Bible Study What is the human soul?

[Chopper]

My dear brother, be real careful here, we are living in the last few moments of this earth as we know it, almost every book of the New Testament warns us about false teaching, ...we don't follow cunningly devise fables 2 Pet 1:16, remember the axiom, ...if it is new it's not true and if it's true it's not new.

Annihilationism is a doctrine concocted by Miller who along with Russell introduced this heresy into to their cults in the 1800's, ...Jesus taught eternal punishment, the writers of the epistles taught it, the early church fathers believed in eternal punishment, ...it has made a resurgence today because the influence of New Age Movement and Eastern religions infiltrating into the Apostate church.

Don't be swayed by twisted Scripture on the internet, it's just the same old lie from the Garden, "Did God really say?'

Consider this, do you believe Jesus is God? I know you do, you own that verse, know one can take it from you or change your mind, so if you aren't sure about a subject that just means the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it, taught it to you, we don't learn from men, it's the work of the Holy Spirit to teach us, that is one of the foundational conditions of the New Covenant,

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31:33, 34

And reiterated by John in his Epistle,

But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jn 2:27

It's the Holy Spirit that teaches us and brings to remembrance what Jesus has said,

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

Going back to the New Covenant, the Lord said He will teach us in our hearts, you own the Truth that Jesus is God in your heart, not in your head, proof being you said you changed your mind, but we don't change our hearts, false teaching is a fiery dart from the devil, which Paul teaches us to put on the helmet of salvation for protection against it, how does the helmet of salvation protect us, because God said in verse 34 of the New Covenant,

...saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That's salvation, your saved brother, you have the helmet, so put it on, resist the devil and he will flee from you (and how he would like to bring a pastor down), ...so use it brother, if Jesus said it then it's true Heb 6:18 and the Holy Spirit will teach us and place His Truth in our hearts (it's an unconditional promise from God in the New Covenant), so may I suggest you spend some quite time alone with Him and let Him teach you the Truth, ...receive it, pray it in, appropriate it into your life and then walk in the Truth 3 John 1:4, I can assure you when we own it in our hearts, just like we own the Truth Jesus is God in our hearts, no one can change our minds..

Blessings,

Gene

I appreciate your concern my friend. I'm in the process right now examining "if these things are so" I have others who are Greek students. Tim and I have a special bond together. Bikers don't lie to other bikers! It's a unwritten code! We defend each other with our lives. I am friends with hard core bikers, some are 1%ers. You try and deceive a biker, your dead. Not Christian!! But that is life in the Biker world.

So automatically I trust Tim. we have gone back and forth on this but the Greek words and understanding them has made me change my mind. If I see any flaws in it, I'll change my mind.

 

[chessman]

Annihilationism is a doctrine concocted by Miller who along with Russell introduced this heresy into to their cults in the 1800's, ...

That's factually false. Not that they are cultist (which there were), but that they were the first teachers that the human soul was naturally immortal:

Based on their firsthand understanding of the Scriptures as verified to these Apostolic Church Fathers by the apostles (those who were alive and taught by one or more of the 12 apostles), here’s what they taught about the soul’s immortality:


Clement of Rome:

1 Clem 35:1-4 80-140 A.D

How blessed and marvelous are the gifts of God, dearly beloved!!

Life in immortality, splendor in righteousness, truth in boldness,

faith in confidence, temperance in sanctification! And all these

things fall under our apprehension.

What then, think ye, are the things preparing for them that patiently

await Him? The Creator and Father of the ages, the All holy One

Himself knoweth their number and their beauty.

Let us therefore contend, that we may be found in the number of those

that patiently await Him, to the end that we may be partakers of His

promised gifts.


1 Clement taught conditional immortality!


Odes of Solomon: 100-200 A.D.

Ode 3:1

I am putting on the love of the Lord.

2. And His members are with Him, and I am dependent on them; and He loves me.

3. For I should not have known how to love the Lord, if He had not continuously loved me.

4. Who is able to distinguish love, except him who is loved?

5. I love the Beloved and I myself love Him, and where His rest is, there also am I.

6. And I shall be no stranger, because there is no jealousy with the Lord Most High and Merciful.

7. I have been united to Him, because the lover has found the Beloved, because I love Him that is the Son, I shall become a son.

