What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

[Hitch]

This statement is oxy moronic, How could It possably be fair for God to predestine some and not others. The entire calvenist concept is at its nature unfair, and survives only because it tickles the pride of those who desire to feel more special to God than those inferiors.

How many of Calvin's titles have you read personally Warhorse?

 

[Ajax 777]

The Bible is about Christ. Not about this generation

It's the message of the Good News, the word of Christ,
the testimony of GOD concerning HIS Son,
and it is to all generations, this one included. :yes

 

[jasoncran]

Oh WoW !!!

Sorry. I did not think it was something that drastic. I was responding to just one or two of your posts which obviously did not tell the whole story.

You have fun supporting that belief friend.

I can't help it, that is just too funny that anyone could believe such a thing.

It sure is not what the Bible teaches !!

two classes of salvation? i'm arminist in nature and dont believe that. the calvinist and arminist serve the same God. i didnt know that one. so God doesnt know who will come to him or not?

 

[handy]

It is not what I am writing about.

The Bible teaches that each of us our born into one classification for salvation or the other. The reason that a few are born as predestinated, and have the right to salvation, whereas, everyone else are not, and have to come by it on their own, is because God is completely fair to everyone.

The bride of Christ are all those, out of both classifications for salvation, who are saved [make the first resurrection] at Christ's return.

Hmmm, for around 5 years I was a member of a Calvinist church, then for a number of years, member of an Armenian church and now am Lutheran, have studied the various doctrines of each, and this is the first I've ever heard of this.

"The reason that a few are born as predestinated, and have the right to salvation,"...

No Calvinist I've ever heard or read would ever say that anyone has the "right" to salvation. Quite the opposite in fact...

"See the Bible regarding predestination/foreordained/elect. See John 6:39-40. There are two classifications of people for salvation."

I've read the Bible regarding predestination/foreordained/elect. I know what John 6:39-40 says..."This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."...and still haven't ever come across the concept of two classifications of people for salvation.

Perhaps some corroborating texts can be supplied?

 

[Who Says]

two classes of salvation? i'm arminist in nature and dont believe that. the calvinist and arminist serve the same God. i didnt know that one. so God doesnt know who will come to him or not?

In the same way he determines who will be punished: Ezekiel 34:11 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out."

Psalms 44:20 "If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god;
21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart."

Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Proverbs 5:21 "For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings."

Proverbs 21:2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts."

Proverbs 24:12 "If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?"

Now you show me one scripture that says any names were written in the Book of Life from BEFORE the foundation of the world?

Explain to me why the Spirit would say this if some would not be blotted out of the book of life? Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Hint: Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

So it is true then isn't it that just as he said, (Revelation 2:23) "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

 

[Nathan]

So then why do you avoid the simple question.. must a Christian have the Spirit of Christ birthed in them or not.. and then.. WHEN was the promise of the Father SENT ?

I am not avoiding any questions. I apologize if it seems like I have. Yes, Christians MUST have the Spirit inside them. That's a realatively easy fact to point out in the Bible. And the "promise" was sent(past tense) at the day of pentecost.

 

[warhorse]

I am not avoiding any questions. I apologize if it seems like I have. Yes, Christians MUST have the Spirit inside them. That's a realatively easy fact to point out in the Bible. And the "promise" was sent(past tense) at the day of pentecost.

I think you too are both right for the most part, to be a christian you must be born again, as the scripture says, but the word christian does mean one who follows christ, giving the connotation of action. Jesus said you would know them by there fruits, and we cant see there hearts, so we watch there actions.
There may be many who act but have not been reborn, they would not be saved they are acting to earn there salvation. And many who have been reborn may not look like they are saved because there actions are still inmature. the failure of discipleship in this generation, is in my opinion the reason for the falling away.

