Bible Study What is the human soul?

[Karl]

Sorry, I don't know why it put my response in the last quote.

Gene

 

[TimothyW]

If Vine says that death doesn't ever mean "cease to exist", as in "cease to be alive", then I have to disagree with him. I understand that there are a lot of people who accept Greek Philosophy's version of death as death of the body only and the soul continues to live without having a body. I don't see the evidence for this in the Bible. According to the Bible, the people who are alive after they have died have been resurrected. Vine doesn't offer any evidence for his opinion that death means separation. Adam did NOT die the same day that he ate the fruit. We know this because Adam was still alive many years after that. And he didn't "spiritually die" that day either, if by that you mean separation from God. God still talked with Adam and Eve and their children long after the fall.

Aren't we saying the same thing?

No. because you asked if a person really dies and is fully dead, as I claim, how can they stand before Christ on Judgment Day (or something like that). I said that they could be completely dead and still stand before Christ because they have been resurrected. They are alive when they stand before Christ, albeit temporarily.

If that's what you are inferring then I'm confused about what Jesus taught us in Mark 9:44, 46, 46, the word never is asbestos and it means perpetual, has the meaning of this word changed since Jesus used it to mean the very opposite?

The word "never" is not "asbestos". The words for never are ou mh,
Asbestos means "unable to be extinguished". The meaning of asbestos has not changed, it never meant "never".

.

how can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth without a body?

Did Jesus say the weeping and gnashing goes on forever? No. Those who weep and gnash do so on their way to the furnace which will consume them. That's why they are weeping and gnashing. They are sad and angry about their fate.

But I can tell from your objections that you don't want to accept what I am saying That's okay. I will continue to believe what the Bible says. The wages of sin is death, those who reject Jesus will perish, those who believe in Him will have eternal life, those who don't believe in Him will not have eternal life.

 

[TimothyW]

Sorry, I don't know why it put my response in the last quote.

Gene

That makes it difficult for me to respond. Why do you reject Romans 6:23 which plainly says that the wages of sin is death. (I know, you don't reject it, you just believe that death is not really death)

May I be excused for believing Romans 6:23 as written? I don't see any evidence that Paul didn't mean what he wrote.

But in the end, I feel that it is useless to have this conversation. If a person wants to believe in eternal torture, they will no matter how much evidence is presented that the wicked perish and the wicked will be no more. (which are direct Bible quotes, by the way)

 

[farouk]

I don't see anihilationism as being Biblical. The Lord Jesus speaks of the fires of hell not being quenched. This hardly means that those who go there cease to exist...

 

[farouk]

Annihilationism (is this how you spell it?) seems more to give the idea of wafting on a hammock into the sunset... which certainly isn't Biblical. Where is moral responsibility and judgment there?

Blessings.

 

[Chopper]

Annihilationism (is this how you spell it?) seems more to give the idea of wafting on a hammock into the sunset... which certainly isn't Biblical. Where is moral responsibility and judgment there?

Blessings.

Yes, annihilation-ism is how it can be spelled. either your way or this. I must admit that I find it difficult to rationalize a forever lake of fire with the unsaved and devils in it. The fact that I find it difficult, in no way alters what our mighty God has prepared for those who reject Him. I can't see inside of a person who rejects our God, but I'll bet it's not pretty. I think the reason why people reject an eternal punishment for rejecting Jesus is that the thought of someone who has spent so little time on earth would have to experience this kind of torture forever. This thinking should power us to try and reach the lost while there is so little time left. Denial of this doesn't take it away!

 

[TimothyW]

I don't see anihilationism as being Biblical. The Lord Jesus speaks of the fires of hell not being quenched. This hardly means that those who go there cease to exist...

So when the Lord Jesus spoke of the way being wide that leads to (and I quote) destruction, that doesn't really mean destruction?
And when Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked shall be no more, that doesn't mean cease to exist? If the wicked do not cease to exist, then the Bible is wrong to say that the wicked are "No More".

