What is the general consensus on the rapture here?

[Consecrated Life]

I believe His grace is sufficient for us.


I also believe we must give heed to His doctrine, His teachings, His sayings, His word, His Instructions; to obey it, in order for us to be saved.



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16



Here are the instructions given to those living in that time, when the mark of the beast will be required.



JLB

His, " teaching", is to, "take no thought Beforehand ", or " premeditate ", of the very moment you are delivered up be killed .
That is the " Teaching" for that specific moment of being delivered up for death.
This teaching of Jesus is the exact opposite of the studying up and pre-planning of what you will do at that moment that you suggest.
The only instance in the scripture where Jesus declares that the Holy Spirit will literally take full control of your faculties of thought and speech at that moment you are delivered up.
Nowhere else in scripture will you find Jesus declaring that you will literally have the Holy Spirit take complete control of every thought you think and every word you speak .
Do understand what an amazing prophecy from Jesus concerning this is ?
It occurs nowhere else in scripture.

Mark 13:11 is Jesus giving His instruction & teaching for that specific moment
Clearly :

Mar 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."

Kind Regards, Consecrated Life






































































































































































































Jesus is giving His teaching for the very moment

 

[JLB]

His, " teaching", is to, "take no thought Beforehand ", or " premeditate ", of the very moment you are delivered up be killed .
That is the " Teaching" for that specific moment of being delivered up for death.
This teaching of Jesus is the exact opposite of the studying up and pre-planning of what you will do at that moment that you suggest.
The only instance in the scripture where Jesus declares that the Holy Spirit will literally take full control of your faculties of thought and speech at that moment you are delivered up.
Nowhere else in scripture will you find Jesus declaring that you will literally have the Holy Spirit take complete control of every thought you think and every word you speak .
Do understand what an amazing prophecy from Jesus concerning this is ?
It occurs nowhere else in scripture.

Mark 13:11 is Jesus giving His instruction & teaching for that specific moment
Clearly :

Mar 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."

Kind Regards, Consecrated Life






































































































































































































Jesus is giving His teaching for the very moment

Jesus was giving His instructions to His Apostles as He sent them out with His authority to preach His Gospel, after He spent three and a half years pouring His life into them.


Context is key.




JLB

 

[Randy]

Did Jesus tell us to do that, or did He teach us about His signs and to not be deceived?


I like what you are saying, and each of us should live our lives as it is our last day, however there is more, and we are taught from the scriptures.


We don't ignore what the scriptures say, and live our lives in that ignorance.




JLB

Jesus - MY Sheep hear my voice. Those born of God can not be deceived away.
Those who take joy in the deaths of the two witnesses in REV 11 will be deceived away.
That judgment is to those who refuse to repent and love to do evil.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[Who Me]

. Recently I attended what seemed to be a solid Bible believing church in every aspect. But then I asked the pastor if he believed in a literal 1000 yr reign with Christ. And he didn’t. He didn’t think the rapture was biblical. I was taken back. I was afraid to ask questions because I didn’t want him to sway me from what I believed. We decided to find a different church. We really miss the general teaching

My advice would be to go back and talk privately with him about his views, your views and how relevent those views are.

There are many areas of church/christian life where one does not have to agree with every item.
You believe in a literal rapture, this pastor doesn't. How does that stop you worshipping and serving as part of that church.

 

[Free]

My advice would be to go back and talk privately with him about his views, your views and how relevent those views are.

There are many areas of church/christian life where one does not have to agree with every item.
You believe in a literal rapture, this pastor doesn't. How does that stop you worshipping and serving as part of that church.

Exactly. One’s personal interpretation of something that isn’t a core or salvific issue is not at all something to quit a church over. I think the idea of church as family is largely lost on many Christians these days.

 

[Hopeful]

My advice would be to go back and talk privately with him about his views, your views and how relevent those views are.

There are many areas of church/christian life where one does not have to agree with every item.
You believe in a literal rapture, this pastor doesn't. How does that stop you worshipping and serving as part of that church.

"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (1 Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9)
How off base does a place have to be before you see it for what it is?

 

[Free]

"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (1 Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9)
How off base does a place have to be before you see it for what it is?

1 Cor 5:6 is about a specific sin that the Corinthian church tolerated that was not even tolerated among unbelievers. Gal 5:9 is in regards to a salvific issue--that of turning from grace to works of the Law.

We cannot apply those verses to personal interpretations of Scripture that have no bearing on salvation or core doctrine, where there is not only leeway but legitimate scholarly disagreement on what is precisely meant.

 

[JLB]

Those born of God can not be deceived away.

Chapter and verse that says those born of God can not be deceived away?

 

[for_his_glory]

Just out of curiosity what result do you most often get in convincing someone to believe in Christ when your main selling point is facing the trials of great tribulation ?

There is no selling point in the warnings Jesus gave us about end time events, but that we teach what He has already taught us in preparing ourselves for those things that must come first before His return. Why is it so important others ask, so we are not being deceived by the lying signs and wonders of the wicked one when the son of perdition takes his seat deceiving the nations into taking the mark of this beast who can deceive the very elect of God if possible.

 

[for_his_glory]

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem, 2Thessalonians 2:1-5, Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14. At this time many Christians will be taken captive that did not heed the warning to flee and if they will not denounce Christ and bow down and take the mark of this beast, who falsely claims peace and safety to all who takes its mark, they will die a martyr's death.

God's protection is absolute to those who are His own and escape into the wilderness as they trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the 3 1/2 years events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be a large asteroid as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus was giving His instructions to His Apostles as He sent them out with His authority to preach His Gospel, after He spent three and a half years pouring His life into them.


