What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[JLB]

How about the AMPLIFIED VERSION? Care to compare it to what you've been saying about this section of Scripture?
That is, formerly saved people are what's burned up?

1 Corinthians 3:17 (AMP) If anyone destroys the temple of God corrupting it with false doctrine, God will destroy the destroyer; for the temple of God is holy sacred, and that is what you are.
Get it, false doctrine not de-saved people is the wood, hay and stubble that has been Paul's topic since at least 3:1.

That's what I have been saying all along.

False doctrine is the wood, hay, and stubble, the material that is being used to build the people.

The work itself is people. The work is the temple. The people are the temple that is being built.

The substandard building material is the false doctrine; wood, hay and stubble.

The false doctrine, that OSAS, is what causes the people to live immoral lives, and practicing unrighteousness, and defiling those around them.

Because they have no fear of God, to live in an unrighteous lifestyle, as those who are in the world, "thinking" they can live this way because once they are saved, they are always saved, no matter how unrighteous they live their lives.


6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1 Corinthians 5:6-11

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

 

[ezra]

So if a person joins a Church and goes there for a while, then goes out from them to another Church, this proves they are lost?

Can you show me the scriptures, that teach us that Judas Iscariot lived like hell?



JLB

this ends my posting if a frog didnt have legs he would drag him rump on the ground all the time. so if a person might i add joining a church does not make one saved . until you post something that makes sense .this is my last reply

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, this verse says nothing about revoking God's gift of eternal life.

It shows the CONDITION for being presently saved:
"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)
But you insist there is no condition to be met to stay saved. But we can see with our own eyes that Paul says the condition for being (presently) saved is that you are (presently) holding fast the word that you received and were saved by.

Further, there is no context between 1 Cor 15 and Romans. 1 cor 15 doesn't mention any gifts. Nor does it mention that eternal life is revocable, or losable, or any other wording to indicate becoming UN-saved.

The passage PLAINLY refers to salvation, which is a gift of God, and one you insist is non-revocable despite the fact that Paul PLAINLY spells out the condition for being saved after you first hear the gospel and get saved.

I've already explained that the first phrase in v.2, "by which also you are saved" is connected to the past phrase, "unless you believed in vain". And no one has yet refuted my explanation.

You have yet to explain how it is that when a person doesn't really believe the gospel, and so doesn't really gets saved (your interpretation of "unless you believed in vain" vs.2), that somehow removes the condition for saved people that "you are (presently) saved IF you (presently) hold fast the word" (vs. 2 parenthesis mine).

No one has said that ex-believers are still holding fast to the word. That's not in dispute, as far as I'm concerned.

Okay, good.
That being true--that ex-believers are not holding fast the word--how is it then that ex-believers are somehow satisfying the condition "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) that they should still be saved?

How can one "perish" in hell if Jesus said they they WILL NEVER PERISH??

Because they did not hold fast the word by which they were originally saved. The scriptures are plain as day about this: "(Y)ou are saved IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB bold mine).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

faith with out works is dead our works is by faith. was the works motivated by GOD or was it of our own self that will be tested/judged by fire wood hay stubble --look what i did---- gold silver precious stone --look what the Lord has done

The 'look what I did' is the result of one's labor. When one builds a house the house is what the work is and which is then tested to see of what quality it is. Did you know the NIV actually interprets the Corinthians as the result of Paul's work, his labor, among them?

"Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1 NIV)

In 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 NASB, the 'look what I did' are the saved Corinthians. If they are saved as the result of Paul's or anyone else's ministry, they are, metaphorically speaking, the gold and and precious stone in the building because, being saved, they can withstand the fires of the coming Judgment, not be consumed like hay, wood, and stubble would be. And in the event they do prove to be truly saved and made of material that can withstand the fires of the Day of Christ they will be the laborer's reward and crown in the Day of Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB). The Corinthians will be the work that survives the Judgment and can, therefore, be the minister's reward for his labor among them.

