What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[JLB]

Nor were they ever even implied to be once-saved people in Jesus' seed sower parable either.

Ok lets examine the parable of the Sower.

I will point out what I see, and you point out what you see.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.Luke 8:12

Jesus said... lest they should believe and be saved.

The devil snatch away the seed, before it could be received into the ground, grow a root system, and sprout up, which Jesus associated with believing.... as he said lest they believe, and be saved.

These by the wayside, never received the seed into their heart.... as they never believed.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


The second group did believe, and did receive the word and was joyful at receiving the seed.

Jesus said the key to being said was to believe. These folks believed... for a while, then fell away.

The problem came when the sun came up, and things began to "heat up", which represented persecution and tribulation, because of the seed, the message of the kingdom.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Jesus plainly said... Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

These in this group never did produce fruit, [because they no longer believed, and therefore no longer did they abide, but fell away from the faith, under persecution.




JLB

 

[MarkT]

I don't know where I suggested otherwise.


That is indeed another facet of our labor in whatever ministry it is that God has entrusted to us. But this is not what is being tested in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 NASB. There is a time and place for the matter of our faithfulness to the trust God has entrusted to us to be judged (1 Corinthians 9:16 NASB). Jonah comes to mind, too.

The work being tested is your understanding of the word. Anyone can say they understand the word, and so they are saved. But the fire will test each man's understanding to see if it is of God or of man. The fire is the word of God. God knows what he said. When Jesus returns, there will be no arguing what he said. He will tell you with fire what he said.

 

[MarkT]

And there won't be any arguing what Paul said, just a devastating fire, as everything you think he said but did not say goes up in smoke, and your house burns to the foundation.

 

[FreeGrace]

No. That wasn't the point. I was using them and their doctrine as an example I was sure you'd know about--how a teaching that teaches people to be ungodly (greedy in this case) is popular because of that teaching, just as OSAS is popular because it takes the burden off of people to examine their works to make sure they have the Holy Spirit in salvation, because as OSAS insists, works have nothing to do with salvation, or else that would be a works gospel.

Any pastor or SS teacher who teaches eternal security and FAILS to teach the serious and significant consequences for disobedience and God's discipline for such children are total failures, and yes, I agree that they will certainly lose reward for their failure to teach the whole council of God.

But the phrase "teaches people to be ungodly" is totally bogus. People are BORN ungodly, btw. No one has to be taught. And when eternal security isn't balanced with a good dose of divine discipline for disobedience, people will naturally do that they naturally want.

 

[JLB]

Any pastor or SS teacher who teaches eternal security and FAILS to teach the serious and significant consequences for disobedience and God's discipline for such children are total failures, and yes, I agree that they will certainly lose reward for their failure to teach the whole council of God.

The serious consequences for practicing the works of the flesh is, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The serious consequences for practicing the works of the flesh is, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Correct.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
JLB

This passage is parallel to 2 other similar passages, one in 1 Cor and the other one in Eph 5. The issue is loss of reward, not loss of salvation. This has all been explained thoroughly.

 

[JLB]

But the phrase "teaches people to be ungodly" is totally bogus. People are BORN ungodly, btw.

Scripture for this statement please.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"So then, did Jesus Christ not die for all sins? Is Rev 21 a list of the sins for which He didn't die for?

Jesus died for people, so that they could be reconciled to God by having their sins forgiven.

Confessing your sin is how your sin is forgiven.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Colossians 2:13

Yes we are forgiven our trespasses that we have committed.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

By dying for the world, Christ purchased the gift of eternal life for everyone. But the ONLY WAY to receive this free gift is "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ". There is NO OTHER WAY.

The only way to receive is by obeying the Gospel, which is what makes faith active.

The only way to continue to have salvation is to continue in the faith, by enduring to the end.


Those who believe are saved.

Believe = Saved

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Just like Judas, who believed for a while then fell away and betrayed the Lord.

That is what falling away is, Betrayal.

Fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
      
      
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
      
      
   3. to fall away, become faithless
      
      
   4. to shun, flee from
      
      
   5. to cease to vex one
      
      
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
      
      
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Here is a simple list of synonyms for betray:

• abandon
• deceive
• forsake
• mislead
• seduce
• bluff
• cross
• delude

• desert
• finger
• jilt
• knife
• trick
• be unfaithful
• blow the whistle
• break faith

JLB

 

[chessman]

I will point out what I see, and you point out what you see.

I see the following:

1. I see a fundamental problem with establishing LOS doctrine by using a parable that Jesus left open to interpretation with respect to the soils' salvation state. Yes, Jesus interpreted portions of this parable, but He never (not once) said the soils were saved then lost their salvation. If Jesus had interpreted this parable and stated "soils 1,2, and 3 were saved for awhile but lost their salvation' you'd have a Biblical point. But He didn't interpret this parable that way. You do. But He could have if that would have been His point.

