What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[JLB]

John 6:64, 70-71 (LEB) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. ...
Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.

Was Judas one of the twelve, when Jesus spoke these words?
Did Judas Iscariot, hear His Voice, and follow Him, and did Jesus know him ?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus and John present a different case than your closed case.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Judas heard the voice of Jesus and believed in Him and therefore followed Him for 3 1/2 years, was tempted to turn away from Christ for 30 pieces of silver, and to avoid persecution from the Pharisee's, and so fell away.

According to OSAS, the moment he believed, and thereby began to follow Jesus, he was saved permanently and was given eternal life permanently.

Is there something more than believe, to being saved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

why do you keep reposting this same scripture ?

I re-posted it from the King James version.

It was a comparison.

 

[JLB]

Later on after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
He believed for awhile, then fell away.

This is an assumption, not based on any facts. I presented a verse that included Judas himself in which the verse spoke about those disciples who DID NOT BELIEVE.

What particular part of my post is an assumption that says...
Later on after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
He believed for awhile, then fell away.

• Judas heard His Voice and followed Him.

Are you saying Judas didn't follow Him?
Are you saying Judas didn't hear His Voice?

• Later on after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

Are you saying Judas wasn't with Jesus for 3 1/2 years?
Are you saying Judas wasn't one of the twelve?
Are you saying Judas didn't betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver?
Are you saying Judas didn't believe for a while?
Are you saying Jesus didn't follow Jesus?

Please be specific about what part of my post, that you call assumption, that you don't agree with.


JLB

 

[chessman]

In the analogy of the building (1 Corinthians 3:11 NASB), the foundation is Christ himself, ...

Modern Christians (at least in America) often (if not exclusively) think and use "Christ" as if "Christ" was Jesus' last name. It's not. It means Messiah and all the doctrine that goes along with that meaning (and I'm sure you know this already). And Messiah is how the Corinthians understood the word (not as His last name as you seem to in the opening sentence of this post). I have to watch myself on this error sometimes as well. But the point is, when Paul says "For no one is able to lay another foundation than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ ... he means the doctrine/message/gospel teaching, not merely the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Sure, "Jesus Christ" includes the person (the God-man) but it also includes a whole bunch of other teaching/doctrine/Scripture as well.

Whoever, once upon a time, chose a chapter break at 3:1 in this particular place within Paul's 1st letter to the church in Corith, did a pretty good job, IMO. Although like all of Paul's writings, it's hard to find breathing marks, much less chapter breaks. Chapter 3 does begin with "AND". So if you're gonna break up the letter/flow, that's about as good a place to do it as there is. It beats chapter breaks that begin in the middle of a Greek sentence, anyway. Or ones that begin with "Therefore". but my point is Paul clearly discourses throughout Chapter 3 about the things people saying/teaching which are adding to his foundational message.

Paul "planted" Jesus Christ there. Meaning he delivered a message to them about the God-Man named Jesus who is the Messiah of the OT and who suffered, died and resurrected Himself for the sins of the world (i.e. Jesus Christ, in short). This message is the foundational Christian doctrine Paul speaks about here and throughout the letter (beginning to end).

1 Cor 3:1 (LEB) And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual people, but as to fleshly people, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you were not yet able to eat it.
​

Obviously, Paul doesn't mean Jesus=milk. But he clearly means the basic Gospel message (all that necessary to save you) is simple and easy to understand. He's using an analogy of baby food to describe what he planted there (just like he does with a building, a field, a Temple, etc.). But the point is, it's a message about a person. Not a person about a message.

​

 

[chessman]

Was Judas one of the twelve, when Jesus spoke these words?
Did Judas Iscariot, hear His Voice, and follow Him, and did Jesus know him ?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


JLB

None of your questions about John 10 or Luke 8:13 (no matter their answer) over-rule the statements Jesus and John made in John 6 concerning Judas not believing in Jesus as his saviour. Neither Judas' non-belief or his future betrayal caught Jesus by surprise. Yes Jesus 'knew' Judas and Judas 'knew' Jesus. Just as Jesus 'knew' Satan' and Satan 'knew' Jesus. And they all 'heard' each other. So?

John 6:64-71 is clear enough for me to understand that your opinion that Judas provides an example of someone that lost his salvation is in error.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Jude 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear - hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

The work that is building God's kingdom will not be burned. It is a paradox statement. Anything and anyone working for darkness - burned, but also working for things that are physical (flesh) can be burned.

