What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

[Nathan]

I think it makes perfect sense that the Apostles would be given the Spirit beforehand, knowing that the church of God is built upon that very foundation.. the Apostles and the prophets.. and of course the Lord Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone..

And we can't forget John 7 where we're plainly told that the Spirit had not yet been given as Christ was not yet glorified in His death, burial, and resurrection.

That's the true definition of the Christian isn't it.. one who has been baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit of God, after they trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after they believed..?

So imo, the foundation was laid, and God began building it on Pentecost, 50 days after God's Passover Lamb was slain for the sin of the world.

Its funny, this thread is all over the place. Nothing negative toward you, I have been apart of it, but I had to chuckle when I thought about this.

But the reason I wanted to respond is to derail the thread even more...

But seriously, Christ never said that He would have "Christians". He always talked about Disciples.

The Church(called out ones) is made of disciples(ones who study after a Master) and they are "called" Christians(ones who follow Christ or Christ-like).

But the whole point is that disciples are ones who follow Christ. And there were 12 who had been following Him VERY closely for a while, and then 11 after His death.

Christ prayed that Peter would "return". That means that he was already "there". Make sense? So what we think of sometimes as "Christians" is simply a title, albeit it is a true one, and should be simply looked at it as one. The main focus is discipleship which is the heart of Christ as seen throughout His ministry and even His departing words.

Hope this helps and does not confuse things anymore.

 

[Eventide]

Its funny, this thread is all over the place. Nothing negative toward you, I have been apart of it, but I had to chuckle when I thought about this.

But the reason I wanted to respond is to derail the thread even more...

But seriously, Christ never said that He would have "Christians". He always talked about Disciples.

The Church(called out ones) is made of disciples(ones who study after a Master) and they are "called" Christians(ones who follow Christ or Christ-like).

But the whole point is that disciples are ones who follow Christ. And there were 12 who had been following Him VERY closely for a while, and then 11 after His death.

Christ prayed that Peter would "return". That means that he was already "there". Make sense? So what we think of sometimes as "Christians" is simply a title, albeit it is a true one, and should be simply looked at it as one. The main focus is discipleship which is the heart of Christ as seen throughout His ministry and even His departing words.

Hope this helps and does not confuse things anymore.

I would agree and say there's no doubt that these Jewish men were followers of Jesus of Nazareth.. although at the same time I can see a massive distinction between Judaism and the Law of Moses which was in effect at that time as compared to His building the church of God based upon confessing Him as the Son of God.

Allow me ask again, isn't the literal biblical definition of a Christian one who is IN CHRIST, and has been miraculously baptized into His Body by the power of the Holy Spirit, who was sent to testify of Christ ? IMO you can't just say that a person is a Christian because they follow Christ.. because many may follow His teaching and yet not be baptized into that one body by His Spirit..

Yea, Nea ?

As for the thread being all over the place.. no matter to me.. I hope it doesn't bother anyone else.. we could always start a thread on this if we want to, right ?

 

[Watchman_2]

See post #162 for what I meant. I figured there would be confusion in the first asking of the question.

Yeah -- I didn't see that #162 was pertaining to something that I wrote.

As I previously wrote, there are two clasifications for salvation -- the predestinated/elect and those with free will only.

This is a Bible basic. So, I am not sure what you are questioning?

 

[Nathan]

Yeah -- I didn't see that #162 was pertaining to something that I wrote.

As I previously wrote, there are two clasifications for salvation -- the predestinated/elect and those with free will only.

This is a Bible basic. So, I am not sure what you are questioning?

What do you mean by "classifications"? As in 'ways' of salvation? 'Methods' of salvation? This is how the dictionary defines classification let me know if this is what you mean.

1.
the act of classifying.
2.
the result of classifying or being classified.
3.
one of the groups or classes into which things may be or have been classified.

So do you believe that there are ones who are not elected for salvation but only obtain it from free will? And do you believe that there are some who are elected for salvation, but have no free will?

