What is the general consensus on the rapture here?

[Consecrated Life]

Please remember that God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31)
So sinners can't ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter spells out the order of things done at conversion in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What did Peter say is the eternal estate of a person who dies of heart attack after completing the first step, but before they could complete the final step in the order ?

 

[Free]

Why would our ability to ask for the Holy Spirit disappear after Jesus' resurrection?

My point is that Jesus may not be saying what you think he is saying (see the next point).

"Evil people" are not heard by God. (John 9:31)

Exactly my point, which shows your use and understanding of Luke 11:13 is not correct, since Jesus calls them evil.

Jesus won't ask His Father to send the Comforter to sinners.
Repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is necessary first.

I never said otherwise. In fact, I made that very point to show that your use of Luke 11:13 is not correct.

How do we "get in Jesus"?
We are baptized into Jesus. (Rom 6:3-7)

He didn't say it would happen instantly either.
Jesus said it earlier, so Peter may have been recalling it without explicitly restating it.
If you remember, the twelve at Ephesus hadn't yet received the gift of the Holy Ghost when Paul met them...in Acts 19.
Belief doesn't equate to receiving the gift.

Read the context. They were baptized into John’s baptism (vs 3). Paul baptized them in Jesus’s name (vs 5). Notice that no one asked. In fact, can you provide one verse where someone asked? Unless I am mistaken, the Holy Spirit just comes n every instance.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Is this thread still about the Rapture?

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Hopeful]

What did Peter say is the eternal estate of a person who dies of heart attack after completing the first step, but before they could complete the final step in the order ?

I don't know if he ever stated it, but it would be a lake of fire.
He did say..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1 Peter 4:17-18)

I don't feel that God would allow someone who is on the cusp of conversion to die before completing the requirements for salvation.

 

[Hopeful]

My point is that Jesus may not be saying what you think he is saying (see the next point).
Exactly my point, which shows your use and understanding of Luke 11:13 is not correct, since Jesus calls them evil.

I don't think that has anything to do with it.

I never said otherwise. In fact, I made that very point to show that your use of Luke 11:13 is not correct.

Jesus was also talking to pre-conversion times.
There was no "procedure" enacted yet.

Read the context. They were baptized into John’s baptism (vs 3). Paul baptized them in Jesus’s name (vs 5). Notice that no one asked. In fact, can you provide one verse where someone asked? Unless I am mistaken, the Holy Spirit just comes n every instance.

If they weren't interested in the gift of the Holy Spirit, why would they get baptized again?
When I was converted, I was told to ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I received it a few weeks later, accompanied by the gift of tongues.

God can do it any way He chooses: like with Cornelius, who received the gift before even being baptized...to impress upon the Jews that God had officially accepted Gentile converts too.

Back to the OP...

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

God can do it any way He chooses

Amen. No one is going to put the Holy Ghost in a box!

 

[Hopeful]

Amen. No one is going to put the Holy Ghost in a box!

Thankfully, we have patterns to follow, as we can't just make up our own religions.

 

[Free]

I don't think that has anything to do with it.

You’re avoiding answering the contradiction in your answers.

Jesus was also talking to pre-conversion times.

Yes. That was a point I first brought up.

There was no "procedure" enacted yet.

There was no procedure because there was no salvation.

If they weren't interested in the gift of the Holy Spirit, why would they get baptized again?

Because they weren’t saved. That was the whole point. They had received John’s baptism, which didn’t bring salvation because it was not based on the finished work of Christ. They were baptized in Jesus’s name and then received the Holy Spirit.

When I was converted, I was told to ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And yet, there is no example of this anywhere in the NT.

God can do it any way He chooses: like with Cornelius, who received the gift before even being baptized...to impress upon the Jews that God had officially accepted Gentile converts too.

Exactly. You first laid out a formula as per Peter’s speech in Acts. Now you’re again causing issues for your own position by saying that God can do it however he chooses. If I am not mistaken, if one studies the giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts, it is only mentioned in regards to new people groups in each instance. Yet, no one asked.

Back to the OP...

Sure thing.

 

[Free]

Is this thread still about the Rapture?

