without hope & already contemplating dying by their own hand to Christ, and receiving His precious gift of Life everlasting & all fear, weakness & dismay disappeared ?
" For the Word of God is living, and active " ( Hebrews 4:12 )

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful:
How constructive have you personally found this message to be in leading people who are facing life without hope & already contemplating dying by their own hand to Christ, and receiving His precious gift of Life everlasting & all fear, weakness & dismay disappeared ?
" For the Word of God is living, and active " ( Hebrews 4:12 )

I have never used the "end of the world" position when reasoning with those who are seeking the Lord.
I use a position of love for God, who supplies all our needs, protection, and hope.
He supplies the grace to remain free from hurting ourselves and others with a new divine nature, among other things.

Fear, weakness, and dismay are all parts of life.
God can and will give us the strength, to handle all that can be brought against us.
Jesus "feared" in the garden of Gethsemane, and we see what kind of strength He was given.
Look at all that the apostle Paul endured.
Don't you think he was, at times, dismayed?
But he trusted God for deliverance, not only in this world, but in the one to come.
That strength, trust, and hope is available to all who will submit to Him.

 

[JLB]

Just out of curiosity what result do you most often get in convincing someone to believe in Christ when your main selling point is facing the trials of great tribulation ?

I don't bring up the rapture when witnessing for Christ.

My main point is Jesus Christ, and the salvation He paid for on the cross.


What good would it do a person to live their life for Christ then take the mark of the beast because no one taught what would happen if they did?

 

[Consecrated Life]

I don't bring up the rapture when witnessing for Christ.

My main point is Jesus Christ, and the salvation He paid for on the cross.


What good would it do a person to live their life for Christ then take the mark of the beast because no one taught what would happen if they did?

You don't believe His immediate presence & mighty power in the heart of the believer keeps His children unfailing in this one specific matter?
Certainly you don't believe Jesus would go back on His Word and restrain the Holy Ghost , which He has promised in that moment to deliver, and allow them to perish ?
That would mean Jesus is a Liar .

Mar 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

[JLB]

You don't believe His immediate presence & mighty power in the heart of the believer keeps His children unfailing in this one specific matter?

I believe His grace is sufficient for us.


I also believe we must give heed to His doctrine, His teachings, His sayings, His word, His Instructions; to obey it, in order for us to be saved.



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16



Here are the instructions given to those living in that time, when the mark of the beast will be required.



Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12







JLB