 

[Nathan]

I would agree and say there's no doubt that these Jewish men were followers of Jesus of Nazareth.. although at the same time I can see a massive distinction between Judaism and the Law of Moses which was in effect at that time as compared to His building the church of God based upon confessing Him as the Son of God.

Allow me ask again, isn't the literal biblical definition of a Christian one who is IN CHRIST, and has been miraculously baptized into His Body by the power of the Holy Spirit, who was sent to testify of Christ ? IMO you can't just say that a person is a Christian because they follow Christ.. because many may follow His teaching and yet not be baptized into that one body by His Spirit..

Yea, Nea ?

As for the thread being all over the place.. no matter to me.. I hope it doesn't bother anyone else.. we could always start a thread on this if we want to, right ?

You know, I am not sure. I know that the first time "Christian" is used is when the disciples were called that from non-believers. So based on that, then yes, true Christians are DEFINITELY ones that are in Christ. We have come to the point where we believe that a Christian is just someone who says they are in Christ.

But to be in Christ you must follow Him. And in order to follow Him, you must do as He did. So its like a "tier" system. An apple tree is not an apple tree because it has apples. It has apples because its an apple tree. How do we know this? Because take away the apples and its still an apple tree.

So Christians are Christians because they follow Christ. But the only reason the follow Christ is because they are His Disciples.

Many think that they follow Christ, but in reality if they would only step back to look at their discipleship, they would realize that they only 'act' like they are following Christ and really are not.

Hey, I am good for being all over the place too. As long as the OP is fine with it.

 

[Watchman_2]

What do you mean by "classifications"? As in 'ways' of salvation? 'Methods' of salvation? This is how the dictionary defines classification let me know if this is what you mean.

1.
the act of classifying.
2.
the result of classifying or being classified.
3.
one of the groups or classes into which things may be or have been classified.

So do you believe that there are ones who are not elected for salvation but only obtain it from free will? And do you believe that there are some who are elected for salvation, but have no free will?

One is born into one of two classifications for salvation -- the predestinated/elect or those with free will only. So, there are those [predestinated/elect] that can only lose their salvation because they were born with the right to salvation. Then, there are the rest [free will only] that are born without any right to salvation and must come by it in the flesh or in spiritual bodies during Christ's millennial reign.

It really isn't two methods of salvation, as Christ is the only means to it. But, it represents two mutually exclusive routes for people to obtain salvation, based upon their soul's status at birth. It is one of those Bible basic facts necessary to understand the Bible and eschatology.

 

[Hitch]

One is born into one of two classifications for salvation -- the predestinated/elect or those with free will only. So, there are those [predestinated/elect] that can only lose their salvation because they were born with the right to salvation. Then, there are the rest [free will only] that are born without any right to salvation and must come by it in the flesh or in spiritual bodies during Christ's millennial reign.

It really isn't two methods of salvation, as Christ is the only means to it. But, it represents two mutually exclusive routes for people to obtain salvation, based upon their soul's status at birth. It is one of those Bible basic facts necessary to understand the Bible and eschatology.

You need hip waders for this one.

 

[Watchman_2]

You need hip waders for this one.

There are many that have not learned Bible basics. So, I am not surprised by your feckless commentary.

 

[Hitch]

There are many that have not learned Bible basics. So, I am not surprised by your feckless commentary.

Since this is a basic bible fact you should have hundreds if not thousands of clear unmistakable references.

Can you show me one?

 

[Watchman_2]

Since this is a basic bible fact you should have hundreds if not thousands of clear unmistakable references.

Can you show me one?

No problem. See John 6:39-40.

 

[Sam21]

I would agree and say there's no doubt that these Jewish men were followers of Jesus of Nazareth.. although at the same time I can see a massive distinction between Judaism and the Law of Moses which was in effect at that time as compared to His building the church of God based upon confessing Him as the Son of God.