Can you think of a situation where a fire is not quenched, but the fuel is completely consumed? I know that I can. So when Jesus spoke of the fires of hell not being quenched, He was not saying that he was going to transform the people so that they would burn alive and somehow never be burned up. Actually, the word the Bible uses to describe the burning up of the tares in Matthew 3:12 is κατακαύσει, (katakausei) and this word means "to be completely consumed by fire". This hardly means that those who are completely consumed by fire are not completely consumed by fire but remain alive forever in the fire being tortured by it.

Annihilationism (is this how you spell it?) seems more to give the idea of wafting on a hammock into the sunset... which certainly isn't Biblical. Where is moral responsibility and judgment there?

Really? You honestly think that Being Completely Destroyed is the same thing as wafting on a hammock in the sunset? First of all, where do you get such an idea? And secondly, where does the Bible say that being destroyed is the same thing as being on vacation in a hammock?

I think the reason why people reject an eternal punishment

Hi Chopper, I don't reject eternal punishment. I merely disagree with farouk and others about what the Bible says that eternal punishment consists of. Is the eternal punishment "eternal torture" or "eternal death"?
I believe that the eternal punishment is death, because I believe that the Bible clearly states that the wages of sin is death, those who do not believe in him shall perish and not have eternal life, the wicked will perish, the wicked will be no more, the soul who sins shall die, they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, the way is wide that leads to destruction, they are destroyed just as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, they go to their second death, the soul who sins shall die, and we should fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. I don't think that the idea that the eternal punishment is eternal torture is Biblical, because I can't find even one verse in the entire Bible that says "The wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever." If the eternal punishment was eternal torment in hell, the Bible would say this at least one time.

I've discussed this long enough to know that if a person wants to believe in eternal conscious torment, they will believe in ECT no matter what the Bible says. So I think that people should think about this, but we can agree to disagree. When the Lord returns, He will show us the truth. I believe that the truth is closer to Conditional Immortality than it is to Eternal Conscious Torment. I believe that an open and honest look at scripture reveals this, and it is only long standing tradition that prevents people from acknowledging this.

 

[TimothyW]

Annihilationism (is this how you spell it?) seems more to give the idea of wafting on a hammock into the sunset... which certainly isn't Biblical. Where is moral responsibility and judgment there?

Blessings.

Well, if destruction really is "wafting on a hammock into sunset", come over here and destroy me, Brother!

I don't think that you really believe being destroyed is the same as "wafting on a hammock into the sunset".

These kinds of illogical arguments are another reason I reject ECT.

 

[Chopper]

So when the Lord Jesus spoke of the way being wide that leads to (and I quote) destruction, that doesn't really mean destruction?
And when Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked shall be no more, that doesn't mean cease to exist? If the wicked do not cease to exist, then the Bible is wrong to say that the wicked are "No More".

Can you think of a situation where a fire is not quenched, but the fuel is completely consumed? I know that I can. So when Jesus spoke of the fires of hell not being quenched, He was not saying that he was going to transform the people so that they would burn alive and somehow never be burned up. Actually, the word the Bible uses to describe the burning up of the tares in Matthew 3:12 is κατακαύσει, (katakausei) and this word means "to be completely consumed by fire". This hardly means that those who are completely consumed by fire are not completely consumed by fire but remain alive forever in the fire being tortured by it.


Really? You honestly think that Being Completely Destroyed is the same thing as wafting on a hammock in the sunset? First of all, where do you get such an idea? And secondly, where does the Bible say that being destroyed is the same thing as being on vacation in a hammock?