 

[MarkT]

It's very simple.

An individual person is a [part of the] Temple, and is being built into the collective whole Temple of God.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22


Peter describes this as "living stones" being built into a spiritual house.

... you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5


Please don't disregard what is plainly written, in the scripture reference text of the OP.

... If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.

It doesn't say God will destroy "it".

It says God will destroy him.

"him"refers to a person, who is a "part" of the whole collective Temple that is being being added to as each person who comes to Christ is fitted into place.


JLB

Where does it say anything about being added to the temple? I see where he says being joined together (Jew and Gentile being joined together). Where does he say anything about adding people? He says, 'Christ being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.' I take it the church is being conformed to the Lord, and so the church is growing into a holy temple. And when he says, 'grows' he is talking about growth in the Spirit. Growing in maturity. Growing in the word of God. Growing in the knowledge of God. He said, 'he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight' Eph. 1:9. Again we see wisdom, knowledge and insight (or understanding), the same three things he talks about in his letter to the Corinthians which he calls gold, silver and precious jewels; the same things he warns each man should build with if he builds on the foundation Christ.

 

[JLB]

Where does it say anything about being added to the temple? I see where he says being joined together (Jew and Gentile being joined together). Where does he say anything about adding people?

So every-time I answer your question with scripture, you just keep on asking more and more questions, without acknowledging that you understand my answer, with the corresponding scripture?

Below is your question: Where does it say his temple is people?

JLB This is the passage we are discussing. You can't just post it without any understanding. My understanding is that each man, each member of the church, is a temple if the Spirit of God dwells in him.

Paul said,
1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 1 Cor. 6:19

What do you think Paul is saying?

Where does it say his temple is people?

Here is my answer. 1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. KJV

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. NKJV


Now before I continue to answer more questions from you, please acknowledge that you understand that the Temple is people.

Do you understand that the Temple is people?

Yes or No ?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where does it say anything about being added to the temple? I see where he says being joined together (Jew and Gentile being joined together). Where does he say anything about adding people? He says, 'Christ being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.' I take it the church is being conformed to the Lord, and so the church is growing into a holy temple. And when he says, 'grows' he is talking about growth in the Spirit. Growing in maturity. Growing in the word of God. Growing in the knowledge of God. He said, 'he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight' Eph. 1:9. Again we see wisdom, knowledge and insight (or understanding), the same three things he talks about in his letter to the Corinthians which he calls gold, silver and precious jewels; the same things he warns each man should build with if he builds on the foundation Christ.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22


Each of us as "living stones" are "part" of, or "members of" the collective household of God.

As someone is born again, they are now added to this building, as a "living stone", and are built together with others, into a dwelling place of God.

Paul uses this idiomatic analogy to teach us that we all have our place in which we fit together with each other in this Temple.




Built together - Strong's G4925 - synoikodomeō

to build together

1. to build together or with others
2. to put together or construct by building, out of several things to build up one whole
   1. of the human body
      

JLB

 

[MarkT]

In the analogy of the building (1 Corinthians 3:11 NASB), the foundation is Christ himself, and the apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:20 NASB). Built on top of that are the rest of us (1 Peter 2:5 NASB, Ephesians 2:21-22 NASB). Paul is using an analogy here which is explained for us in the scriptures themselves. What Paul says fits perfectly with that analogy. The analogy of wisdom being that which is built on the foundation of the learning about Christ may fit, but it does not fit well with the context.

Since the explanation I offer is fully and directly supported by scripture there is no reason to reject it. But I know that is difficult when centuries of theologians have been teaching and passing down their popular interpretation of the passage in our seminaries, propagating it in the church. And most (and I do mean most) Christians simply do not read their Bible to know of the better fitting meaning of the analogy that is explained right in the Bible itself, and almost without exception in cases like this insist on staying with what they have been taught. I think there is this subconscious fear in the church of thinking that the leadership of the church has gotten some things wrong. We should not be surprised at this at all. The history of Israel should teach us how very, very possible that is for that to happen in God's household. But if every Christian read their Bible's they would eventually know this.

No.The foundation is the word of God. That's the foundation of everything. It's what we build our hope on. It's eternal life to those who hear it. Paul laid the foundation, 'Jesus Christ and him crucified.' So he said in 1 Cor. 2:2 You can use expressions like built on the apostles and the prophets if you understand what is being said. In the past God spoke to men through the prophets. The apostles were sent to preach the word of God ie. the good news, Jesus Christ.