Allow me ask again, isn't the literal biblical definition of a Christian one who is IN CHRIST, and has been miraculously baptized into His Body by the power of the Holy Spirit, who was sent to testify of Christ ? IMO you can't just say that a person is a Christian because they follow Christ.. because many may follow His teaching and yet not be baptized into that one body by His Spirit..

Yea, Nea ?

As for the thread being all over the place.. no matter to me.. I hope it doesn't bother anyone else.. we could always start a thread on this if we want to, right ?

Jesus said that the law and the prophets were UNTIL John, from the baptism of John onward Israel was under something different,remember John was sent to baptize people as a sign that they had repented and by repenting could be accepted by God,none of that was under the law.

 

[Hitch]

No problem. See John 6:39-40.

3

9And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is no support here for your ridiculous claim copied below;

Originally Posted by Watchman_2 One is born into one of two classifications for salvation -- the predestinated/elect or those with free will only. So, there are those [predestinated/elect] that can only lose their salvation because they were born with the right to salvation. Then, there are the rest [free will only] that are born without any right to salvation and must come by it in the flesh or in spiritual bodies during Christ's millennial reign.

It really isn't two methods of salvation, as Christ is the only means to it. But, it represents two mutually exclusive routes for people to obtain salvation, based upon their soul's status at birth. It is one of those Bible basic facts necessary to understand the Bible and eschatology.

Care to try again?

 

[Watchman_2]

3



There is no support here for your ridiculous claim copied below;


Care to try again?

Well, you must think that Christ had a speech impediment. In 6:39, He describes the predestinated/elect. In 6:40, He describes those with free will only.

Hence, by way of Christ's own words, there is proof of the two classifications of people for salvation.

 

[Sam21]

No problem. See John 6:39-40.

John 6:40Everyone who believes on the Son may have eternal life. It sure looks as if "everyone" means everyone, the test is whether or not the person believes.

 

[Sam21]

Well, you must think that Christ had a speech impediment. In 6:39, He describes the predestinated/elect. In 6:40, He describes those with free will only.

Hence, by way of Christ's own words, there is proof of the two classifications of people for salvation.

The context does not make two classifications of people,Jesus is speaking of His present disciples and any others that may become disciples...one group united by faith in Christ,all disciples of Christ.

 

[Hitch]

Well, you must think that Christ had a speech impediment. In 6:39, He describes the predestinated/elect. In 6:40, He describes those with free will only.

Hence, by way of Christ's own words, there is proof of the two classifications of people for salvation.

Interesting all the Reformers missed such a basic bible fact2 . Are you making this up as you go or did some whack job teach it to you?

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

 

[Watchman_2]

John 6:40Everyone who believes on the Son may have eternal life. It sure looks as if "everyone" means everyone, the test is whether or not the person believes.

Unless you think that Christ had a speech impediment, then you would have to accept that there are two classifications for salvation. In v. 39, He describes a grouping 'to lose' salvation. They are the ones given to Christ by God. They are the predestinated/elect. In v. 40, He describes those that seeth Him [as the only begotten Son of God --John 3:16] and believeth. They are the ones to gain in this flesh dispensation of time.

It is an easy read -- two mutually exclusive classifications for salvation.

 

[Watchman_2]

Interesting all the Reformers missed such a basic bible fact2 . Are you making this up as you go or did some whack job teach it to you?

Gee -- I did not know that John was a whack job. Good luck explaining that one to God!

If you were not Biblically illiterate and if you possessed a modicum of reading comprehension skills, you would know that I am correct.

 

[Hitch]

Gee -- I did not know that John was a whack job. Good luck explaining that one to God!

If you were not Biblically illiterate and if you possessed a modicum of reading comprehension skills, you would know that I am correct.

So which is it, are you making this up or did some whack sell it to you?

Hmmmm it just occurred to me that you probably dont know.

How about this; Can you name any one else who holds this view?

 

[Nathan]

I'm going to have to google this one. New to me. It's amazing what people come up with these days.