Hi Chopper, I don't reject eternal punishment. I merely disagree with farouk and others about what the Bible says that eternal punishment consists of. Is the eternal punishment "eternal torture" or "eternal death"?
I believe that the eternal punishment is death, because I believe that the Bible clearly states that the wages of sin is death, those who do not believe in him shall perish and not have eternal life, the wicked will perish, the wicked will be no more, the soul who sins shall die, they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, the way is wide that leads to destruction, they are destroyed just as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, they go to their second death, the soul who sins shall die, and we should fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. I don't think that the idea that the eternal punishment is eternal torture is Biblical, because I can't find even one verse in the entire Bible that says "The wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever." If the eternal punishment was eternal torment in hell, the Bible would say this at least one time.

I've discussed this long enough to know that if a person wants to believe in eternal conscious torment, they will believe in ECT no matter what the Bible says. So I think that people should think about this, but we can agree to disagree. When the Lord returns, He will show us the truth. I believe that the truth is closer to Conditional Immortality than it is to Eternal Conscious Torment. I believe that an open and honest look at scripture reveals this, and it is only long standing tradition that prevents people from acknowledging this.

Hi Tim, I love you my Brother, you know that, and I value your belief's and instruction. I don't want to get in this topic because I don't want any hard feelings. As you say, we can agree to disagree. I will re-look at some Scripture to see if anything jumps out to me, something that you might consider. OK, I have come to the conclusion that you are exactly RIGHT!

 

[Karl]

Tim,

From reading the above post of Chopper I discern you are a respected member and teacher of this forum, and I'm the new kid on the block, so to speak, so in all humility I'm responding to what you have said, it's not my intention to debate.

At the very beginning of my walk with the Lord I was taught to be a Berean Acts 17:11, that is, to listen attentively, but search the Scriptures to see if it's true and I'm certain that you being a teacher encourage your students to follow the same principle, so with that in mind when you say,

But I can tell from your objections that you don't want to accept what I am saying

it's not that I don't accept what you are saying, but rather as a student asks a teacher I'm asking you questions from what I have found in my searching the Scripture to see if what you are saying is true.

So please remember I'm asking questions to a teacher, not debating, so could you answer my questions?

1. Jesus taught the fire of the Lake of Fire is perpetual and I said the word translated never is asbestos.

Mark 9:43 AndG2532 ifG1437 thyG4675 handG5495 offendG4624 thee,G4571 cut it off:G609 G846 it isG2076 betterG2570 for theeG4671 to enterG1525 intoG1519 lifeG2222 maimed,G2948 thanG2228 havingG2192 twoG1417 handsG5495 to goG565 intoG1519 hell,G1067 intoG1519 theG3588 fireG4442 that never shall be quenched:G762

G762
ἄσβεστος
asbestos
as'-bes-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G4570; not extinguished, that is, (by implication) perpetual: - not to be quenched, unquenchable.

Am I not correctly understanding what Jesus is saying, or is the translation wrong?

2. Jesus taught the fire of the Lake of Fire is perpetual and I gave the example of the worm that never dies being perpetual.

Mark 9:44 WhereG3699 theirG846 wormG4663 diethG5053 not,G3756 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 is notG3756 quenched.G4570

G5053
τελευτάω
teleutaō
tel-yoo-tah'-o
From a presumed derivative of G5055; to finish life (by implication of G979), that is, expire (demise): - be dead, decease, die.

G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but.

Again, am I not correctly reading of what Jesus said about the worm and the fire being perpetual?


3. Do we both agree that the words perpetual and eternity both have the same meaning?
If so then what am I to do with these two verses?

Matt 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

Mark 3:29 ButG1161 heG3739 G302 that shall blasphemeG987 againstG1519 theG3588 HolyG40 GhostG4151 hathG2192 never forgiveness,G3756 G859 G1519 G165 butG235 isG2076 in dangerG1777 of eternal G166 damnation:G2920

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


Jesus is speaking in these two verses, please note the word eternal is the same Strong's number, so are you saying that since you believe and teach the punishment of the damned is not eternal then I must conclude from what you are saying the word eternal does not mean perpetual/forever/eternal, ..so then my salvation is not eternal/forever/perpetual either?