24 “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.” Mt. 7:24-27

How can this be the foundation spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15? The hay, wood, and stubble are not a different foundation in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 as it is in Matthew 7:24-27. Paul even points out that there can be no other foundation in the context of what he's talking about (vs. 11), so we know he's not referring to the foundation of obeying the will of God vs. the foundation of not obeying the will of God that Jesus talks about in Matthew, but something built on the one foundation, Jesus the Christ.

 

[ezra]

The 'look what I did' is the result of one's labor. When one builds a house the house is what the work is and which is then tested to see of what quality it is. Did you know the NIV actually interprets the Corinthians as the result of Paul's work, his labor, among them?

"Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1 NIV)

In 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 NASB, the 'look what I did' are the saved Corinthians. If they are saved as the result of Paul's or anyone else's ministry, they are, metaphorically speaking, the gold and and precious stone in the building because, being saved, they can withstand the fires of the coming Judgment, not be consumed like hay, wood, and stubble would be. And in the event they do prove to be truly saved and made of material that can withstand the fires of the Day of Christ they will be the laborer's reward and crown in the Day of Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB). The Corinthians will be the work that survives the Judgment and can, therefore, be the minister's reward for his labor among them.


How can this be the foundation spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15? The hay, wood, and stubble are not a different foundation in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 as it is in Matthew 7:24-27. Paul even points out that there can be no other foundation in the context of what he's talking about (vs. 11), so we know he's not referring to the foundation of obeying the will of God vs. the foundation of not obeying the will of God that Jesus talks about in Matthew, but something built on the one foundation, Jesus the Christ.

if your wanting to be theologically correct yes they are different . but i tie them in together as a illustration . i am not a theologian who crosses every I AND DOT EVERY T

 

[JLB]

This is my last post about the locked Romans 6/11 passage.

The verse literraly says we are now set free from sin and have your fruit, yet you turn right around and say no; "Those Christians who sin (to include you, BTW) and ...(something else unbiblical) will receive the wages for sin". Absurd, really.

Yes, especially me.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


Those who are slaves to God, have their fruit unto holiness, and in the end, they will receive eternal life.

Paul warned these folks not to present their members a slaves to sin.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

Those who live as a slave to sin, manifesting the deeds of unrighteousness will receive the wages of that sin, which is death.

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Those who are a slave to God, and practice righteousness, having their fruit unto holiness, will in the end receive eternal life.

He said the same thing and the beginning of this letter to the Romans.

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

will render to each one according to his deeds... eternal life to those who do what is right.

But, to those who are a slave to sin. and practice unrighteousness, not having their fruit unto holiness because they are a slave to sin, rather than to God, so they will receive the wages, the payment, the reward for sin, which is eternal life, as opposed to eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

OSAS doctrine doesn't lead a single person away from or toward sin (saved or not saved).

If a person is led to believe, through false doctrine, that they are free to present their members as slaves of sin, and live anyway they desire, but would never lose their place in God's Kingdom, which is the same as they would never go to hell, because OSAS, there is nothing to restrain them, as there is no fear of God in their lives.


2 By swearing and lying, Killing and stealing and committing adultery,
They break all restraint, With bloodshed upon bloodshed.
3 Therefore the land will mourn; And everyone who dwells there will waste away
With the beasts of the field And the birds of the air;
Even the fish of the sea will be taken away.
4 “Now let no man contend, or rebuke another;
For your people are like those who contend with the priest.
5 Therefore you shall stumble in the day;
The prophet also shall stumble with you in the night;
And I will destroy your mother.
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.
Hosea 4:2-6


Through this doctrine the Church has become weak and her light is dim, no longer being salt and light to this nation.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Yes, especially me.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


Those who are slaves to God, have their fruit unto holiness, and in the end, they will receive eternal life.

Paul warned these folks not to present their members a slaves to sin.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

Those who live as a slave to sin, manifesting the deeds of unrighteousness will receive the wages of that sin, which is death.

