What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[MarkT]

You see, the true church is made of precious materials, not hay, wood, and stubble. If ministers of the gospel do not teach, preach, and encourage, so as to build people on the foundation of the Building of God made of precious stones and metals then what they built will be purged away in the final cleansing of God's kingdom and they will have run their ministerial race in vain and will have nothing to exult over in the life to come:

We're talking about building on the foundation of Jesus Christ, that is to say, we are talking about building on the rock. Jesus said, 'On this rock (what was revealed to Peter) I will build my church.' Note, he said, "I will build", not 'you will build'. The 'rock' is the testimony of God, Jesus, "the Christ, the Son of the living God".

This is the foundation Paul laid, ref. "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." ! Cor. 2:2, and Paul is talking about building on that foundation. The other man who was building on that foundation was Apollos. Then Paul addresses the church when he says, "Let each man take care how he builds on it." 1 Cor. 3:10 The idea here is spiritual men receive spiritual gifts to interpret spiritual truths. So Paul is saying to each man, be careful how you build on the truth. The proverb is 'For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.' Proverbs 2:6 And Paul uses gold, silver and precious stones to represent knowledge, insight and wisdom, what comes from the mouth of the LORD, Jesus. So he is talking about the teachings of our Lord Jesus. Wood, hay and stubble represent the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of this world, what Paul said, 'for the wisdom of this world is folly with God.' 1 Cor. 3:19 So be careful what you build with. If your understanding comes from God, the fire will test it and you will receive a reward. If your understanding is not of God, the fire will destroy it.

 

[MarkT]

I know one thing, if I were to teach others that they could abandon their faith in Christ and begin to rely on the law, or Allah, or whatever for justification, and that they would still be saved I would certainly not have the reward of those who followed that message with me in heaven as a reward for me. Add to that, it would probably get me destroyed because I destroyed the temple of God.



"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)

I don't know that they teach others to do those things Jethro. I would be more wary of accusing my brethren falsely. Just because they believe they can not lose their salvation, are you going to condemn them for that? How does knowing you can lose your salvation help strengthen your faith?

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"A simple question: where does the Bible specifically teach that believers are accountable for the actions of others?"

1 John 2:25 KJV

I don't know how this verse answers my question.

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life 1 Jn 2:25

Please clarify.

 

[FreeGrace]

You don't even understand the argument.

Maybe it's incoherent.

The argument is, the minister of the gospel who has nothing to show for his labor in the field/building of God because of sloth, or an incorrect message that can't save, will not have any crown of work completed as the result of his labor for him to exult in at the resurrection

Thanks for finally making the argument understandable. And I agree completely. Pastors and teachers who teach false doctrine sure won't be rewarded for it.

Even if you insist that 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 NASB isn't about all that, it's undeniable from the passages above that other people, if they make it through the final fiery Judgement, will indeed be your crown and glory, and you theirs. It's impossible to honestly make those passages 'go away'. It's a fact.

Since this has never been my position, I agree with this.

Now that isn't the only reward there is waiting for the believer at the end of the age, but it clearly is one of them, unless, of course, your work fails to make it through the Judgment and gets burned up instead.

Which is what 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 is about. Whether one's efforts will be rewarded or burned up.

Then you will have no work, no people, to be your crown in the next life. Pretty simple stuff, plainly spelled out in our Bibles, but, yeah, I know, it's not taught in our churches, so people automatically resist it ahead of time and have a hard time believing what they are reading with their own eyes in their very own Bible.

I agree that the subject of rewards and warning about loss of rewards isn't being taught or emphasized.

But I'm curious about how one who holds to LOS doctrine views warnings as LOS rather than loss of rewards.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 Corinthians isn't about believers being accountable for other's actions.

I've always known that. But the argument presented has been so murky that it sure seemed to be the argument.

You have no answer for this plain scripture, so you just ask an irrelevant question, that doesn't pertain to the thread of the topic.

Those who read my posts already know that I do have an answer. In fact, what has just been clarified only supports what I've been saying all along about the warning passages of Scripture. They are warnings about loss of reward, not salvation. And 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 clearly teach that.

 

[FreeGrace]

I know one thing, if I were to teach others that they could abandon their faith in Christ and begin to rely on the law, or Allah, or whatever for justification, and that they would still be saved I would certainly not have the reward of those who followed that message with me in heaven as a reward for me. Add to that, it would probably get me destroyed because I destroyed the temple of God.