2. I see desperation from the LOS group to try and add personal interpretation that Jesus never gave for this parable or the one about the wheat and tares seed or the branches burning metaphor. If you cannot find LOS Texts that directly say that you loose your salvation for doing X,Y, Z then it makes your case look extremely weak to do so using uniterpreted parable/metaphor (uninterpreted in the way you do) in the first place. For something so vitally important as loosing your salvation, you'd think Jesus would have given a Truly, Truly you will loose Eternal Life if you do x, y, z

3. I see great amounts of inconsistency within your additions to Jesus' interpretation.
The purpose of the parable was/is to teach that it is necessary to have the right ingredients (The Word-Jesus, Word enriched cultivated soil-saved people, water and sunlight-Holy Spirit supplied by the root) in order to bear fruit. Lack any of these ingredients=no fruit. It's not about three ways to loose your salvation.

4. I see inconsistency when you say:

These by the wayside, never received the seed into their heart.... as they never believed.

This SHOULD (but isn't because I've pointed this out to you before) that your interpretation is wrong. Directly contradicts Jesus' interpretation here:

Luke 8:11-12 (LEB) Now the parable means this: the seed is the word of God, and those beside the path are the ones who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved. ​

The Devil takes it FROM their heart. He doesn't prohibit The Word from entering their hearts. Just like Judas took money FROM the money bag.

5. I see inconsistency in how you assume soil #2 is saved given the fact that Jesus just said soil #1 was not saved even though The Word had reached their heart.

second group did believe, and did receive the word and was joyful at receiving the seed.

Jesus said the key to being said [sic, I assume you mean saved] was to believe. These folks believed... for a while, then fell away.

Yes, to believe in the key Gospel (the Gospel of Paul's first important for example) for the forgiveness of your sins results in salvation. But notice, key within this key Gospel is the belief that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness. Not exactly a joyful thought that the wages of YOUR sin is death. Regardless, Jesus doesn't say they are saved for awhile and fell away from their salvation. He simply said they fell away from their joyful belief. This soil sounds to me like one of those prosperity gospel believers who hasn't figured out their sins are worthy of death. You can't save a person that doesn't realize they need saving. But Jesus doesn't say so I'm not dogmatic.

But someone very wise once said:

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Colossians 2:13

6. I see more inconsistencies but this post is long enough already.

 

[chessman]

That is what falling away is, Betrayal.

Fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
      
      
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
      
      
   3. to fall away, become faithless
      
      
   4. to shun, flee from
      
      
   5. to cease to vex one
      
      
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
      
      
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Here is a simple list of synonyms for betray:

• abandon
• deceive
• forsake
• mislead
• seduce
• bluff
• cross
• delude

• desert
• finger
• jilt
• knife
• trick
• be unfaithful
• blow the whistle
• break faith

Out of 24 definitions and synonyms, not one is "loose your salvation". Ever wondered why?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, the details don't support your case anyway. You'd have to make a Biblical case that x amount of fruit bearing each year is necessary to maintain your salvation to even get started.

I think it kind of ironic that an OSASer would look for a legalistic answer to the question of fruitfulness.

You see, it isn't about a legalistic amount of doing this or that. It's the matter of bearing fruit as the result of a changed heart. A changed heart that only born again saved people have. Changed hearts are signified by the character trait--the fruit--of love.

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3: 14-15 NASB)

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (John 3:10 NASB)

 

[ezra]

Okay, the details don't support your case anyway. You'd have to make a Biblical case that x amount of fruit bearing each year is necessary to maintain your salvation to even get started. Then you'd have to show that burning pruning and clipings and year by a farmer was somehow meant to represent Final Judgment.

pruning is a way to produce growth read secrets of the vine

Scripture for this statement please.

psalm 51 was you born a saint?

 

[chessman]

I think it kind of ironic that an OSASer would look for a legalistic answer to the question of fruitfulness

I'm not looking for a legalistic answer to the question of fruitfulness. It just seems to me that you are looking at fruitfulness legalistically. As in the 11th commandment: Thou shalt bear fruit lest thee become un-saved.

Changed hearts are signified by the character trait--the fruit--of love.

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3: 14-15 NASB)

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (John 3:10 NASB)

Yes, fruitfulness shows US a changed heart. But God doesn't need to see fruit in order to know hearts. We do, though.

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3: 14-15 NASB)

The passage doesn't say; God knows that we have passed out of death into life...

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: ...

The passage doesn't say; 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious to God...
He already knows who His children are!

 

[JLB]

Out of 24 definitions and synonyms, not one is "loose your salvation". Ever wondered why?

So you believe Judas was saved?

 

[JLB]

see the following:

1. I see a fundamental problem with establishing LOS doctrine by using a parable that Jesus left open to interpretation with respect to the soils' salvation state. Yes, Jesus interpreted portions of this parable, but He never (not once) said the soils were saved then lost their salvation. If Jesus had interpreted this parable and stated "soils 1,2, and 3 were saved for awhile but lost their salvation' you'd have a Biblical point. But He didn't interpret this parable that way. You do. But He could have if that would have been His point.

Please point out what you see from the scripture.

Please use the actual language and words from the scripture itself to validate your belief.


JLB

 

[chessman]

pruning is a way to produce growth read secrets of the vine

Yes pruning does produce healthy new growth ripe for bearing fruit.