8. Indeed he who is joined to Him who is immortal, truly shall be immortal.


It is said of the Odes of Solomon, that it’s likely the first Christian Hymnal. Ode three sings of conditional immortality!


Didache: (Teaching of the Twelve Apostle)

It is said to be a handbook used in instructing new Christian converts.

120 A.D.


Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion. But after you are filled, give thanks this way:


We thank Thee, holy Father, for Thy holy name which You didst cause to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality,


Early Christians were instructed that immortality was a gift to the saved and the saved only! So much for Conditional Immortality arising out of cults ~1800 A.D. That’s just false.


Ignatius of Antioch:


Ignatius to the Ephesians: 105-115 A.D.


Chapter XVII.-Beware of False Doctrines.


For this end did the Lord suffer the ointment to be poured upon His head, that He might breathe immortality into His Church


Ignatius to the Magnesians

Chapter X.-Beware of Judaizing.


Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be.


Ignatius to the Trallians

Chapter IX.-Reference to the History of Christ.


His Father will so raise up us who believe in Him by Christ Jesus, apart from whom we do not possess the true life.


Chapter XI.-Avoid the Deadly Errors of the Docetae.


Avoid also the children of the evil one, Theodotus and Cleobulus, who produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies, and that not a mere temporary death, but one that shall endure for ever. … But Christ invites you to [share in] His immortality, by His passion and resurrection, inasmuch as ye are His members.


Ignatius to the Philadelphians

Chapter III.-Avoid Schismatics.


If any man follows him that separates from the truth, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God; and if any man does not stand aloof from the preacher of falsehood, he shall be condemned to hell. … Have no fellowship with such a man, lest ye perish along with him,



Ignatius of Antioch taught conditional immortality! Furthermore he taught that to be condemned to Hell is to perish. Which, is the biblical teaching of course. Note how these statements appear in the chapters concerning warnings about False Teachings.


Polycarp of Smyrna:


Polycarp to the Philippians: 109 A.D.

Jesus Christ, who endured to face even death for our sins, whom God

raised, having loosed the pangs of Hades.


Polycarp equates death to Hades. He was good friends with Ignatius who clearly and frequently taught Conditional Immortality. Even implying that the alternate teaching (souls are immortal by their nature) was a false teaching.

 

[jasoncran]

russel?uhm Im a former a jw. I wouldn't listen to him at all. the jws don't even like him anymore.

 

[Barth Jones]

the church tends to get mixed up with the greek view of flesh is evil and spirit is good.

the bible doesn't.

when god breathing life into adam. he became a living soul. the word nephesh means flesh. in that context its nephesh chaya. living flesh. we wont be in heaven for ever. jesus had a fleshly body when he was risen. we will have our version of a body like that.

Hi Gene,

I've heard people say that death in the Bible doesn't mean death, it means separation instead of death. I don't see any evidence for that. The Greek word for death is "thanatos", and it means "death". There is a Greek word that means "to separate", this word is aphorizo. If Paul had wanted to say that the wages of sin is separation from God in Romans 6:23, he could have written that. But he didn't. In that section, Paul goes into great depth explaining that death came to the world as a result of sin. Adam sinned, and death came into the world as a result of that sin. Adam sinned and Adam died, just as God said he would. Why do you think there are so many animal sacrifices for sin in the Old Testament? The death of the animal is a substitute for the sinner's death that is owed. The theological term is "substitutionary atonement". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement
But the death of animals can't remove our sin, that is just a picture of the real substitution, Jesus' death on the cross in exchange for the death we owe. Since he died for us, we can receive eternal life from Him.

We know from the Bible that Jesus will return again, and all who are in the grave will hear his voice and come out. We know that everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
John 5:28, 2 Cor 5:10
The people who stand before Christ await judgment and condemnation do not stand before Christ because they are inherently immortal, or "alive" as disembodied spirits or "souls". No, they are able to stand before Christ because He has resurrected them for Judgment. And the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. If they have not trusted Jesus Christ for atonement, then their sins are still present, and the penalty for sin is death. They die a second time. The Bible calls this second death "the second death". They perish, just as the Bible says. I've heard people say "Well, God wouldn't resurrect them just to send them back to death, that's a waste of God's time, He would just leave them dead." I want to address that now, because it comes up every time I discuss this. The lost must be resurrected for judgement, because it would be unjust to condemn a person to death without a trial. God is just, so the lost are raised in order to fulfill God's justice and righteousness. Besides that, it is what the Bible says will happen, so if anyone thinks it is a waste of time, that doesn't matter. God says that is what he will do.