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Chopper]

Tim,

From reading the above post of Chopper I discern you are a respected member and teacher of this forum, and I'm the new kid on the block, so to speak, so in all humility I'm responding to what you have said, it's not my intention to debate.

At the very beginning of my walk with the Lord I was taught to be a Berean Acts 17:11, that is, to listen attentively, but search the Scriptures to see if it's true and I'm certain that you being a teacher encourage your students to follow the same principle, so with that in mind when you say,



it's not that I don't accept what you are saying, but rather as a student asks a teacher I'm asking you questions from what I have found in my searching the Scripture to see if what you are saying is true.

So please remember I'm asking questions to a teacher, not debating, so could you answer my questions?

1. Jesus taught the fire of the Lake of Fire is perpetual and I said the word translated never is asbestos.

Mark 9:43 AndG2532 ifG1437 thyG4675 handG5495 offendG4624 thee,G4571 cut it off:G609 G846 it isG2076 betterG2570 for theeG4671 to enterG1525 intoG1519 lifeG2222 maimed,G2948 thanG2228 havingG2192 twoG1417 handsG5495 to goG565 intoG1519 hell,G1067 intoG1519 theG3588 fireG4442 that never shall be quenched:G762

G762
ἄσβεστος
asbestos
as'-bes-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G4570; not extinguished, that is, (by implication) perpetual: - not to be quenched, unquenchable.

Am I not correctly understanding what Jesus is saying, or is the translation wrong?

2. Jesus taught the fire of the Lake of Fire is perpetual and I gave the example of the worm that never dies being perpetual.

Mark 9:44 WhereG3699 theirG846 wormG4663 diethG5053 not,G3756 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 is notG3756 quenched.G4570

G5053
τελευτάω
teleutaō
tel-yoo-tah'-o
From a presumed derivative of G5055; to finish life (by implication of G979), that is, expire (demise): - be dead, decease, die.

G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but.

Again, am I not correctly reading of what Jesus said about the worm and the fire being perpetual?


3. Do we both agree that the words perpetual and eternity both have the same meaning?
If so then what am I to do with these two verses?

Matt 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

Mark 3:29 ButG1161 heG3739 G302 that shall blasphemeG987 againstG1519 theG3588 HolyG40 GhostG4151 hathG2192 never forgiveness,G3756 G859 G1519 G165 butG235 isG2076 in dangerG1777 of eternal G166 damnation:G2920

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


Jesus is speaking in these two verses, please note the word eternal is the same Strong's number, so are you saying that since you believe and teach the punishment of the damned is not eternal then I must conclude from what you are saying the word eternal does not mean perpetual/forever/eternal, ..so then my salvation is not eternal/forever/perpetual either?

Blessings,

Gene

 

[TimothyW]

I'm not a teacher here, Chopper and I have mutual respect for each other and a mutual willingness to disagree.
I am merely a Berean, same as you. Searching the scriptures to see if these things are true.

Perpetual is not a good translation for ἄσβεστος, because "perpetual" ignores the "quench" aspect of ἄσβεστος.
ἄσβεστος truly does mean "unable to be quenched".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a)/sbestos&la=greek#lexicon
unquenchable.
From a (as a negative particle) and a derivative of sbennumi; not extinguished, i.e. (by implication) perpetual -- not to be quenched, unquenchable.

An unquenchable cannot be quenched, that means that it can't be put out. That doesn't mean that it will never go out. A fire will go out without being quenched once the fuel supply is exhausted.
And in the verse, Matthew 3:12 John says that the chaff will be κατακαύσει, completely burned up.

Concerning Mark 9:44, consider that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
This isn't saying that the people are alive forever in Hell being tormented by worms and perpetual fire. This is saying that the worms are eating the dead bodies of those who rebelled against the Lord, and the fire is burning their corpses. If this is a picture of Hell, it doesn't work to prove eternal conscious torment. It shows that those who rebel against God will perish.