I like the way Bruce started out his book by pointing out that this is part of Jesus' farwell discourse. It's the message He left them with on how to live and produce fruit in the process. He tells this story to The 11 Disciples whom He'd just washed their feet, after dismissing Judas of course.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The passage doesn't say; God knows that we have passed out of death into life...

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: ...

The passage doesn't say; 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious to God...
He already knows who His children are!

Are you purposely ignoring the fact that John says the person who is obviously a child of the devil, as seen to us, is not saved? You are trying to make a connection between bearing no fruit and being saved that John clearly says does not exist.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious (to us, by their behavior): anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But the phrase "teaches people to be ungodly" is totally bogus. People are BORN ungodly, btw."

Scripture for this statement please.

This question insinuates that people are not born ungodly, or are born godly. Which isn't taught in Scripture.

So, here are the Scriptures:
8“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:36

iow, until one believes, they have already been judged. That covers the entire period from birth until faith in Christ.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

iow, no one has eternal life until they believe in Christ. Therefore, from birth until faith in Christ, no one has eternal life.

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins" Eph 2:1, 5

iow, until one has eternal life, they are dead in their sins. From birth forward.

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" Col 2:13

iow, until one believes and is "made alive" or born again, or receives the gift of eternal life, we are "dead in our transgressions". From birth forward.

And thanks for asking.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So then, did Jesus Christ not die for all sins? Is Rev 21 a list of the sins for which He didn't die for?

Jesus died for people, so that they could be reconciled to God by having their sins forgiven.

I proved from Scripture that He died for OUR sins. Paul said so in 1 Cor 15:3.

Confessing your sin is how your sin is forgiven.

Yes, for the believer, and for fellowship with God, per 1 John 1:4-9. But all sins are forgiven forensically through faith in Christ, per Acts 10:43 - “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

I believe that all sins are forgiven through faith in Christ. After salvation, sins are forgiven for purification and cleansing for believers only.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This was written to those who are already saved by faith in Christ. And the subject of 1 John 1 is fellowship.

The only way to receive is by obeying the Gospel, which is what makes faith active.

The word for "obey" in Jn 3:36 is: apeitheō

1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with

The only way to continue to have salvation is to continue in the faith, by enduring to the end.

Scripture please. And the only verses about "enduring to the end" has as context ONLY the 7 year Tribulation. So those don't count for anyone else.

Those who believe are saved.

And Jesus said of those who HAVE eternal life, meaning they ARE saved, is that they WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Believe = Saved

Yes, clearly stated in the Bible.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

This is a faulty assumption, not based on anything in the Bible. But please provide any verse that teaches that one must continue in faith in order to stay or be saved.

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

I do not deal in assumptions.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Please exegete v.13 to prove that "falling away" means loss of salvation. One's assumption must be defended by accurate exegesis.

Just like Judas, who believed for a while then fell away and betrayed the Lord.

Again, more assumption, which I do not deal with.

That is what falling away is, Betrayal.

No, Jesus was clear about what He meant by "falling away" in Luke 8:13. He said "they believed for a while". So, to "fall away" means to cease to believe, or not continue to believe.

Fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
      
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
      
   3. to fall away, become faithless
      
   4. to shun, flee from
      
   5. to cease to vex one
      
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
      
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

1. 1. Sure, just as I said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you'd have to show that burning pruning and clipings each year by a farmer was somehow meant to represent Final Judgment.

You misunderstand. If a branch or field has ANY fruit of the Spirit, it is not subject to the burning at the Final Judgment. Instead, it will be pruned back to make it more fruitful, in this age. It is the branch or field that does not bear the fruit of the Spirit that is burned up in the end:

"7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8 NASB)

And that is what fruitless branches and fields have to look forward to--being destroyed, not lovingly pruned back. They are fruitless because they do not have the faith in Christ that produces that fruit. And faith is what you have to have to be kept by the power of God for the Day of Judgment and the salvation that is to be revealed at that time (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB). And so it is for that reason that fruitless branches and fields are burned up at the Judgment, not saved.

So, if we plant the field of God, or build the building of God, with people who end up being fruitless (faithless), they will burned up at the Final Judgment. That's why we have to be careful how we build (1 Corinthians 3:10 NASB). There is no reward in the kingdom of God of people for the worker in the field and building of God of people (1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB) who don't make it through to the other side to be that reward, but instead get burned up in the Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:14-15 NASB). And if the worker himself is responsible for the people in the field and building of God being fruitless/faithless, and as a result destroyed, they themselves will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB).

Teachers of OSAS ought to be aware of this. If a person's particular brand of OSAS that they teach is that a believer can turn to the law, or to Allah, and away from Christ for justification and they will still be saved, and some believers then do that thinking they will still be saved, the one who brought that teaching may well be the very one's whom God will destroy for destroying his temple. God warned us, folks. I'm not judging anyone. I don't know who God holds responsible for doing that, and who he does not. I'm not the Judge. But that hardly means God isn't going to judge anybody at all for destroying his temple.