What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[JLB]

It is clear how much we disagree on how to understand Rom 6:23. Paul is contrasting the life of the unbeliever, who's wages of sin is (eternal) death with that of the believer, who has been given the gift of God, which is eternal life. Which is irrevocable, according to Rom 11:29.

That's just it, Romans 11:29 doesn't mention eternal life.

You have said (edited) that eternal life is irrevocable based on Romans 11;29, when Romans 11;29 does not have eternal life mentioned in that verse.

(edited)

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Eternal life is not mentioned in this verse.

Romans 6:23 is the end statement of Paul teaching the Roman Christians that because they are under grace, they are not to continue in their former sinful lifestyle, they were in before they came to be under grace.

• What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Romans 6:15

Paul then spells out plainly the consequences of being a slave again to sin, after they have been set free.
Paul does this by appealing to their "slave mindset", to that of a master and a slave.

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The consequences are unmistakable, as Paul lays out the two choices, with the two end result's of those choices, for these Roman Christians to whom Paul is writing.

• ...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey:

1.] whether of sin leading to death
or
2.] of obedience leading to righteousness


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

That's just it, Romans 11:29 doesn't mention eternal life.

You have said (edited) that eternal life is irrevocable based on Romans 11;29, when Romans 11;29 does not have eternal life mentioned in that verse.

(edited)

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Eternal life is not mentioned in this verse.

You've numerous times quoted Rom 6:23 and 11:29 together and lined through all the words except "eternal life" in 6:23 and "irrevocable" in 11:29, as if to show that I have ignored all the lined through words.

Well, let's examine all the words your posts have been ignoring in those two verses.

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

To boil it down a bit, together, these verses teach that the gift of God is eternal life, and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Romans 6:23 is the end statement of Paul teaching the Roman Christians that because they are under grace, they are not to continue in their former sinful lifestyle, they were in before they came to be under grace.

No argument.

Paul then spells out plainly the consequences of being a slave again to sin, after they have been set free.
Paul does this by appealing to their "slave mindset", to that of a master and a slave.

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The consequences are unmistakable, as Paul lays out the two choices, with the two end result's of those choices, for these Roman Christians to whom Paul is writing.

• ...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey:

1.] whether of sin leading to death
or
2.] of obedience leading to righteousness


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
JLB

So? 6:23 is a contrast between the status of an unbeliever with the status of a believer. You've not shown otherwise.

Unbelievers are in a state of spiritual death. Believers are in a state of eternal life.

The view that sin in the life of a believer results in spiritual death has not been defended from Scripture; only from opinion.

In fact, that view is refuted by Rom 11:29 which says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.

Therefore, it is impossible for one who has received the gift of eternal life, which is through faith in Christ, to lose eternal life, or experience the "second DEATH".

Jesus said it this way:
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Therefore, the view that one can lose the gift of eternal life is contrary to what Jesus taught.

The phrases "shall not perish" from 3;16 and "will never perish" from 10:28 are promises from Jesus. Who keeps His promises.

Therefore, it is impossible for anyone who has received the gift of eternal life to experience the lake of fire.

(edited by staff)

 

[smaller]

Both sides of this classic debate have flaws, which are inevitable in theology positions when understandings get lopsided to one side of the equation or another when both sides of the argument have scriptural merit.

What is beyond any dispute is that there is not one single named instance of any believer being eternally lost, as an example. So the position that this is true has no specific example that we can point to and derive this "so called fact" as it may apply to an individual believer.

I've provided a credible example from Paul, from the scriptures, many times at this site that SOLVES this debate. Paul gave it to us to SOLVE this debate and it can be SOLVED and RESOLVED by scripture, that is for those who WANT resolution. Some prefer to take only one side of the debate and argue it endlessly.

Here is Paul's example. I'm going to color and bold the TWO parties involved, just in case someone happens to accidentally see and actually understand the principle that is involved with "works being burned up."

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Anyone who is reading the above should be able to see these TWO parties.

"in the flesh, the messenger of Satan" is confirmed by Paul many times in many ways from scriptures. The supporting scriptures involved are these, in brief:

Mark 4:15, showing the entrance of Satan into the hearts of man. That's the baseline fact from Jesus, again showing the TWO parties involved. Not just one.

Mark 4:15 is identical to Paul's description of the fact of Mark 4:15 found in Romans 7:7-13, showing that where the Word of Law against lust is sown, every manner of concupiscence transpired IN Paul. This was brought about by the occupancy of sin dwelling in Paul's flesh, which Paul describes in Romans 7:17-21, showing that this indwelling sin, which sin John inextricably LINKS to the devil in 1 John 3:8, Paul describes as "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-20. Paul determines from this that evil is in fact present with him. It does not take a genius of christian theology to determine this:

That sin is demonic, that sin is an occupancy of the flesh, and that is it with us as it is with Paul, NO LONGER I. There is only one other party to the drama that we can point to if it is NOT PAUL, and that is the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh, which Paul shows us.