I agree with your sentiments. But I am not a theologian, and I don't follow them.

 

[JLB]

None of your questions about John 10 or Luke 8:13 (no matter their answer) over-rule the statements Jesus and John made in John 6 concerning Judas not believing in Jesus as his saviour.

No scripture over rules another but must be reconciled.

What you are wanting to do is disregard other scriptures, and only focus on the ones that seem to validate your OSAS doctrine, which has been the case from the beginning.

Citing Romans 6:23 as saying eternal life is a gift of God, is just one example, when that is only half of what Romans 6:23 says, and the half you quote is incomplete.

Here is what the half of Romans 6:23 says... but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life in Christ Jesus.

As long as your "in" Christ Jesus, you have eternal life.


Jesus Himself teaches that we are to abide, remain connected in relationship to Him, as a branch is connected to the Vine or - be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

People who come to be IN CHRIST, must remain IN CHRIST, or be thrown into the fire and burned.

Which is why you quote only half the scripture and even misquote the half you do use.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You never quote that part of the scripture.


Likewise now you are attempting by the same rule, to disregard the rest of the scriptures that pertain to Judas, claiming that your scriptures over rule the other scriptures.

This is exactly the same thing you do when other scriptures from Jesus and Paul and Peter are brought into the discussion.


Your whole answer to all the scriptures that plainly show us the Christians can indeed lose their place in God's kingdom is;

That's impossible, because eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God. Romans 6:23 Romans 11:29

When these scriptures are examined in context, it teaches a much different doctrine that the one you teach, with half scriptures misquoted, and out of context.

What particular part of my post do you disagree with?

Later on after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
He believed for awhile, then fell away.

• Judas heard His Voice and followed Him.

Are you saying Judas didn't follow Him?
Are you saying Judas didn't hear His Voice?

• Later on after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

Are you saying Judas wasn't with Jesus for 3 1/2 years?
Are you saying Judas wasn't one of the twelve?
Are you saying Judas didn't betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver?
Are you saying Judas didn't believe for a while?
Are you saying Jesus didn't follow Jesus?

Please be specific about what part of my post, that you don't agree with.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22


Each of us as "living stones" are "part" of, or "members of" the collective household of God.

As someone is born again, they are now added to this building, as a "living stone", and are built together with others, into a dwelling place of God.

Paul uses this idiomatic analogy to teach us that we all have our place in which we fit together with each other in this Temple.




Built together - Strong's G4925 - synoikodomeō

to build together

1. 
   
   
   • to build together or with others
   • to put together or construct by building, out of several things to build up one whole
     1. of the human body

JLB

Again, you're just reposting the same passage. The RSV says, "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." Eph. 2:11-22

So Paul is speaking of the Gentiles being built into the commonwealth of Israel. They are now members of the household of God in Christ Jesus being made one by the word which was preached to them by the apostles and the prophets. The whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple - a house of God. I agree we are living stones. But I don't see added.

 

[MarkT]

So every-time I answer your question with scripture, you just keep on asking more and more questions, without acknowledging that you understand my answer, with the corresponding scripture?

Below is your question: Where does it say his temple is people?





Here is my answer. 1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. KJV

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. NKJV


Now before I continue to answer more questions from you, please acknowledge that you understand that the Temple is people.

Do you understand that the Temple is people?

Yes or No ?


JLB

No.

You keep reposting the same passages. Where does it say, "the temple are people"? You have it backwards. A man can be a temple if the Spirit is in him. And a church having apostles and prophets and teachers who are sent by God can be a temple if the church is Spirit filled.

I'm referring to 1 Cor. 3:10-15 only and nothing else. Where do you see the word added? I agree souls are added
Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

But how is 1 Cor. 3:10-15 talking about adding souls?

 

[FreeGrace]

So then you agree that the people in this verse were saved, when they believed?

Everyone already knows that I believe that they were saved when they believed. btw, from lots of other Scripture, already provided, when they believed, they RECEIVED the irrevocable gift from God of eternal life.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
JLB

What is quite clear is that the verse does NOT teach that those who fall away from the faith lose salvation. That would be an assumption, because the idea is not taught or communicated anywhere in Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Where did Paul unambiguously exclude the gift of eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable?"