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Those who are a slave to God, and practice righteousness, having their fruit unto holiness, will in the end receive eternal life.

He said the same thing and the beginning of this letter to the Romans.

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

will render to each one according to his deeds... eternal life to those who do what is right.

But, to those who are a slave to sin. and practice unrighteousness, not having their fruit unto holiness because they are a slave to sin, rather than to God, so they will receive the wages, the payment, the reward for sin, which is eternal life, as opposed to eternal life.


JLB

Other than your typo that you might want to fix, I agree will all that.

 

[JLB]

Other than your typo that you might want to fix, I agree will all that.

Ok, what did I typo

 

[JLB]

Bull. People live immoral lives because they are by nature people. The un-saved ones have not The Holy Spirit living within them convicting them of their sin. They couldn't care less about the doctrine of OSAS or being in Jesus Christ or sin.

I have never mentioned the unsaved, but am only referring to the Church in all my post's.

Especially me.

As Paul did.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13


JLB

 

[JLB]

Those who are in Christ Jesus then are removed from Him, no longer have eternal life, because they are no longer in Him.
JLB

In fact, there are NO VERSES that even say such a thing. Nor teach such a thing.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The scripture you quoted, didn't say Judas didn't believe, it said Judas was the one who betrayed Jesus. Those who didn't believe were not among the twelve, but among the other disciples.

The real problem is with those who claim that Judas was a believer. The Bible makes no such statement. The Bible also notes that Satan himself entered Judas. There is no teaching that believers or saved people have been or can be demon possessed. I do not deal in assumptions.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71

We have come to believe and know, that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

We = The Twelve; the ones who believe and know, that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Betray = Judas Iscariot

Judas believed... for a while, then fell away.

Since you quote this scripture as the criteria for having eternal life and never perishing...

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

I have based my questions on this criteria.


Judas heard His voice and believed, thereby following Him... for 3 1/2 years, then fell away.
JLB

imo, your views are based on assumption rather than on what God's word says.

 

[JLB]

Those who are in Christ Jesus then are removed from Him, no longer have eternal life, because they are no longer in Him.
JLB

In fact, there are NO VERSES that even say such a thing. Nor teach such a thing.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No, this verse says nothing about revoking God's gift of eternal life."

It shows the CONDITION for being presently saved:
"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)
But you insist there is no condition to be met to stay saved.

Because there is NO CONDITION to be met to stay saved. Again, I repeat; I believe you are reading the verse totally WRONG. The FIRST phrase and the LAST phrase of v.2 are directly connected. That was Paul's point.

He wrote: "by which you are saved...unless you believed in vain". That is the point of v.2.

But we can see with our own eyes that Paul says the condition for being (presently) saved is that you are (presently) holding fast the word that you received and were saved by.

One is free to make their own assumptions about what verses say, but what is very clear to me is that one is saved UNLESS they have believed in vain, or without purpose.

My understanding cannot be denied. And your understanding of v.2 is refuted by the fact that eternal life, which is a gift of God, AND, the fact that God's gifts are irrevocable, AND the fact that Paul NEVER excluded any gift of God from his statement about God's gifts being irrevocable.

The passage PLAINLY refers to salvation, which is a gift of God, and one you insist is non-revocable despite the fact that Paul PLAINLY spells out the condition for being saved after you first hear the gospel and get saved.

Paul SAID that God's gifts are irrevocable. Paul NEVER SAID that any gifts were revocable. Paul NEVER excluded the gift of eternal life from 11:29.

If eternal life were revocable, then Paul was extremely negligent by not making clear from the context of Romans that he never meant eternal life when he wrote 11:29. And we see no such wording.

You have yet to explain how it is that when a person doesn't really believe the gospel, and so doesn't really gets saved (your interpretation of "unless you believed in vain" vs.2), that somehow removes the condition for saved people that "you are (presently) saved IF you (presently) hold fast the word" (vs. 2 parenthesis mine).

