What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[chessman]

WHY would God cut off a living branch??
A living branch produces some fruit.

In order that it may produce even more fruit, next year.

John 15:2 Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.

I'm surprised you wouldn't know why this is done having cultivated grape vines. I have some vines that are 40 years old. Ordered with Green Stamps. You prune even the fruitbearing branches lest they begin to grow old and stop bearing fruit. But the point is, you burn the prunings in the pile with those branches you have cut off.

John's point is precisely to teach "de-salvation".
I'd say that if something is BURNED, it's condemned.

Okay, but Jesus didn't precisely say that if something is burned, it's condemned.

 

[MarkT]

Actually it's the word of God that does the work. Heb. 4:12

That's what Paul is saying; build with the word of God. Build with the wisdom, knowledge and understanding/insight that we have been given.

The work of an apostle is to preach the word. The work of a teacher is to teach the word. The work of a prophet is to speak the word. If Paul's preaching laid the foundation, then Apollos' teaching is building on the foundation.

The RSV says, or interpreting spiritual truths in spiritual language for 1 Cor. 2:13 I believe the language of the Proverbs is unmistakeable. Proverbs 3:13-15 for instance. 13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom,
and the man who gets understanding,
14 for the gain from it is better than gain from silver
and its profit better than gold.
15 She is more precious than jewels,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

 

[LovethroughDove]

In order that it may produce even more fruit, next year.

John 15:2 Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.

I'm gonna add to the grape discussion, cause there is a little disconnect between ideas that I want to be connected with everyone.

Jesus can be talking to people who are interested in the "Word" be have not been totally convinced. Jesus is also the "Word", but he also came in the flesh. I want to get this little point across.

We can either remain in his "Word" words, and bear fruit..........or not and we won't bear fruit. I don't know if it is a salvation thing at this particular point, but it is a warning to EVERYONE. You can't ignore him and bear fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

In order that it may produce even more fruit, next year.

John 15:2 Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.

I'm surprised you wouldn't know why this is done having cultivated grape vines. I have some vines that are 40 years old. Ordered with Green Stamps. You prune even the fruitbearing branches lest they begin to grow old and stop bearing fruit. But the point is, you burn the prunings in the pile with those branches you have cut off.


Okay, but Jesus didn't precisely say that if something is burned, it's condemned.

You're agreeing with me now Chessman. This is not what you said originally.

This is what you originally replied to Jethro Bodine:

Actually, it is you that is misunderstanding Jesus' use of the vinedresser metaphor. Have you ever cultivated grape vines? In order to maximize their fruit production you have to prune/cut and burn not just the branches that are not producing fruit but also the ones that are. That way they produce even more fruit next year.

In your above quote, you're cutting even branches that are producing fruit.
Now you're saying that branches are pruned to produce more fruit next year.
Which is correct.

Plus, it's a metaphor Chessman, not botany. Let's not get carried away.
In botany if the vine becomes too heavy laden, sometimes we remove even some good branches,
BUT
Jesus was making a point.
HE would not have removed good branches and put them to dry and then burned them.

It's not correct to compare the botany concept with what Jesus was teaching.

Again:
Fruit bearing branches are CUT BACK so that they could produce more fruit the next year. (as you agree).
DEAD branches, as spiritually dead persons, are CUT OFF AND BURNED.

And what would some of the fruit be?
Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Gentleness, Self-Control
Expanding the Kingdom of God
Helping others

The fruit could be of small quantity, but some fruit has to be present. If there is no fruit present, there's a good chance the person does not know God. If the person does not know God, he is dead spriritually - just like Adam and Eve died after they ate the forbidden fruit. Physically they were alive, but spiritually they were dead.

And I do believe that if something is burned, it's condemned. What else could it possibly mean??

And I think this will end the discussion on Vines.
BTW, not only have we grown grape in my family, but I'm surrounded by vineyards!

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Two points:

WHY would God cut off a living branch??
A living branch produces some fruit.

Here's what Jethro Bodine stated:
Jethro Bodine said: ↑
You misunderstand. If a branch or field has ANY fruit of the Spirit, it is not subject to the burning

If a branch has any fruit on it, it is CUT BACK so that it will become stronger and produce more fruit.
It is NOT burned.
John 15:2

Jesus is the vine and if we are part of the vine we will be able to produce good fruit.
John 15:5a

If anyone does NOT abide in Christ, he cannot bear fruit
John 15:5b
And the branch is cut down and burned
John 15:6

John's point is precisely to teach "de-salvation".
I'd say that if something is BURNED, it's condemned.
If a person is condemned, he is not saved.

We are to ABIDE in Christ
John 15:6 If one DOES NOT ABIDE (live with) with Jesus, he is gathered up, like a dead branch, and cast into the fire and burned.

Seems very clear to me.

Wondering

It is very clear and can not be refuted.