 

[Nathan]

I think you too are both right for the most part, to be a christian you must be born again, as the scripture says, but the word christian does mean one who follows christ, giving the connotation of action. Jesus said you would know them by there fruits, and we cant see there hearts, so we watch there actions.
There may be many who act but have not been reborn, they would not be saved they are acting to earn there salvation. And many who have been reborn may not look like they are saved because there actions are still inmature. the failure of discipleship in this generation, is in my opinion the reason for the falling away.

Your precisely right. I did not think that we really disagreed with each other. I just wanted to 'clarify' it. I am a man of words. Words have meanings to me. Words are almost like pictures in my head. If a word is not used in the right manner, my brain hurts....

I see it like this also warhorse. Your really spot on. The lack of discipleship has allowed people to "believe" but not really understand what they are believing. Discipleship is intense learning. I am reminded of the time and effort it took even 1st century Christians. Why would we think that it has gotten any easier?


Act 20:24-32 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Three years, day and night, and we expect the new believer to just understand all there is to know about God and His plan for us.

Wow. How selfish are we.

 

[Eventide]

I am not avoiding any questions. I apologize if it seems like I have. Yes, Christians MUST have the Spirit inside them. That's a realatively easy fact to point out in the Bible. And the "promise" was sent(past tense) at the day of pentecost.

Well then.. There it is.

 

[Watchman_2]

Actually...No; there are not two classifications of people for salvation.

Jhn 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
​

John 6:39 depicts Christ restoring corporate Israel from its fallen state at that time. Notice the impersonal "it". Further, the word "again" indicates that "it" had previously been unfallen and within God's good grace, fell, and then been restored only to fall again. This applies historically to BC Israel, but cannot apply to any individual human conceived in sin.

Only John 6:40 is about the individual believer. Notice the personal pronoun "him" (sorry ladies;)).

I took the liberty to bring forth the key points in each scripture that you are overlooking in your quote.

V. 39 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with 'restoring' corporate Israel. It states "all which he hath given me" -- not 'corporate Israel'. You make an assumption not supported by scripture.

The word 'again', in v. 39, refers to those that were already justified [foreordained]. Since they [their souls] were previously judged, those people already have the right to salvation at birth. Hence, Christ's only mission with respect to them is to not "lose" any of them.

You should take note that the clause "may have everlasting life" is used in v. 40 with respect to those with free will; however, this clause is not included in v. 39. That is because God is completely fair and those in v. 39 already earned 'everlasting life'. It is unnecessary for them to see and believe of their own volition in order to be saved.

Hence, 'again' simply means that the predestinated will be saved a second time.

V. 40 is about all that are not predestinated. See Joh. 3:16 for confirmation. Those born into the classification of 'free will' represent the souls that are to be gained in this flesh dispensation of time.

 

[Watchman_2]

Oh WoW !!!

Sorry. I did not think it was something that drastic. I was responding to just one or two of your posts which obviously did not tell the whole story.

You have fun supporting that belief friend.

I can't help it, that is just too funny that anyone could believe such a thing.

It sure is not what the Bible teaches !!

I am not sure [considering the source] whether to take that as an insult or a compliment.

Nonetheless, while you are living in your fantasy religion, take the time to ponder this -

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
​

Since the predestinated were chosen at least 13,000 years ago, how is it that you don't believe that those so chosen are not born that way in the flesh??

 

[Watchman_2]

Whut we havv hearah is ahh ;classic private interpretation , with all that usually goes with the same.

Do you ever have an argument or can one only expect to see feckless commentary from the cheap seats issued by you??

 

[Watchman_2]

This statement is oxy moronic, How could It possably be fair for God to predestine some and not others.

Very simply -- because they already earned it! That is why God is fair.

 

[Watchman_2]

Hmmm, for around 5 years I was a member of a Calvinist church, then for a number of years, member of an Armenian church and now am Lutheran, have studied the various doctrines of each, and this is the first I've ever heard of this.

"The reason that a few are born as predestinated, and have the right to salvation,"...

No Calvinist I've ever heard or read would ever say that anyone has the "right" to salvation. Quite the opposite in fact...