Who "teaches" this?? What the Bible clearly does teach is that salvation is permanent. Which is why Paul repeatedly encouraged believers to "keep the faith". For reward and avoid God's discipline, which can include everything from weakness, sickness, and physical death from 1 Cor 11:30.

For some totally unknown reason, the LOS side keeps emphasizing the wrong side. ES is about what God has done for the believer. LOS keeps looking for the worst possible scenario as a reason why ES cannot be true.

All in the face of clear verses that teach that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Or Jesus' promise that those He gives eternal life to will never perish.

Given these facts from Scripture, LOS cannot be true. Instead, the warning passages about loss of reward.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately their are some who get saved and baptized, and even lead many souls into the kingdom, but become bitter and hard hearted, because they blame God for the loss of a child, or a wife who ran off with the deacon, and they turn from God and never come back, and end up dying in their sins, even cursing God on their death bed.

This doesn't agree with the promise of Jesus about those He gives eternal life to. He said they WILL NEVER PERISH. But your view is that they will.

I trust what Jesus said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would be more wary of accusing my brethren falsely. Just because they believe they can not lose their salvation, are you going to condemn them for that?

I condemn any message that says you can walk away from justification through Christ's blood to another source or hope of justification and you are still saved.

Which is what 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 is about. Whether one's efforts will be rewarded or burned up.

Exactly.
And the scriptures are plain as day that the reward for your efforts is that the people you minister to will be with you to exult in at the resurrection ((2 Corinthians 1:14 NASB, 1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB, Philippians 2:15-16 NASB, 2 John 1:8 KJV).

If they listened to your message, and as a result, passed through the fires of the final Judgment safely, they will be a crown of joy and exultation for you. You'll receive your reward for your labor in the building of God, which is their presence there with you. But if they don't make it through the final fire because a false teacher came along after you and led them astray into a false doctrine about Christ (example--1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB) and they took it to heart, then you obviously won't have those people you originally ministered the real gospel to with you at the resurrection for you to exult over.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, salvation is secure for those who believe. I agree completely. The matter of whether or not a believer can stop believing is the only real issue worthy of discussion in OSAS.

No, the only issue is whether one who has believed can lose salvation if they cease to believe. And the Bible is clear about those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Should be end of discussion, but for some reason, it seems Jesus' words in Jn 10:28 have no impact for some.

Not only did Paul teach that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable, but he also covered "the future" about those who are saved will not be separated from Christ's love. Rom 8:38,39 -
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, while repulsive for all who love Jesus Christ, the fact remains that there is nothing in the future that will separate the one who has believed from Christ's love.

And 1 Thess 5:4-10 shows that even those believers who "sleep", a euphemism for a lifestyle of unbelievers will be with Christ forever.

 

[FreeGrace]

I condemn any message that says you can walk away from justification through Christ's blood to another source or hope of justification and you are still saved.

Actually, Scripture teaches that since we are eternally secure, we are to demonstrate our love for Christ and "walk worthy". Eph 4:1, Col 1:10, 1 Thess 2:12. Note that none of these verses contain any warning of loss of salvation if we don't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

S is about what God has done for the believer.

So is non-OSAS. It's ALL about what God has done, and continues to do for the believer. The God given gift of faith is why salvation is an entirely gracious and unmerited thing. But that hardly means you can cast that faith aside and still have that which faith secures. You maintain the seal of God's Spirit--that is, the power of God for salvation--THROUGH FAITH. Faith is how you have the power of God keeping you for the Day of Salvation:

"4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)

Faith is what you have to have to have the protection of the power of God--the Holy Spirit--for the day of salvation that is coming. It's impossible to say that one is protected by the power of God WITHOUT faith'. That directly contradicts the passage above. If anyone tells saved people that 'gospel', and they obey it, they will not have the reward of their presence with them at the resurrection because that is a false gospel that will cause them to be burned up in the Judgment.

 

[JLB]

Those who read my posts already know that I do have an answer. In fact, what has just been clarified only supports what I've been saying all along about the warning passages of Scripture. They are warnings about loss of reward, not salvation. And 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 clearly teach that.

When one writes out the scripture and the surrounding context, it's plain to see, by all who read these post's, that your stated opinion, with a scripture reference is not founded upon the scripture but a preconceived doctrine.

Your not employing all that is written.

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

God will destroy him... is crystal clear.

• The work, as Paul has stated is the people. Are you not my work in the Lord?

Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1

• The work, the people, [saved by believing the Gospel] who are [part of] the temple that Paul is building into a holy dwelling place of God, can indeed be burned, if Paul builds into them with a weak and sub-standard man made doctrine, that are not of Christ.

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15

If a person who is saved through believing the Gospel, and is part of the Temple, who then receive doctrine that is weak and sub-standard, in which they begin to live immoral lives because they have not been taught the doctrine of Christ, which came from the Apostles whom He sent, and these who begin to live immorally are now defiling those around them, then God will destroy them when the testing time begins.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17


Paul warned His his people about those who would defile the Church, and told them to put the defilers away from them for this very reason, so the corrupting influence of people who live sinful lives would not defile them.

A thorough examination of 1 Corinthians 5 reveals this principle that Paul taught to these worldly, immoral, Gentile Christians who look much like the Church in America today.

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:1-13

• If people don't heed what Paul says, and the person continues in the immoral behavior, are never repents, then the end result is they do not inherit the kingdom of God.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

• Those who inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these words on that Day.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

• Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these words on that Day.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17


14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15


JLB

 

[JLB]

No, the only issue is whether one who has believed can lose salvation if they cease to believe. And the Bible is clear about those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

No scripture.

Those who believe are given eternal life.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:25-29

The qualification of those who are given eternal life, and will never perish.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

Hear His Voice - hearing of faith
Follow Him - the obedience of faith

Eternal life is knowing Him. John 17:3 ...this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Those who know Him have eternal life.

Those who know Him for a while have eternal life for a while.

Not only did Paul teach that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable, but he also covered "the future" about those who are saved will not be separated from Christ's love. Rom 8:38,39 -
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God so loved the world.

Is the world saved, because God loved them?

Those who believe are saved. Luke 8:12

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while. Luke 8:13



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

So is non-OSAS. It's ALL about what God has done, and continues to do for the believer.

Then, His children who fail to trust in Him are cast aside. Or those children who failed to bear fruit. There's absolutely NO grace in that idea. But the Bible is full of grace.

Faith is what you have to have to have the protection of the power of God--the Holy Spirit--for the day of salvation that is coming.

I'm glad you brought up the Holy Spirit. He is a seal for those who have believed. For the day of redemption. I just cannot imagine how LOS doctrine understands Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, or 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

It's impossible to say that one is protected by the power of God WITHOUT faith'. That directly contradicts the passage above. If anyone tells saved people that 'gospel', and they obey it, they will not have the reward of their presence with them at the resurrection because that is a false gospel that will cause them to be burned up in the Judgment.

Just more assumption about what verses don't actually say. LOS doctrine is desperately dependent upon a lot of assumption in order to defend itself.

None of the warning passages even mention salvation, or loss of it. Because they aren't warning about LOS.

They warn of loss of reward.

 

[FreeGrace]

When one writes out the scripture and the surrounding context, it's plain to see, by all who read these post's, that your stated opinion, with a scripture reference is not founded upon the scripture but a preconceived doctrine.

Your not employing all that is written.

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

God will destroy him... is crystal clear.

• The work, as Paul has stated is the people. Are you not my work in the Lord?

Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1

• The work, the people, [saved by believing the Gospel] who are [part of] the temple that Paul is building into a holy dwelling place of God, can indeed be burned, if Paul builds into them with a weak and sub-standard man made doctrine, that are not of Christ.

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15

If a person who is saved through believing the Gospel, and is part of the Temple, who then receive doctrine that is weak and sub-standard, in which they begin to live immoral lives because they have not been taught the doctrine of Christ, which came from the Apostles whom He sent, and these who begin to live immorally are now defiling those around them, then God will destroy them when the testing time begins.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17


Paul warned His his people about those who would defile the Church, and told them to put the defilers away from them for this very reason, so the corrupting influence of people who live sinful lives would not defile them.

A thorough examination of 1 Corinthians 5 reveals this principle that Paul taught to these worldly, immoral, Gentile Christians who look much like the Church in America today.

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:1-13

• If people don't heed what Paul says, and the person continues in the immoral behavior, are never repents, then the end result is they do not inherit the kingdom of God.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

• Those who inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these words on that Day.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

• Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these words on that Day.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17


14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15


JLB

What is absolutely clear is that eternal life is a gift of God. And that God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 6:23, 11:29

What is absolutely clear is that Jesus says of those He gives eternal life that they WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 5:24, 10:28

What is absolutely clear is that those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

These facts refute LOS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No, the only issue is whether one who has believed can lose salvation if they cease to believe. And the Bible is clear about those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH."

