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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
I asked you to point out, the part of my post that you didn't agree with.
All of the questions, do pertain to Judas believing... for a while.
That's the whole point. those who only believe for a while, don't believe... anymore.
Judas believed and followed Jesus... for a while, then fell away.
Are you saying Judas wasn't with Jesus for 3 1/2 years?
Are you saying Judas wasn't one of the twelve?
Are you saying Judas didn't betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver?
Are you saying Judas didn't believe for a while?
Are you saying Jesus didn't follow Jesus?
Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
Likewise those who defile the Temple, God will destroy.
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17
JLB
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Sending Out the Twelve
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it.13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! Matthew 10:1-15
Judas was among those who were sent and preached, and healed the sick, and raised the dead, and cast out demons.
Now show your scripture that says Judas stole from the money bag.
JLB
LovethroughDove
Member
1 Peter 2:4-5 As you come to him, the living Stone - rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him - you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
This correlates to us as believers are the Temple, big "T".....we are the temple of the Holy Spirit with Jesus as our head.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church
I said this:
"Everyone already knows that I believe that they were saved when they believed. btw, from lots of other Scripture, already provided, when they believed, they RECEIVED the irrevocable gift from God of eternal life."
1 Tim 1:16 - Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
I've quoted these 2 verses repeatedly. So your statement shows that my posts are being ignored. So, since they must be, why bother even responding to any of them, since what I post hasn't been read?
FACTS:
1. Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God, which is IN Christ Jesus.
2. Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
3. There are NO VERSES that say that the gift of eternal life is revocable.
He wrote this, in Eph 1;13,14 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
So, "having believed", believers "were sealed IN HIM". Which is "with the Holy Spirit", "who is given as a pledge (that means PROMISE) of our inheritance. with "a view to the redemption of God's own possession.
Now, add to that the FACT that there are NO VERSES that teach that this sealing can be broken FOR ANY REASON.
In fact, there are NO VERSES that even say such a thing. Nor teach such a thing.
"Everyone already knows that I believe that they were saved when they believed. btw, from lots of other Scripture, already provided, when they believed, they RECEIVED the irrevocable gift from God of eternal life."
This is an astounding claim!! Since I HAVE provided Scripture that actually SAYS what I said.
1 Tim 1:16 - Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
I've quoted these 2 verses repeatedly. So your statement shows that my posts are being ignored. So, since they must be, why bother even responding to any of them, since what I post hasn't been read?
There are 2 direct verses which prove it.
FACTS:
1. Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God, which is IN Christ Jesus.
2. Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
3. There are NO VERSES that say that the gift of eternal life is revocable.
EDIT
He wrote this, in Eph 1;13,14 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
So, "having believed", believers "were sealed IN HIM". Which is "with the Holy Spirit", "who is given as a pledge (that means PROMISE) of our inheritance. with "a view to the redemption of God's own possession.
Now, add to that the FACT that there are NO VERSES that teach that this sealing can be broken FOR ANY REASON.
EDIT
In fact, there are NO VERSES that even say such a thing. Nor teach such a thing.
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No, they don't. They say nothing of the sort. It's only an opinion that they indicate that he believed. I showed a verse that addressed disciples that didn't believe in Jesus that included Judas directly. So the FACTS are on my side.
That's NOT the point at all. I've never disagreed with that.
The whole point is that LOS doctrine CANNOT prove its claim that believing for a while means saved for a while.
John 6:64 shows that Judas, a disciple of Jesus, never believed and betrayed Him.
I AM saying that none of this is relevant to your claim that Judas believed, ever. All of it is irrelevant to the claim that Judas ever believed in Christ for salvation. He was only an opportunist and thief. Nothing more.
LOS doctrine has failed to prove this claim. There is no Scripture that makes this statement.
Like I said, there is no Scripture that teaches that those who believe for a while are saved for a while.
Because that would contradict the verses that teach ES.
Like,
Rom 6:23 with 11:29
John 5:24 with 10:9 and 10:28
1 Thess 5:4-10
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5
chessman
Member
This is a wrong assumption on your part. I do not want to disregard other Scriptures. I love all Scripture and disregard none. Including the first half of Romans 6:23 and the last 1/4 of it. Heck, I love all of Romans. If there were any anti-OSAS Scriptures, I wouldn't think OSAS was accurate doctrine. I literally do not personally care one way or the other if OSAS is true or not. Although it does seem to me to not glorify Jesus if He looses some of His sheep. But since I do think OSAS is Biblical doctrine (including this thread's passage), I'll stick with it until proven wrong.
For example, if there were any Scriptures that said Judas was ever saved, you'd have a valid point. As it stands, however, there is no such Scripture. Plus, it's off-topic to this OP's focus.
Neither does 1 Cor 3:15 or 17 teach anti-OSAS. Which BTW, you didn't answer my question. Do you think "destroy" in 3:17 means to de-save someone?
Where does the verse say "as long as you're in Christ Jesus"? Actually, Never mind answering that question as it's off-topic to the OP and we both know the answer anyway.
Wrong assumption once again. That's NOT why I quote only half of Rom 6:23. The reason is that there's no debate on the first 1/2 nor the last 1/4. In fact here's the whole verse and I'll tell you what I think the last 1/4 implies in light of other Scripture:
Romans 6:23 (LEB) For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 8:34-36 (LEB) Jesus replied to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, that everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. And the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. So if the son sets you free, you will be truly free.