"See the Bible regarding predestination/foreordained/elect. See John 6:39-40. There are two classifications of people for salvation."

I've read the Bible regarding predestination/foreordained/elect. I know what John 6:39-40 says..."This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."...and still haven't ever come across the concept of two classifications of people for salvation.

Perhaps some corroborating texts can be supplied?

See above post to Sinthesis. Perhaps that will help clear things up for you.

Christ's mission is two-fold. There is a group to not 'lose' [v. 39]. And, there is a group to gain -- those with free will [v.40]. Hence, those predestinated ones [v. 39] are to be saved again. The rest who have free will [v. 40] are to be gained for everlasting life.

It has been my experience that most, if not all, of the folks who disagree with, or do not understand, what the Bible teaches here do so as a result of a fundamental lack of understanding of Bible contextual basics. One has to place our flesh existence in the context of overall time and purpose in order to understand predestination v. free will and endtime eschatology.

 

[Hitch]

See above post to Sinthesis. Perhaps that will help clear things up for you.

Christ's mission is two-fold. There is a group to not 'lose' [v. 39]. And, there is a group to gain -- those with free will [v.40]. Hence, those predestinated ones [v. 39] are to be saved again. The rest who have free will [v. 40] are to be gained for everlasting life.

It has been my experience that most, if not all, of the folks who disagree with, or do not understand, what the Bible teaches here do so as a result of a fundamental lack of understanding of Bible contextual basics. One has to place our flesh existence in the context of overall time and purpose in order to understand predestination v. free will and endtime eschatology.

Ya know Watch ,every time you carry on that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant of bible basics, you dig your hole deeper. If this nonsense were 'bible basics' certainly you could quote support from many of the sources amassed over 2,000 years of christian history. You cant.

 

[handy]

"Corroborating texts" wasn't meant to just repeat John 6:39-40....not when the two verses are more simply interpreted as Christ emphatically stating that He will lose nothing of what the Father gives Him and that all who believe in Him will be raised up.

So, I ask again for corroborating texts...other places in the Scriptures that show more clearly these "two classifications" of salvation. If there are no corroborating texts that can be interpreted to show two classifications of salvation, then I'll probably just write your intriguing theory off as your own personal misunderstanding of John 6:39-40. But, if you can show that this dichotomy of salvation is supported by other texts, then I find it interesting to say the least.

 

[Watchman_2]

Ya know Watch ,every time you carry on that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant of bible basics, you dig your hole deeper. If this nonsense were 'bible basics' certainly you could quote support from many of the sources amassed over 2,000 years of christian history. You cant.

You say that because you are one of those that are so obviously deficient in Bible basics. If you actually had a Bible education, you wouldn't have to sit in the cheap seats spewing forth your feckless commentary against anyone that establishes a position contrary to your tradition-of-man religion.

 

[handy]

Ya know Watch ,every time you carry on that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant of bible basics, you dig your hole deeper. If this nonsense were 'bible basics' certainly you could quote support from many of the sources amassed over 2,000 years of christian history. You cant.

I have to agree with this...

If you're right Watchman, you've stumbled upon a "truth" that has eluded the Body of Christ for two millennia, one that will forever resolve the conflict between predestination and free will. That in of itself makes it a bit suspect. So, rather than go on about how ignorant we all are (are we to conversely be impressed with how learned you are?) show that this is indeed a spiritual truth from God's word by supplying supporting texts that we can examine. If it's true, the Bible will support it.

 

[Hitch]

You say that because you are one of those that are so obviously deficient in Bible basics. If you actually had a Bible education, you wouldn't have to sit in the cheap seats spewing forth your feckless commentary against anyone that establishes a position contrary to your tradition-of-man religion.

How about you man up and tell us who your getting this from?:biglol

Why hide your sources?

 

[warhorse]

Very simply -- because they already earned it! That is why God is fair.

Earned salvation before they were born. roflmbo