I've already discussed Matt 25:46, you can review my prior answer. Eternal Punishment doesn't automatically mean eternal torment. What are you to make of MAtt 25:46? It say only one group gets eternal life. So how can we read that and think that BOTH groups get eternal life, one in heaven and one in hell? You can't.

In the Greek manuscripts, there are 2 versions of Mark 3:29
ὃς δ’ ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος.
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin. (ESV)
OR
ὃς δ’ ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλ’ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου κρίσεως.
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is liable to eternal judgment.
κρίσεως doesn't mean "damnation".
But neither of these versions say that the person who does this will be alive forever, the first version says the sin will last forever, not the sinner.
The second says the judgment will last forever (or pertaining to aion, aionian), but we all agree the judgment is eternal. We disagree on what the resulting punishment consists of. I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.

I am not in a position of authority on CF, I'm just someone who reads the Bible.

 

[Chopper]

I'm not a teacher here, Chopper and I have mutual respect for each other and a mutual willingness to disagree.
I am merely a Berean, same as you. Searching the scriptures to see if these things are true.

Perpetual is not a good translation for ἄσβεστος, because "perpetual" ignores the "quench" aspect of ἄσβεστος.
ἄσβεστος truly does mean "unable to be quenched".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a)/sbestos&la=greek#lexicon
unquenchable.
From a (as a negative particle) and a derivative of sbennumi; not extinguished, i.e. (by implication) perpetual -- not to be quenched, unquenchable.

An unquenchable cannot be quenched, that means that it can't be put out. That doesn't mean that it will never go out. A fire will go out without being quenched once the fuel supply is exhausted.
And in the verse, Matthew 3:12 John says that the chaff will be κατακαύσει, completely burned up.

Concerning Mark 9:44, consider that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
This isn't saying that the people are alive forever in Hell being tormented by worms and perpetual fire. This is saying that the worms are eating the dead bodies of those who rebelled against the Lord, and the fire is burning their corpses. If this is a picture of Hell, it doesn't work to prove eternal conscious torment. It shows that those who rebel against God will perish.

I've already discussed Matt 25:46, you can review my prior answer. Eternal Punishment doesn't automatically mean eternal torment. What are you to make of MAtt 25:46? It say only one group gets eternal life. So how can we read that and think that BOTH groups get eternal life, one in heaven and one in hell? You can't.

In the Greek manuscripts, there are 2 versions of Mark 3:29
ὃς δ’ ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος.
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin. (ESV)
OR
ὃς δ’ ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλ’ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου κρίσεως.
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is liable to eternal judgment.
κρίσεως doesn't mean "damnation".
But neither of these versions say that the person who does this will be alive forever, the first version says the sin will last forever, not the sinner.
The second says the judgment will last forever (or pertaining to aion, aionian), but we all agree the judgment is eternal. We disagree on what the resulting punishment consists of. I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.

I am not in a position of authority on CF, I'm just someone who reads the Bible.

Oh Oh, my theory just went out the window....This last post of yours has got me thinking that you are right. I don't know, all of a sudden the thought came to me that these words make sense! Tim, we are ok with you and I living with Jesus forever and forever and forever, right? To tell you the truth, I've always had trouble with believing that my Brother (not saved) will be in torment forever.

 

[TimothyW]

Oh Oh, my theory just went out the window....This last post of yours has got me thinking that you are right. I don't know, all of a sudden the thought came to me that these words make sense! Tim, we are ok with you and I living with Jesus forever and forever and forever, right? To tell you the truth, I've always had trouble with believing that my Brother (not saved) will be in torment forever.

I'm glad I could help.

Being dead forever is still a terrible fate for anyone, so we still have the responsibility to share the gospel.
Is your unsaved brother still alive?