But not all will receive eternal life. There is a second death for those who reject Jesus Christ. You say "all means all". I agree. I could say "You ate all the fruit!" and that would mean there is no fruit left. Or I could say "you ate all the apples", meaning that the oranges are still there. All who are in Christ will receive eternal life. Those who are not in Christ will perish, just as the Bible says in John 3:16, Romans 6:23, and many other passages.

The Bible doesn't say that the lost will receive eternally perfect bodies that will be tormented forever. Look at Rev 20:14. John tells us what he means by the lake of fire. He says "the lake of fire is the second death". The lost are burned up in the lake of fire, they go to their second death. This is death, the second time. They were resurrected from their first death, they stood before Christ for judgement, found to be in sin, and sent to their second death. There is no resurrection from the second death. It is permanent. After the lost die a second time, they remain dead forever. This is what it means to perish.

But they perish, being burned up, in torment forever, the second death. That is what you're saying, right?

 

[jasoncran]

But they perish, being burned up, in torment forever, the second death. That is what you're saying, right?

no, im a believer in gehenna where one is tormented day and night. I have spent time on both the ideas of sheol and gehenna both from jewish and Christian views. they are similar. the jews (chassidics) see them as either a place of temporary torture or as we do a place of eternal damnation with punishment.this depends on which rabbi you ask.

 

[Kathi]

But they perish, being burned up, in torment forever, the second death. That is what you're saying, right?

The souls in hell will be in eternal punishment.They will be conscience and aware that they are burning forever and ever.

 

[Karl]

russel?uhm Im a former a jw. I wouldn't listen to him at all. the jws don't even like him anymore.

So, once you were deceived but now your not, ...thank you Jason for more corroboration of my point..

Gene

 

[Barth Jones]

The souls in hell will be in eternal punishment.They will be conscience and aware that they are burning forever and ever.

Yes, I know. I was confused about the person's view whom I questioned. Still not quite clear on that. Just jumped in randomly for the most part.

 

[chessman]

I could go on with the other Apostolic Father’s teachings from my post #42. They all seem to have taught conditional immortality. But I’ll skip forward in time to the ones that taught otherwise. I am unaware of any actual Apostolic Church Fathers (one sitting under the teaching of an Apostle) that directly taught anything other than conditional immortality.


So what’s the first record of any church father’s writings that mentions something similar to ECT of the soul and/or body/soul doctrine for the lost? When and where did it become so “traditional”? Some people say Mathetes was the first, but I think that’s incorrect:


Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus:

130-200 A.D.


6:8 The soul though itself immortal dwelleth in a

mortal tabernacle; so Christians sojourn amidst

perishable things, while they look for the

imperishability which is in the heavens.


He does say “the soul” is immortal. And some people will pick this sound bit quote out of its context. It is not at all clear here that Mathetes means that a non-Christian’s soul is immortal. He’s talking about the Christian souls. Note the use of the mortal “tabernacle” in speaking of the body. He’s speaking of a Christian not a non-Christian being immortal. And he clarifies that imperishability comes via the heavens, even in this one sentence. But he’s even clearer later about what he thinks happens to the lost soul:


then shalt thou

condemn the deceit and error of the world; when thou

shalt perceive the true life which is in heaven, when

thou shalt despise the apparent death which is here on

earth, when thou shalt fear the real death, which is

reserved for those that shall be condemned to the

eternal fire that shall punish those delivered over to

it unto the end.


The eternal fire=real death=their punishment, which is what Conditional Immortality teaches.


So when/where did the doctrine of ECT of the losts’ souls come from since it wasn’t from any of these Apostolic Fathers?


Athenagoras of Athens, 175-180 A.D.


A PLEA FOR THE CHRISTIANS BY ATHENAGORAS THE ATHENIAN: PHILOSOPHER AND CHRISTIAN


CHAP. XXXI.--CONFUTATION OF THE OTHER CHARGES BROUGHT AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS.