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

No, this verse says nothing about revoking God's gift of eternal life. Further, there is no context between 1 Cor 15 and Romans. 1 cor 15 doesn't mention any gifts. Nor does it mention that eternal life is revocable, or losable, or any other wording to indicate becoming UN-saved.

I've already explained that the first phrase in v.2, "by which also you are saved" is connected to the past phrase, "unless you believed in vain". And no one has yet refuted my explanation.

Paul's point here is that one IS saved UNLESS they have believed "in vain", meaning "without reason". Which I've explained. It means to believe without a purpose. And the ONLY purpose required for saving faith is to believe in Christ for salvation. Believing in Christ for any other reason is "in vain", or without reason.

Because it's UN-reasonable to believe in Christ for:
a better job
a bigger house
better health
more money
a promotion
more friends

Believing in Christ for any of these, or any other reason, apart from salvation from hell, is believing in vain, which is what the current "prosperity gospel" preachers are preaching.

A person never having believed for real in the first place (if that's how you interpret 'unless you believed in vain') doesn't change the fact that, for the one who really does believe, they are (presently) saved IF they (presently) hold fast the word he preached to them.

No, I have just once again explained what it means to believe "in vain".

The author of Hebrews, and John say the same thing. To say that ex-believers are still holding fast the word they heard and so still have the gift of salvation/ eternal life completely and utterly contradicts the passage above.

No one has said that ex-believers are still holding fast to the word. That's not in dispute, as far as I'm concerned.

The whole point is that when one believes in Christ for salvation, they ARE saved, and they HAVE God's gift of eternal life. Which is an irrevocable gift. And Jesus Himself said that those who have "entered through Him" per Jn 10:9 ARE saved. That means they HAVE eternal life.

So when He then said that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH in 10:28, that means that those who have been given the gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

How can one "perish" in hell if Jesus said they they WILL NEVER PERISH??

 

[FreeGrace]

Was Judas one of the twelve, when Jesus spoke these words?
Did Judas Iscariot, hear His Voice, and follow Him, and did Jesus know him ?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


JLB

Judas never followed Jesus in the obvious sense of being obedient to Him. He was a thief. Did Jesus order him to steal from the money bag? No.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said this:
"Later on after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
He believed for awhile, then fell away."

FreeGrace said: ↑
This is an assumption, not based on any facts. I presented a verse that included Judas himself in which the verse spoke about those disciples who DID NOT BELIEVE.

What particular part of my post is an assumption that says...
Later on after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
He believed for awhile, then fell away.

This part: "he believed for awhile". Where does the Bible say that he ever believed. I gave a verse that clearly lumped Judas with other disciples who never believed in Jesus: Jn 6:64 - “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

Are you saying Judas wasn't with Jesus for 3 1/2 years?
Are you saying Judas wasn't one of the twelve?
Are you saying Judas didn't betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver?
Are you saying Judas didn't believe for a while?
Are you saying Jesus didn't follow Jesus?

I don't believe that any of this is relevant to the issue of whether Judas ever believed. And...none of these statements indicate that he ever believed. And there are NO verses that tell us that he believed. None.

 

[JLB]

No.

You keep reposting the same passages. Where does it say, "the temple are people"? You have it backwards. A man can be a temple if the Spirit is in him. And a church having apostles and prophets and teachers who are sent by God can be a temple if the church is Spirit filled.

I'm referring to 1 Cor. 3:10-15 only and nothing else. Where do you see the word added? I agree souls are added
Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

But how is 1 Cor. 3:10-15 talking about adding souls?

Well, all I can say is, if you can't see that the Temple spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 is people then there is nothing else for you and I to discuss.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

When you can understand and acknowledge that the Temple spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3;16-17 is people, believers in Christ, then we can continue.

Otherwise we will just be arguing.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Everyone already knows that I believe that they were saved when they believed. btw, from lots of other Scripture, already provided, when they believed, they RECEIVED the irrevocable gift from God of eternal life.

There is no such scripture in the bible, as you have shown.

Since you won't provide a scripture, it's proof there is none.

No, this verse says nothing about revoking God's gift of eternal life.

No such scripture in the bible as God's irrevocable gift of eternal life.

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord have eternal life.

Those who are in Christ Jesus then are removed from Him, no longer have eternal life, because they are no longer in Him.


JLB