Yes, I did, which has either been ignored, wasn't read, or forgotten already.

The Greek word for "hold fast" absolutely does NOT mean what you're thinking it means. It means to "possess". And when one believes, they possess eternal life, which has been proven repeatedly. And since eternal life is irrevocable, being a gift of God, and Paul never said otherwise, that's all v.2 means about "holding fast".

And your view is refuted by Jesus' words in John 10:28,29 - 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

The words "no one" means "no person". If you consider yourself a "person", then these verses also apply to you. Jesus didn't say "no one ELSE". He said "no one", or "no person".

Not even oneself can remove themselves from either His or His Father's hand.

That's what's being missed here. The saved child of God is being held by God Himself.

To claim that one can do anything to be removed from the Father's hand is a claim that Jesus didn't really mean what He said in these 2 verses. I find that stunning.

So, was Paul contradicting Jesus' words? I know he was not. The saved child of God does NOT have either the power or authority to remove themselves from God's hand. Jesus said so.

Okay, good.

That being true--that ex-believers are not holding fast the word--how is it then that ex-believers are somehow satisfying the condition "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) that they should still be saved?

The condition for being saved is that they didn't believe "in vain", until later. And LOS doctrine has failed to provide any verse that teaches that salvation is conditioned on a continuing belief.

The Bible does teach that eternal life is irrevocable and that "no person" is able to snatch God's saved child from His hand.

Because they did not hold fast the word by which they were originally saved. The scriptures are plain as day about this: "(Y)ou are saved IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB bold mine).

Once eternal life is received, it is possessed, which is the meaning of "hold fast" in the Greek.
katechō is the Greek word. I've already given the lexical meanings.

And since eternal life is irrevocable, Once Possessed, Always Saved. Or OPAS.

 

[JLB]

The real problem is with those who claim that Judas was a believer. The Bible makes no such statement. The Bible also notes that Satan himself entered Judas. There is no teaching that believers or saved people have been or can be demon possessed. I do not deal in assumptions.


imo, your views are based on assumption rather than on what God's word says.

That pretty much sums up the whole foundation, on which OSAS rest's.


60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe,andwho would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve,“Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon,for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71

We have come to believe and know, that you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

• But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

Notice it doesn't say.. Jesus knew from the beginning who "he was" who did not believe, but the scripture says, "who they were" who didn't believe. This refers to a group of the disciples and not just one disciple.

• His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

This refers to the other disciples and not the twelve, for the next verse says...Then Jesus said to the twelve,“Do you also want to go away?”

• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:66-69

The scripture is clear that the twelve believed and knew Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God, and proved that they believed by continuing to follow Him, not as the other disciples who didn't believe, and showed the didn't believe by no longer following Him.


Judas was the one who betrayed Jesus.
Judas believed and followed Jesus for 3 1/2 years up until the time of His betrayal.
Judas believed for awhile, then fell away.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2
JLB

Where is the proof that "takes away" equals loss of salvation?

Jesus was speaking of service to Him. Such believers are taken away from service.

There are zero verses in Scripture in which the words "taken away" are equated with loss of salvation, or being "removed from Christ".

Which is impossible anyway, since Paul shut the door on that idea in Eph 1;13,14 and 4:30 by teaching about the sealing with the Holy Spirit, a promise for the day of redemption.

And he didn't add any exclusions to that, as LOS followers have to do.

 

[JLB]

And since eternal life is irrevocable, Once Possessed, Always Saved. Or OPAS.

There is no such verse in the bible that says this.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Romans 6:23 does not say this.

Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death for those Christians who live a life of sin.

Romans 6:22 says in the end, those whose fruit is unto holiness will receive eternal life.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Romans 6:22

The context proves that eternal life comes at the end.
The context proves that the alternative is those who live in sin, will receive death.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The context is clear.


JLB

 

[chessman]

If a person is led to believe, through false doctrine, that they are free to present their members as slaves of sin, and live anyway they desire, but would never lose their place in God's Kingdom, which is the same as they would never go to hell, because OSAS, there is nothing to restrain them, as there is no fear of God in their lives.