It is and it isn’t. The OP asked about the rapture specifically because they disagreed with their pastor’s position and left the church over it. That brings up a number of things that should be addressed.

 

[Hopeful]

You’re avoiding answering the contradiction in your answers.


Yes. That was a point I first brought up.


There was no procedure because there was no salvation.


Because they weren’t saved. That was the whole point. They had received John’s baptism, which didn’t bring salvation because it was not based on the finished work of Christ. They were baptized in Jesus’s name and then received the Holy Spirit.


And yet, there is no example of this anywhere in the NT.


Exactly. You first laid out a formula as per Peter’s speech in Acts. Now you’re again causing issues for your own position by saying that God can do it however he chooses. If I am not mistaken, if one studies the giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts, it is only mentioned in regards to new people groups in each instance. Yet, no one asked.


Sure thing.

Can't there be more than one way to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
The Samaritans and the twelve at Ephesus received it by the laying on of hands.
Cornelius and his house received it spontaneously.
I asked for it, at the behest of my baptizers and with Jesus' words in Luke 11 in mind.

As for the OP...better to honor this day without worrying about a day that may not come in our lifetime.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I don't know if he ever stated it, but it would be a lake of fire.
He did say..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1 Peter 4:17-18)

I don't feel that God would allow someone who is on the cusp of conversion to die before completing the requirements for salvation.

So Jesus then was a liar to a dying man by your theology :

:

Luk 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

For me, I will trust Christ rather than mere mortal flesh in this matter .
Kind Regards, Consecrated Life

 

[Hopeful]

So Jesus then was a liar to a dying man by your theology :

Nope, as Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins.

:

Luk 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
For me, I will trust Christ rather than mere mortal flesh in this matter .
Kind Regards, Consecrated Life

If a man waits till he is on his death bed to repent of sin, it is too late.
He had an entire life to glorify God, and failed to do so.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Nope, as Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins.

If a man waits till he is on his death bed to repent of sin, it is too late.
He had an entire life to glorify God, and failed to do so.

So the thief who waited his entire life until he was dying to ask forgiveness from Jesus was "to late" in your mind ?

Luk 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
For me, I will trust Christ rather than mere mortal flesh in this matter .

Kind Regards, Consecrated Life

 

[Hopeful]

So the thief who waited his entire life until he was dying to ask forgiveness from Jesus was "to late" in your mind ?

Luk 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
For me, I will trust Christ rather than mere mortal flesh in this matter .

Kind Regards, Consecrated Life

I feel that a lot more than just forgiveness was on the table in this loving gesture of our Lord.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I feel that a lot more than just forgiveness was on the table in this loving gesture of our Lord.

You believe the dying thief was requesting something more than forgiveness from Jesus ?

" ...for we receive the due reward of our deeds.." ( Luke 23:41 )

 

[Who Me]

"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (1 Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9)
How off base does a place have to be before you see it for what it is?

Ones view of the details of the second coming, baptism, alchol etc are not salvation issues.

If as this church, according to the poster, has good teaching and fellowship, why leave because the pastor does not dot all the 'I' of ones view of the rapture.

 

[Hopeful]

You believe the dying thief was requesting something more than forgiveness from Jesus ?

" ...for we receive the due reward of our deeds.." ( Luke 23:41 )

No, I don't think that.
I feel that the thief's crucifixion with Christ prophetically presages our own baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection: that written of in Rom 6:3-7.
The thief physically underwent what we, by the grace of God, experience spiritually.

 

[Hopeful]

Ones view of the details of the second coming, baptism, alchol etc are not salvation issues.

We certainly differ in our opinions

If as this church, according to the poster, has good teaching and fellowship, why leave because the pastor does not dot all the 'I' of ones view of the rapture.

If there is a grain of "leaven" mixed in the teachings, it will eventually blossom into other degeneracy.

 

[Who Me]

We certainly differ in our opinions

If there is a grain of "leaven" mixed in the teachings, it will eventually blossom into other degeneracy.

Yes the sin that is in each one of us will, as you say, blossom into degeneracy.


No Christian is pefect, so no church is perfect.