Context is key.




JLB

Yes, and the context of the 13th chapter of Mark includes Jesus's statement that this time will be the worst the whole world will ever see.
It will never be any worse on the earth than at that moment.
How is it possible then that the worse time the whole world will ever see has already happened when the apostles walked the earth as you suggest ?

" For in those days shall be affliction such as was not from the beginning of the creation,
which God created unto this time, neither shall be."
( Mark 13:19 )

 

[Randy]

Chapter and verse that says those born of God can not be deceived away?

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.

 

[Hopeful]

You don't believe His immediate presence & mighty power in the heart of the believer keeps His children unfailing in this one specific matter?
Certainly you don't believe Jesus would go back on His Word and restrain the Holy Ghost , which He has promised in that moment to deliver, and allow them to perish ?
That would mean Jesus is a Liar .

Mar 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

May I ask where you heard that the Holy Ghost was given "at the moment you believed"?

 

[Hopeful]

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.

Those who are "deceives away" are apparently not His sheep.

 

[Consecrated Life]

May I ask where you heard that the Holy Ghost was given "at the moment you believed"?

You could not be born a son of God without the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.
And you could not be born a son of God without believing
God's Sonship by grace is not like scientology, you are not born a son of God in multiple ascending spiritual levels.

1Jo 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God...

 

[Hopeful]

You could not be born a son of God without the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.
And you could not be born a son of God without believing
God's Sonship by grace is not like scientology, you are not born a son of God in multiple ascending spiritual levels.

Please remember that God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
So sinners can't ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter spells out the order of things done at conversion in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Repent--Turn from sin...making you an son-sinner.
Get baptized--Get washed of your past sins in the name of Jesus Christ...making your vessel sanctified and ready for the inhabitation of the Holy Spirit.
Then you can ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1Jo 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God...

Amen to that.
Non-believers won't repent of sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or be able to ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Free]

Peter spells out the order of things done at conversion in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Repent--Turn from sin...making you an son-sinner.
Get baptized--Get washed of your past sins in the name of Jesus Christ...making your vessel sanctified and ready for the inhabitation of the Holy Spirit.
Then you can ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Interesting that you say "Peter spells out the order of things done at conversion" but then go on to add something that isn't in the text.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ESV)

Peter does not say that after conversion a person will then be "ready for the inhabitation of the Holy Spirit" or that then a person "can ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost". He clearly says that upon conversion, a person "will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." It's something that happens at conversion without asking.

 

[Hopeful]

Interesting that you say "Peter spells out the order of things done at conversion" but then go on to add something that isn't in the text.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ESV)

Peter does not say that after conversion a person will then be "ready for the inhabitation of the Holy Spirit" or that then a person "can ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost". He clearly says that upon conversion, a person "will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." It's something that happens at conversion without asking.

Jesus said we could "ask for the Holy Spirit, in Luke 11:13..."If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
Conversion is a bundle affair, including more that just one facet.

 

[Free]

Jesus said we could "ask for the Holy Spirit, in Luke 11:13..."If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
Conversion is a bundle affair, including more that just one facet.

And yet that is not what you said Paul said. Also, be careful in applying something Jesus said pre-resurrection to post-Pentecost believers because what you are now suggesting is that evil people can receive the Holy Spirit by asking the Father. Not only is it problematic to say that evil people can receive the Holy Spirit, you just stated above that sinners can't even ask:

"Please remember that God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
So sinners can't ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost"

It is much better to consider Jesus' words to his disciples in John:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)

Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (ESV)

Jesus says that he will give the Holy Spirit, who, at that time, was with them but would soon be in them. This was mentioned earlier as well:

Joh 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (ESV)

The Holy Spirit would not be given prior to Jesus' resurrection and it is those who believe in Jesus that were to receive the Spirit. So, we see this happen at Pentecost, where Peter made his speech that you quoted from, where he does not say one has to ask to receive the Holy Spirit but rather that a person would just receive him. That is a consistent message.

 

[Hopeful]

And yet that is not what you said Paul said. Also, be careful in applying something Jesus said pre-resurrection to post-Pentecost believers because what you are now suggesting is that evil people can receive the Holy Spirit by asking the Father. Not only is it problematic to say that evil people can receive the Holy Spirit, you just stated above that sinners can't even ask:

Why would our ability to ask for the Holy Spirit disappear after Jesus' resurrection?
"Evil people" are not heard by God. (John 9:31)

"Please remember that God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
So sinners can't ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost"
It is much better to consider Jesus' words to his disciples in John:
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)

Jesus won't ask His Father to send the Comforter to sinners.
Repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is necessary first.

Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (ESV)
Jesus says that he will give the Holy Spirit, who, at that time, was with them but would soon be in them. This was mentioned earlier as well:

The Holy Spirit would not be given prior to Jesus' resurrection and it is those who believe in Jesus that were to receive the Spirit.

How do we "get in Jesus"?
We are baptized into Jesus. (Rom 6:3-7)

So, we see this happen at Pentecost, where Peter made his speech that you quoted from, where he does not say one has to ask to receive the Holy Spirit but rather that a person would just receive him. That is a consistent message.

He didn't say it would happen instantly either.
Jesus said it earlier, so Peter may have been recalling it without explicitly restating it.
If you remember, the twelve at Ephesus hadn't yet received the gift of the Holy Ghost when Paul met them...in Acts 19.
Belief doesn't equate to receiving the gift.