When I read "in Christ Jesus our Lord" it seems to me all the more proof of OSAS, not less. That's the whole point/power of OSAS, is that it's all about GOD and glorifying Jesus. Your idea of anti-OSAS makes The Son out to be a loser, IMO. Some little l lord that not even capable of knowing whether Judas believed in Him or not from the beginning. When in fact He's Lord. But you don't even think Eternal Life is a Gift of God, so I doubt you'd believe that our Eternal Life is secure in Christ Jesus or Lord, (versus our sin free lives), precisely because He is Lord.
But again, JB has asked that we stick to the 1 Cor 3 discussions (except where you all jump to Chapter 9, or elsewhere, of course).
Wrong again. I do quote that part sometimes. But we are not debating that part of the verse. Nor have you ever explained how that part of the verse somehow means Eternal Life is not a gift of God's. I agree, the wages of sin is death. Does that somehow mean Eternal Life in Christ Jesus our Lord is not a gift of God's? No it doesn't.
These parts:
Originally, 1.
and
2.
Judas Iscariot is no more a good example of someone that was saved for a while than my dog is.
Yes that's what I'm saying and doing so because John (well after Jesus' death and resurrection and Judas' death too) recalls and records for us to read; Jesus saying that from the beginning Judas didn't believe and would be the one who later betrays Him. Yes after following Him around and listening to Him speak (just as Satan did). But so what? This would have been a perfect time for John to have said; "Judas believed for a while and was saved for a while" but then betrayed Jesus. But, that's NOT what he recalls Jesus saying about Judas.
So what! Jesus gave an unbeliever some temporary power. None of these verses prove that Judas ever believed. In fact, there are NO VERSES that even show that the disciples believed that Jesus could give them the power. They simply HAD the power. It was not dependent upon them believing that He could give them the power.
Sure. No problem.
John 12:6 - He did not say this because he (Judas) cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. NIV
NASB - Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.
You're welcome.
Don't be misled. The issue isn't whether we are living stones built into a spiritual house. My issue is with those who deny the spiritual house, saying 'The temple are people'.
24 “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.” Mt. 7:24-27
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ezra
Member
judas was never saved . i do not believe for one second a true born again child of God can live like hell and still make heaven .i give you my reason ..i do not believe they was ever saved , i will give scripture in just a minute one there has to be conviction of the holy spirit to ignore it would the same as not having a heavenly father. ---
Hebrews 12:8 - But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
1 John 2:19
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” ..much like the periodical son we would have to come to our senses . all have sinned and come short. there has to be some repentance turning from. if there si never any of this chances are there not saved . my next point on our security ---
A Living Hope
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 " { Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."} 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
once again the security of our salvation is not a open door to commit sin and never worry about repenting
ezra
Member
1 John 2:19
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. judas was greedy in nature the love of money besides it was foretold ahead of time he would sell christ out. he left in outer darkness both natural and spiritual
The scripture you quoted, didn't say Judas didn't believe, it said Judas was the one who betrayed Jesus. Those who didn't believe were not among the twelve, but among the other disciples.
[edited]
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71
We have come to believe and know, that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
We = The Twelve; the ones who believe and know, that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Betray = Judas Iscariot
Judas believed... for a while, then fell away.
Since you quote this scripture as the criteria for having eternal life and never perishing...
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
I have based my questions on this criteria.
Judas heard His voice and believed, thereby following Him... for 3 1/2 years, then fell away.
JLB
Yes. However he believed and knew Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.
So it was his ungodly actions that, that caused him to be disqualified.
Do you believe that Christians who believe and know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, but steal money will still go to heaven?
JLB
So if a person joins a Church and goes there for a while, then goes out from them to another Church, this proves they are lost?
Can you show me the scriptures, that teach us that Judas Iscariot lived like hell?
JLB
Sure. No problem.
John 12:6 - He did not say this because he (Judas) cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. NIV
NASB - Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.
You're welcome.
So people that believe Jesus is the Christ, and know He is the Son of God, but steal money are doomed to hell?
Your welcome.
JLB
That's been done over and over.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.Romans 6:22-23
Those who fruit is unto holiness, will in the end receive eternal life.
Those who sin, and whose fruit is to unrighteousness, will receive the wages for sin, which is death.
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8
....will render to each one according to his deeds.
Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good....
Same thing he said, in chapter 6:22
....having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
....will render to each one according to his deeds.
the wages of sin is death.
Christians who live in unrighteousness, will receive, according to their deeds, indignation and wrath; Eternal death.
Christians who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; will receive in the end eternal life.
JLB
chessman
Member
How about the AMPLIFIED VERSION? Care to compare it to what you've been saying about this section of Scripture?
That is, formerly saved people are what's burned up?
1 Corinthians 3:17 (AMP) If anyone destroys the temple of God corrupting it with false doctrine, God will destroy the destroyer; for the temple of God is holy sacred, and that is what you are.
Get it, false doctrine not de-saved people is the wood, hay and stubble that has been Paul's topic since at least 3:1.
Why do you think these translators inculde that amplification within this verse? I know why, it's because it's extremely obvious what Paul has been talking about in the previous verses (including the one where it says "if anyone's "work" is burned up") that Paul's been talking about doctrines built on his foundational Gospel (either true/spiritual or false/fleshly doctrines) is what get's tested and potentially burned up. Not people!
The matter of the OP's question has been settled by verse 17's amplified meaning and the obvious answer is "false doctrines" is what get's burned up.
But minds changed??? I doubt it.
1 Cor 3:15 will continue to be one of those 'clear and plain' anti-OSAS passages in the minds of the anti-OSAS proponents.
chessman
Member
This is my last post about the locked Romans 6/11 passage.
The verse literraly says we are now set free from sin and have your fruit, yet you turn right around and say no; "Those Christians who sin (to include you, BTW) and ...(something else unbiblical) will receive the wages for sin". Absurd, really.