 

[TimothyW]

There is a website that helps explain the doctrine of Conditional Immortality, but please don't just take a website's word for anything, check what they say against scripture to see if it is true.

"Welcome to Rethinking Hell. If this is your first time here, please read on to discover what this project is all about, and why others—especially our fellow evangelical Christians—may wish to stick around!
The Bible is the final authority for Christian belief. This means that believers should strive to understand what it teaches! Sometimes, inevitably, we misunderstand something. That matters most whenever it's something of eternal significance. All the more so if we teach, defend, and act upon it (which we should, if it's true). Biblical understanding is just critically important."​

http://www.rethinkinghell.com/welcome

 

[Chopper]

I'm glad I could help.

Being dead forever is still a terrible fate for anyone, so we still have the responsibility to share the gospel.
Is your unsaved brother still alive?

Yes he is Tim. I recently spent two and a half weeks with him as his wife was dying of cancer. About two months before she died, I laid out the plan of Salvation for her, of which she was somewhat familiar. When I asked her if she would like to respond to Jesus, my brother piped up and said, "I don't think she's ready" at which she agreed. The last two weeks of her life I asked her several times about Jesus as her Savior, and she refused. My brother is very hostile to the Gospel. He once said to me that I had changed a lot from what I used to be, but he was all right. My brother is very successful at whatever he has done, and made quite a lot of money. He has seen me pastor small churches, having to work a second job beside. He knows my love for folk who can't afford a full time preacher. My Lord made it possible to get a great college education in Maine's finest Bible College. I wanted to take that knowledge to country folk who had been sharing a preacher with 3 other churches. He saw me struggle financially, not knowing that the Lord was meeting my needs.

His wife died without making an outward profession and he has softened a little because of the love and compassion that Jesus was able to work through me.

Thank you again for your understanding of the Scriptures through the Greek and language tools. Your efforts in learning them has sure paid off, if I'm the only recipient.

 

[Karl]

Oh Oh, my theory just went out the window....This last post of yours has got me thinking that you are right. I don't know, all of a sudden the thought came to me that these words make sense!

My dear brother, be real careful here, we are living in the last few moments of this earth as we know it, almost every book of the New Testament warns us about false teaching, ...we don't follow cunningly devise fables 2 Pet 1:16, remember the axiom, ...if it is new it's not true and if it's true it's not new.

Annihilationism is a doctrine concocted by Miller who along with Russell introduced this heresy into to their cults in the 1800's, ...Jesus taught eternal punishment, the writers of the epistles taught it, the early church fathers believed in eternal punishment, ...it has made a resurgence today because the influence of New Age Movement and Eastern religions infiltrating into the Apostate church.

Don't be swayed by twisted Scripture on the internet, it's just the same old lie from the Garden, "Did God really say?'

Consider this, do you believe Jesus is God? I know you do, you own that verse, know one can take it from you or change your mind, so if you aren't sure about a subject that just means the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it, taught it to you, we don't learn from men, it's the work of the Holy Spirit to teach us, that is one of the foundational conditions of the New Covenant,

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31:33, 34

And reiterated by John in his Epistle,

But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jn 2:27

It's the Holy Spirit that teaches us and brings to remembrance what Jesus has said,

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

Going back to the New Covenant, the Lord said He will teach us in our hearts, you own the Truth that Jesus is God in your heart, not in your head, proof being you said you changed your mind, but we don't change our hearts, false teaching is a fiery dart from the devil, which Paul teaches us to put on the helmet of salvation for protection against it, how does the helmet of salvation protect us, because God said in verse 34 of the New Covenant,

...saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That's salvation, your saved brother, you have the helmet, so put it on, resist the devil and he will flee from you (and how he would like to bring a pastor down), ...so use it brother, if Jesus said it then it's true Heb 6:18 and the Holy Spirit will teach us and place His Truth in our hearts (it's an unconditional promise from God in the New Covenant), so may I suggest you spend some quite time alone with Him and let Him teach you the Truth, ...receive it, pray it in, appropriate it into your life and then walk in the Truth 3 John 1:4, I can assure you when we own it in our hearts, just like we own the Truth Jesus is God in our hearts, no one can change our minds..