JLB

Nobody is saved from Hell by anything other than the fact that God saves them Hell. The Father has gracoiusly chosen to save people that truly come to believe in the foundational doctrine Paul taught there on his first visit (Jesus Christ and Him crucified). Nobody is saved by believing in OSAS or it's opposite LOS. Both doctrines will be tested with fire on The Day of the Lord and we'll both know who was right and who was wrong. Which one burns up or which one remains. But either way, the people that believe in the foundational Gospel remain. It's the doctrines they believe in and teach that are tested. Only one of which is if "first importance".

I think OSAS remains because it glorifies Jesus as Lord. You disagree. Fine. But neither of us teach people that they can "live their lives anyway they desire".

1 Corinthians 2:2 (LEB) For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
​

People add all kinds of 'stuff' on top of that foundation. Some of it spiritually discerned (such as Paul teaches), yet some doctrines not spiritually discerned. Like a doctrine that says a thief who believes in the foundational doctrine gets sent to Hell. Including theives that don't even realize they are stealing other people's rights but steal them none the less.

Paul's various letters adds lots of spiritual doctrines on top of his foundational one. Things only spiritual people can understand. Which of course DO NOT include 'go out and live lives like Hell' cause there's no fear of God in you. That is simply your idea of what OSAS teaches. It doesn't teach that.

One might say that doctrine this way:

Romans 6:15 (LEB) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! ​

Given the power of God's Grace, it's a reasonable question to ask. And a reasonable answer/doctrine is given to answer it (no). But nowhere does the answer say God's gifts are revocable though.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (LEB) Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order that we may know the things freely given to us by God, things which we also speak (see Rom 6 and 11 for examples), not in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
​

For another example, Paul adds this spiritual doctrine (yet simple enough) to his foundational one:

1 Corinthians 3:23 (LEB) and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
​

To me this doctrine says saved people belong to Christ. Which is additional to the foundational doctrine of Jesus is God and God raised Jesus from the dead.

Some saved people know they belong to Christ, some do not. So? Do you have to know you belong to Christ to be saved? Did the thief on the cross know that?

 

[JLB]

Where is the proof that "takes away" equals loss of salvation?

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away. John 15:2

Eternal life is only found in Christ, and is the definition of eternal life, being joined to Him, and thus joined to the eternal in Him.

He is Life. Apart from Him there is no eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


If you have a scripture that shows us we can have eternal life from another source than being in Him, then post it.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no such verse in the bible that says this.

Edited. And LOS doctrine has NO SUCH VERSE in the Bible about losing one's salvation.

But OPAS is true. Once eternal life is possessed, the possessor is always saved. LOS doctrine has not proven otherwise.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
Romans 6:23 does not say this.
Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death for those Christians who live a life of sin.

Mere assumption, because the verse certainly DOES NOT even address "a life of sin". Paul is contrasting the outcome for unbelievers, who do not have eternal life, with believers, who DO have eternal life.

Paul is stating the contrast between those who have believed with those who never believed.

Please answer (finally) this question: if "the wages of sin is death" means going to hell for a believer, then just what did Christ die for?

I've politely asked this many times and have been ignored every time.

I think it's time for someone from the LOS side to answer the question. The Bible teaches that Christ "died for sin once for all" in Rom 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

For me, this is a MAJOR FLAW in LOS doctrine. The question seems unanswerable to me.

If He died to sin, then sin CANNOT be an issue for salvation. He took the penalty of sin so those who believe WILL NEVER PERISH. Sound familiar?

Romans 6:22 says in the end, those whose fruit is unto holiness will receive eternal life.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Romans 6:22

The context proves that eternal life comes at the end.

Well, that's certainly different than what Jesus taught. He said this: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24

Why should I believe that eternal life "comes at the end" when Jesus SAID that those who believe HAVE eternal life?