However, that doesn't stop the OSAS folks from redefining what "thrown into the fire and burned" means.

Their definition of thrown into the fire and burned, really means "removed from Christian service".

The only way for them to peddle their doctrine to unlearned, yet hungry Christians who are growing in the Lord, is to "redefine" what biblical words and phrases mean.

Then they grow up reading the bible through a predetermined mindset, which develops into a stronghold.


This is the the same ploy the enemy used in the Garden against Eve.

Did God really say...? No Eve here is what what God really meant... because He knows you will be just like Him, knowing good from evil.


The same is used with the phrase.. will not inherit the kingdom of God, which has been "redefined" to mean "loss of rewards".


Jesus defined what this meant, when He taught His disciples privately on the mount of Olives.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Those who will not inherit the kingdom of God will here these words from the Lord.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Therefore when Paul warns the churches, and uses this phrase... will not inherit the kingdom of God, we know what he is warning us of.


9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm gonna add to the grape discussion, cause there is a little disconnect between ideas that I want to be connected with everyone.

Jesus can be talking to people who are interested in the "Word" be have not been totally convinced. Jesus is also the "Word", but he also came in the flesh. I want to get this little point across.

We can either remain in his "Word" words, and bear fruit..........or not and we won't bear fruit. I don't know if it is a salvation thing at this particular point, but it is a warning to EVERYONE. You can't ignore him and bear fruit.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

May main point in this discussion is the phrase "in Me".

Eternal life is only found "in Him".

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The way we come to be "in Christ", is to believe the message [word] of the Kingdom.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved.

Next, the Lord said there would be those who endure only for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Jesus went on to say... Those who endure to the end will be saved.

Believing is the work of abiding.

One can not expect to remain connected to Him in relationship, if the no longer believe.

One can not expect to bear fruit, if one does not abide, that is to say; remain connected to the source.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It is very clear and can not be refuted.

However, that doesn't stop the OSAS folks from redefining what "thrown into the fire and burned" means.

Their definition of thrown into the fire and burned, really means "removed from Christian service".

The only way for them to peddle their doctrine to unlearned, yet hungry Christians who are growing in the Lord, is to "redefine" what biblical words and phrases mean.

Then they grow up reading the bible through a predetermined mindset, which develops into a stronghold.


This is the the same ploy the enemy used in the Garden against Eve.

Did God really say...? No Eve here is what what God really meant... because He knows you will be just like Him, knowing good from evil.


The same is used with the phrase.. will not inherit the kingdom of God, which has been "redefined" to mean "loss of rewards".


Jesus defined what this meant, when He taught His disciples privately on the mount of Olives.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Those who will not inherit the kingdom of God will here these words from the Lord.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Therefore when Paul warns the churches, and uses this phrase... will not inherit the kingdom of God, we know what he is warning us of.


9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10



JLB

Thanks for posting this JLB.

I see that the English language changes depending on who's reading it.

I'd also like to add that I believe Jesus and Paul and all the writers of the letters were very careful in what they said and everything important was said many times and concepts are clear and remained the same until Mr. Calvin translated the N.T. in his own version and, might I add, a version no other church agrees with.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

until Mr. Calvin translated the N.T. in his own version and, might I add, a version no other church agrees with.

:nod

 

[LovethroughDove]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

May main point in this discussion is the phrase "in Me".

Eternal life is only found "in Him".

JLB

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

He is the Word also, and we need to abide in him. If you stop believing in the Word, you don't believe in Christ either. The Word and Jesus are one, and you know this.....believers all know this.

We are all in agreement. The disconnect is (and maybe I'm wrong), some people think that you can be a believer and not be producing fruit leading to righteousness?

If you remain in him (the Word) and the word remains in you, you will be pruned and it hurts......but you're not cut off.

And there is a difference between the pruning (God knows you are still in his Word), and being cut off (He knows you don't want him)

 

[GodsGrace]

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

He is the Word also, and we need to abide in him. If you stop believing in the Word, you don't believe in Christ either. The Word and Jesus are one, and you know this.....believers all know this.

We are all in agreement. The disconnect is (and maybe I'm wrong), some people think that you can be a believer and not be producing fruit leading to righteousness?

If you remain in him (the Word) and the word remains in you, you will be pruned and it hurts......but you're not cut off.

And there is a difference between the pruning (God knows you are still in his Word), and being cut off (He knows you don't want him)

You're right LovethroughDove

Everything you said is correct.
The WORD and JESUS is the same.

We are to obey the Word and this is the same as obeying Jesus.

Thanks for posting!

Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

You're right LovethroughDove

Everything you said is correct.
The WORD and JESUS is the same.

We are to obey the Word and this is the same as obeying Jesus.

Thanks for posting!

Wondering

 

[JLB]

The disconnect is (and maybe I'm wrong), some people think that you can be a believer and not be producing fruit leading to righteousness?