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Kathi]

Have you ever noticed that when there is a plane crash they always ask how many souls aboard.Not how many people?

 

[Deborah13]

if debating might be an issue.

What? You think this cannot be discussed without debate?

I was just going to pass up on posting. No really, really.....

 

[TimothyW]

My dear brother, be real careful here, we are living in the last few moments of this earth as we know it, almost every book of the New Testament warns us about false teaching, ...

Well, thanks. It's real pleasant to be called a false teacher. Luckily (or by design) every thing I have said has been solidly backed up by scripture. So nobody needs to take my word for anything. They can check the scriptures to see if what I say is true. You claimed that you wanted to do this. So why start name calling now?

we don't follow cunningly devise fables 2 Pet 1:16,

Neither do I. I believe what the Bible says.

remember the axiom, ...if it is new it's not true and if it's true it's not new.

Words to live by, I suppose. What scripture is that from again? "The world is round" was once a new message. I suppose that makes it untrue. Jesus Christ's message of salvation was a new message once. I suppose people went around saying "If it's new it's not true, and if it's true it's not new". They probably wanted to kill the apostles, because their message was new. And another thing, the message that the wages of sin is death is NOT new. Paul wrote that in the first century, and the early church fathers also believed that those who reject the gospel will not live forever. Irenaeus wrote that those who reject the gospel will have a "discontinuance of existance". Irenaeus lived from 130 AD to 202 AD.
The false message of eternal torture in Hell was new once. Does that make it false? No, Eternal Torture is false because it disagrees with what the Bible says.
Every message was new once, does that make everything false? Think brother.

Annihilationism is a doctrine concocted by Miller who along with Russell introduced this heresy into to their cults in the 1800's,

This is simply not true, and even it were true, this fallacy is called "poisoning the well".
Cults such as the Mormons and the Muslims believe in eternal torture. Does that make eternal torture true or false?
Adolph Hitler believed in eternal torture in Hell. See what happens when you start poisoning the well? I am CERTAINLY NOT going to believe anything Adolf Hitler believed. He was truly evil.

Conditional Immortality, (what you call "Annihilationism") was around long before the 1800s. And Heresy? Why do you call it heresy? Was Saint Paul a heretic when he wrote "The wages of sin is death?" Was Saint John a heretic when he wrote "The testimony is this, whoever has the Son of God has life and whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life"? Was Jesus Christ a heretic when he said "The way is wide that leads to destruction, fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna"?

Jesus taught eternal punishment,

You are not paying attention. How many times did I say that I believe in eternal punishment? I just disagree with you on what that punishment consists of. You think the eternal punishment is eternal torture. I agree with Jesus Christ who said that the punishment is destruction.

the writers of the epistles taught it,

No, they didn't. They taught that the wages of sin is death (Paul), Sin brings forth death (James), False teachers will be destroyed (Peter), he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life (John), by these things they are destroyed (Jude), and the lost will be consumed by fire (the writer of Hebrews).
You are simply mistaken.

the early church fathers believed in eternal punishment,

I believe in eternal punishment, I believe that punishment is eternal destruction, not eternal torture, and the early church fathers also believed in Conditional Immortality.

...it has made a resurgence today because the influence of New Age Movement and Eastern religions infiltrating into the Apostate church.

It is making a resurgence today because it is written in scripture.

Don't be swayed by twisted Scripture on the internet, it's just the same old lie from the Garden, "Did God really say?'

So we should believe the serpent who said "Surely you will not die"? That's also YOUR message! I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as Paul wrote, just as God Himself told Adam.


You don't have to believe me, I am nothing. But you really should believe what the Bible says, and not religious sounding traditions that contradict the Bible.