No scripture.

I guess my posts are not being read. And I apologize for assuming that Jesus' comment about believers "WILL NEVER PERISH" was common knowledge in John 10:28. So here is the verse and Jesus' actual words:
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

So, who does He give eternal life to? Believers, per John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Those who believe are given eternal life. And they will NOT come into judgment. It seems some do not believe His words.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:25-29

The qualification of those who are given eternal life, and will never perish.

No, not quite. The context for who His sheep are begins in 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

Jesus used a metaphor of entering through a door for believing in Him. Such persons are saved. Those are His sheep. And sheep that have "entered through Him" WILL NEVER PERISH.

That means those who believe in Him ARE saved, and WILL NEVER PERISH.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

Hear His Voice - hearing of faith
Follow Him - the obedience of faith

Do you have any verses to back up [edited] that a sheep can become a non-sheep? If not,[edited]

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Not only did Paul teach that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable, but he also covered "the future" about those who are saved will not be separated from Christ's love. Rom 8:38,39 -
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

God so loved the world.

Is the world saved, because God loved them?

I have no idea what this has to do with what I said. [edited]

Those who believe are saved. Luke 8:12

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while. Luke 8:13
JLB

OK, I see. [edited] There are NO verses that teach that if one believes for a while they are only saved for a while.

[edited]

 

[JLB]

What is absolutely clear is that eternal life is a gift of God. And that God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 6:23, 11:29

No, its not clear, and doesn't exist, which is why you refuse to write out the scripture, and the context.

This has been pointed out to you, but you continue to ignore that the whole scripture and the context that are needed to insure we are rightly dividing the word, and applying the contextual support, that we may both learn and teach sound doctrine.

Here is what Romans 6:22-23 says.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

Paul points out that the end result of a life whose fruit is unto holiness is everlasting life, having become a slave to God.

Then he warns... the wages of sin, a sinful lifestyle [a life of practicing sin], is death.

Then he says... but the gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus.

We can not expect to have eternal life apart from Christ, who is the source of eternal life.

This is easily understood from a reading of the previous verse.... But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

However, when we go back just a little further, this understanding is further expounded for all who are willing to read and believe what Paul said.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


You is clear as it refers to the Christians whom Paul was addressing.

Those who practice sin, and become a slave to sin, will in the end receive the wages of eternal death.

Those who practice righteousness, and become a slave unto God, will in the end receive everlasting life, which is a gift from God.


Here are both scriptures, you keep referring to and try to put half of one together with half of the other, to attempt to form your doctrine.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 6:29


A reading of the context, of both Romans 11 and Romans 6 must be taken into consideration.

Here are some points we must consider from just these scriptures, as well.

• It is both the gifts and calling that Paul says are irrevocable.
• the gift of eternal life is "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.
• Irrevocable in it's original form must be taken into consideration, as it's meaning is different that the modern term.
• The wages of sin is death, and must be reconciled together with the gift of God of eternal life in Christ, in context.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you have any verses to back up the assumption that a sheep can become a non-sheep? If not, your views are only assumptions.

it's good for us to read and apply scripture in it's context.

These verse's were spoken to His disciples, who heard His Voice, and followed Him throughout Israel... they knew Him.

Judas Iscariot is a good example of believing and following Him for a while.

Those who believe are given eternal life.

Those who believe for a while, then longer believe, have disqualified themselves for the required believing to receive eternal life, since they no longer believe. see Like 8:12-13


25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:25-29

The qualification of those who are given eternal life, and will never perish.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

Hear His Voice - hearing of faith
Follow Him - the obedience of faith

Eternal life is knowing Him. John 17:3 ...this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Those who know Him have eternal life.
Those who know Him for a while have eternal life for a while.

Those who believe are saved.
Those who believe for a while, are saved for a while.



JLB

 

[JLB]

OK, I see. [edited] There are NO verses that teach that if one believes for a while they are only saved for a while.

[edited]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Do those who believe for a while, still believe?

If you were an "A" student who studied diligently, then you no longer studied, and became an "F" student, would you still be considered an "A" student.

If you were married for a while then became divorced, who you still be married, as "joined" to your wife and be "one" with her?

[Edited] OSAS "doctrine" completely dismisses the idea that it's impossible for the Lord, our Husband to divorce us.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Corinthians 6:9-20


Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will be sentenced to go be with the devil and his angels, because they are cursed.

• Those who inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these words on that Day.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:Matthew 25:34

• Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these words on that Day.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3;17


JLB