Yes. Sadly enough this is true.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But the point is, you burn the prunings in the pile with those branches you have cut off.

Yes the prunings get burned right along with the branches that were in the Vine, but did not produce fruit, and were cast out, gathered up and throw into the fire and burned.

The Point: The fruitless branches were at one time in Him, [for awhile] then they ended up thrown into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[ezra]

What those other folks are teaching, is once you believe, the all your sins past present and future have been forgiven, their is no need to confess your sin, to be forgiven.

can you show that post with them exact words?

 

[JLB]

can you show that post with them exact words?

Yes I can, however, will I go back through the threads and find where Freegrace said this.

No I won't.

However this is what I understand he believes. [edited]

I would guess that this is what you believe as well.

Do you believe and teach that once you believe, the all your sins past present and future have been forgiven, their is no need to confess your sin, to be forgiven?


JLB

 

[ezra]

I would guess that this is what you believe as well.

Do you believe and teach that once you believe, the all your sins past present and future have been forgiven, their is no need to confess your sin, to be forgiven?

hmmmm i would invite you to go back through all my post and read them over very careful . see i hate to say it this way. but i am going to.. your biggest problem is you refuse to see any scripture that say our salvation is secure in Christ. not one time i have i ever used the term osas or eternal security. if you want to believe that unless you dot every I cross every T . you will lose your salvation . when peter plainly wrote it was kept by the POWER OF GOD . i have noticed you never answered the question. have you ever woke up and thought you lost your salvation ? you adding to what i have posted .

 

[ezra]

Yes I can, however, will I go back through the threads and find where Freegrace said this.

No I won't.

why not i would like to see it. or better yet maybe freegrace will post for him self.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's what Paul is saying; build with the word of God. Build with the wisdom, knowledge and understanding/insight that we have been given.

I'll show you what's wrong with your interpretation. Read the bold parts:

5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; each (servant through whom you believed) will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another (fellow worker) is building on it.

See, up to this point it's about servants of God working in God's field and building, the Corinthians, and the servant's reward for doing so.

But then all of a sudden you break context and switch from this being about "fellow workers" laboring in the field and building of the Corinthians to the individual Corinthian laboring on himself. "Each man" suddenly becomes the field and building itself, not the "servant" and "worker" laboring in that field and building that it had been up to this point:

But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

In context, the 'each man' is still referring to God's servants and fellow workers laboring in the field and building of the Corinthians, but your interpretation suddenly ignores the context and without any context to do so changes "God's fellow workers" in vs. 9 to the individual Corinthian himself and his own labor on himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

your biggest problem is you refuse to see any scripture that say our salvation is secure in Christ.

I know you're talking to JLB, but just to make sure you know I'm not open to that accusation:

" we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us" (Hebrews 6:18-20 NASB)

The promise is sure. But that promise is secured by faith. You have to have faith to have the efficacy of the Priest and Sacrifice that has gone behind the curtain on our behalf. You have to "take hold of the hope set before us" in order to have the hope set before you. We do that through our faith in that hope. No faith--no taking hold of the hope set before us.

if you want to believe that unless you dot every I cross every T . you will lose your salvation .

This is about having faith, not about sinless perfection --faith in God's forgiveness embodied in the Priest and Sacrifice that went behind the curtain for us in heaven. Faith solicits the efficacy of Christ's ministry behind the curtain, not works. It is the supremely successful and acceptable work of Christ behind the curtain that makes it a sure hope to place one's faith in.

This is not about works and being confident that our works have somehow solicited God's favor, and continuing favor in salvation. Our works are the result of our faith in the hope of Christ, not the thing that secures it. That's why the person who has no works of righteousness is not saved. He's showing that he does not have the faith that secures salvation all by itself apart from works, and which changes the person who has that faith into a new creation.

you will lose your salvation . when peter plainly wrote it was kept by the POWER OF GOD

...THROUGH FAITH. That's the part that's getting left out of the passage. We have God's power for the Day of Salvation through faith:

"Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

But some are insisting that you have that power without faith, making Peter's words meaningless. If the servant and worker of God working in his field and building adds people to the temple of God with this message that you still have God's power for salvation even if you lose your faith, and they abandon their faith thinking they're still okay with God, then you have built into God's kingdom those who can not, and will not, survive the fire of the end time Judgment and you will have no reward for your labor (them) in the kingdom to come. And you may well have condemned yourself to be destroyed because you destroyed the temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB).

 

[ezra]

I know you're talking to JLB, but just to make sure you know I'm not open to that accusation:

i feel like i am trying to ride a dead horse/ talk to a brick wall. { But some are insisting that you have that power without faith, making Peter's words meaningless.} most all have the faith yet they return back to the folly and show no signs of returning. you have sinned and fell short so have i. my whole point is we are secure .i do not preach osas or los .i preach a know so salvation