For if we believed that we should live only the present life, then we might be suspected of sinning, through being enslaved to flesh and blood, or overmastered by gain or carnal desire; but since we know that God is witness to what we think and what we say both by night and by day, and that He, being Himself light, sees all things in our heart, we are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly (since we shall abide near God, and with God, free from all change or suffering in the soul, not as flesh, even though we shall have flesh, but as heavenly spirit), or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated. On these grounds it is not likely that we should wish to do evil, or deliver ourselves over to the great Judge to be punished.



So here we have a converted Greek Platonist philosopher being what seems like the first in the Christian Church to teach against conditional immortality of the soul. It comes at the very end of the 2nd Century (75 years after John dies) and from an Athens’ educated Greek philosopher!


How was his teaching accepted in the church? Short answer; with no small amount of controversy. But he was not alone in the middle of the 3rd Century.


TERTULLIAN


APOLOGY, 197-220 A.D.


but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. A notable proof this of the fire eternal! a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn, and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?


So in the early 3rd Century, we have full on ECT teaching. Note how Tertullian defends his teaching. Mountains burn and last, therefore the lost do as well. Pretty "clever".


CHAP. XXII.--RECAPITULATION. DEFINITION OF THE SOUL.


Hermogenes has already heard from us what are the other natural faculties of the soul, … We have assigned, then, to the soul both that freedom of the will which we just now mentioned, and its dominion over the works of nature, and its occasional gift of divination, independently of that endowment of prophecy which accrues to it expressly from the grace of God. We shall therefore now quit this subject of the soul's disposition, in order to set out fully in order its various qualities. The soul, then, we define to be sprung from the breath of God, immortal, possessing body, having form, simple in its substance


So here we have the first teacher that said the soul is naturally immortal via the “breath of God” argument. Note, “we define” the soul is immortal versus some Scripture that says the soul is immortal. Again, Chapter and verse would be great but it’s not part of Tertullian’s “argument”.

Then comes more teachers, teaching that the soul is immortal. Note, they disagree as to when it becomes immortal. Some, such as Origen of Alexandria, taught that upon the lost’s resurrection, they were given immortal souls. Odd, really. But Origen says it “is by the change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it [soul] cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishment.”

Which would put him the ECT camp with Tertullian, but for a different reason! Tertullian thought the souls was created immortal at infancy were as Origen thought they were resurrected and given immortal souls only at that time. Odd.


Then (by the middle of the third Century) the debate began full bore. But the newcomers were the ones teaching that the soul was immortal (not the other way around)!


COMMODIANUS OF AFRICA 240 A.D.

Another church father that debated the soul’s immortality: Commadianus says “O fool, you do not absolutely die, nor when dead, do you escape the lofty one.”. Had this guy not read the CFNet ToS, or what? Pretty strong argument there to call you opponent in debating the mortality of the soul a “fool”, don't you think.

But the point is, again not until you get into the middle of the 3rd Century do you start seeing the church debate whether the souls of the lost are immortal.

NOVATION was one during this mid-third century time, still keeping with the original Apostolic Father’s teaching that souls were only gifted with immortality through being In Christ. He makes the counter point to some of his critics; “if immortal souls cannot be killed, the soul has this excellence of immortality that it cannot be slain”. His point (which I think is a great one) means God doesn’t have the capability to kill the souls of the lost on his critic’s view. We know God is more fearful than that (Matt 10:28).

GREGORY OF THAUMATURGUS OF NEO-CAESAREA, 233-270 A.D.

Taught by Origen and shared his ECT view. He writes extensively on the subject, proving that again in the middle part of the 3rd Century, the mortality or immortality of the soul was a “hot topic” of debate.

ARNOBIUS, 303-310 A.D.

He is sometimes mentioned as the “first” to teach annihilation or conditional immortality. Mostly by people that don’t know what they are talking about since it’s false. He spoke a lot about it, sure. But he did so in debate with the relatively new fade to creep into the church from Athens (souls are immortal naturally types (i.e. Platonists). A was literally defending the position held by all the Apostolic Fathers and the majority of the earliest of those coming just after the Apostolic Fathers. Especially the ones that were not from Athens and/or Platonic philosophy schools.

So, my point is that any argument against conditional Immortality that says conditional immortality is a modern invention (~1800 A.D.), is just flat out wrong.

 

[Barth Jones]

We need "concise." You are loved and appreciated.

 

[Karl]

Chessman, I'm with what you are saying, thank you for being "concise," I seriously doubt there are many here that are familiar with the church history you have posted, yes the doctrine was expounded before the 1800's, but is it really necessary for this discussion, ...there was a reemergence of the heresy by these two fellows in the 1800's, ...my point was to show it was a new doctrine for us today, circulating in the apostate church,

Gene

 

[Gary]

I don't read Greek or understand Hebrew. The only book I read concerning the christian faith is the bible. While I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, I believe the Lord has blessed me with a liberal dose of common sense. That could be a delusion, but for now I'm going with it.

I was reading this one day and something caught my eye. It made me question, "why"?

Romans 9
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,


Why would God intentionally create a living soul that was destined for eternal torment? I mean that individual has no say whatsoever where he will spend eternity. He couldn't repent even if he wanted to. He was created specifically for destruction.

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.


Think about it. There has to be more to the doctrine of eternal damnation than meets the eye. I'm not saying we should question scripture, because I truly believe He is truthful in what He says. It just doesn't make sense "to me" that He would do something like that without making some sort of "escape clause" for those who have no choice in the matter.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there. Something to ponder.

As always, just my opinion.

.

 

[Kathi]

Is this the subject matter that you are questioning?
Their are two main views on the doctrine of election(or predestination).One view which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view,teaches that God through His omniscience knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation.On the basis of this divine foreknowledge God elects these individuals "before the foundation of the world".This view is held by the majority of American evangelists.
The second main view is the Augustinian view,which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ,but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ.
Who then has the ultimate choice in salvation- God or man? In the first view,man has control;his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God's election.God can provide the way of Salvation through Jesus Christ.
In the second or Augustinian view,God has control;He is the one who,of His own sovereign will,freely chooses those whom He will save.
It all depends how you interpret scripture if you believe in view one or view two.I personally believe in view one.

 

[Gary]

jesus had a fleshly body when he was risen. we will have our version of a body like that.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

 

[TimothyW]

But they perish, being burned up, in torment forever, the second death. That is what you're saying, right?

No. How can someone perish, be burned up, die the second death AND ALSO be in torment forever? They can't. They are not alive and in torment forever. They perish. They are burned up. They die. The wages of sin is death.

Comment deleted That's the opposite of what I believe. I believe what the Bible says. Only those who are in Christ will have eternal life.

 

[TimothyW]

Yes, I know. I was confused about the person's view whom I questioned. Still not quite clear on that. Just jumped in randomly for the most part.

Who were you asking? You quoted two different people.

 

[TimothyW]

Gary, I agree.

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Paul says the vessels were prepared for destruction. Setting aside predestination for a minute, It sure looks like the lost are destroyed, not preserved forever in Hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead. Comment deleted How does a person look at a verse like Romans 9:22 and come away thinking that the vessels prepared for destruction will never be destroyed?

 

[jasoncran]

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Comment deleted Where is the earth and what is dwelling on the earth if its bad to have flesh? the bible doesn't support the idea of eternity as angels nor spirits. where is god in revalation 22?

do we fully understand what the body will be like no? but we will have one.

 

[Barth Jones]

No. How can someone perish, be burned up, die the second death AND ALSO be in torment forever? They can't. They are not alive and in torment forever. They perish. They are burned up. They die. The wages of sin is death.

Comment deleted I believe what the Bible says. Only those who are in Christ will have eternal life.

Eternal life has nothing to do with hell's eternal torment--that's the second death, which is indeed eternal but no life whatsoever. At some point most of us have probably fancied the notion that death is just oblivion, but the Bible is quite clear that hell does not annihilate, but is a place of eternal torment. If it's not obvious in passages cited here, or from an honest study of John's Revelation you can't miss it in Luke-- “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

I hope none of us miss the point of knowing about hell, this side of death--"Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others."--2 Cor 5:11

 

[Chopper]

OK Guys, even though I'm involved in this thread, I must step in and caution everyone that is involved in this thread. The name calling and derogatory statements must stop......TIME OUT!.....Lets gather our selves and remember that Jesus through the Holy Spirit is in each one of us. To insult one is to insult Jesus in that one.

I love you all and right now, after studying all that is written, I'm going back to what I've always believed. So I don't want to be an object of one side wanting me on their side or visa versa.