Further support for Paul's statements are found in Romans 9:18-24, where Paul AGAIN shows these same TWO parties in one lump called ME. Telling us that there is a vessel of honor, Paul, that will receive DIVINE MERCY, and another party, a vessel of dishonor, the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh that is scheduled for eternal termination. Paul affirms this yet again in Romans 11:8, showing that the blinded people of Israel had the identical problem. In Romans 11:8 this problem is called the spirit of slumber or stupor that was put upon the people to blind them and deafen them so they could not believe. Again we see TWO parties. The persons and the spirit of slumber that is put upon them. This also links perfectly to all the scripture citings above.

Paul again confirms that we as believers ourselves are to "purge" ourselves from the vessel of dishonor, the OTHER party to the equations, in 2 Tim. 2:21. Paul AGAIN confirms this identical position is/was our condition prior to belief in Eph. 2:2, showing that prior to believing, we were under the dominion of the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience, Satan. A party that is NOT US as believers, but is in fact THE DEVIL, Satan. Mark 4:15 confirms that the fowl(s) of the earth are in fact Satan and devils who blind people to the Gospel, are the spirit(s) of disobedience, and pinpoints this to Satan in Acts 26:18 and again in 2 Cor. 4:4 and shows that Israel had the same problems in 2 Cor. 3:14, because where the Word of the Old Testament was sown, they were BLINDED. And they were so because of the principle of Mark 4:15.

Now any one of you can pick up your Bible and figure this out for yourselves by reading it. But there is a real principle involved here and it is THIS. That if any person can NOT conceed to these facts and personally apply them, they are in fact BLINDED and CAN NOT see these facts because of the other party involved who can not TELL THE TRUTH and that does not allow "believers" to make this simple connection of their own sin to the devil.

In 2 Cor. 12:7 there is ONE PARTY, Paul, who can NOT BE LOST.

And also there is ONE PARTY who can not be SAVED and whose works WILL be burned up.

Now you have a theological solution to these matters. The nice part is that if you as a believer can't see it, God will save you anyway because there is a factual SCAPE GOAT that will suffer the eternal punishments for YOUR SIN, which really isn't yours anyway. It is the sin of the devils.

Now you heard the Gospel. Go do something with it for your unsaved neighbors. Love them. Resist the devils who blind them in their flesh.

This is the TWO EDGED SWORD that is delivered personally by God in Christ to any believer whom HE ELECTS to see these things.

WORD.

 

[FreeGrace]

Both sides of this classic debate have flaws, which are inevitable in theology positions when understandings get lopsided to one side of the equation or another when both sides of the argument have scriptural merit.

In the debate over whether one's salvation can be lost, there are only 2 positions: either one can lose salvation, or one cannot lose salvation. There is no other position.

And, the Bible cannot teach both positions, because that would demonstrate that the Bible, God's perfect Word, is internally contradicted. So, the Bible teaches ONLY 1 position, which forms the basis of debate.

So, how can "both sides have flaws", since one of the positions is the biblical position?

Oh, and the issue of one's salvation has nothing to do with the flesh. The flesh stays in the ground. It's the soul that is saved or not.

 

[FreeGrace]

I missed this part when addressing another part of your post:

Now you have a theological solution to these matters. The nice part is that if you as a believer can't see it, God will save you anyway because there is a factual SCAPE GOAT that will suffer the eternal punishments for YOUR SIN, which really isn't yours anyway. It is the sin of the devils.

Just for clarification, does this mean that devils are "a factual SCAPE GOAT for our sins, and will suffer eternal punishments for OUR SIN????

In the OT, the scape goat represented the work of Christ on the cross, bearing the sins of mankind.

Consider this verse:
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

How do you reconcile your comments with this verse, which teaches that Jesus Christ bore our sins on the cross, not any devils.

The fact that they will suffer eternal punishment is irrelevant to our sins, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:15 - For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

1 Cor 8:11 - For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.

 

[smaller]

I missed this part when addressing another part of your post:

Just for clarification, does this mean that devils are "a factual SCAPE GOAT for our sins, and will suffer eternal punishments for OUR SIN????

In the OT, the scape goat represented the work of Christ on the cross, bearing the sins of mankind.

Consider this verse:
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

How do you reconcile your comments with this verse, which teaches that Jesus Christ bore our sins on the cross, not any devils.

The fact that they will suffer eternal punishment is irrelevant to our sins, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:15 - For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

1 Cor 8:11 - For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.

Christ died for our sins. That doesn't mean Christ died for devils, saves devils, forgives devils or forgives a single sin. And yes, the devil IS implicated in SIN. 1 John 3:8 and Mark 4:15 are examples of sin in connection with the devil.

Technically speaking not ONE SINGLE SIN is forgiven on their side of the ledgers.

 

[WIP]

Please provide the Scripture to back up your points and counterpoints per the Forum Guidelines.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you read my prior post you should be able to derive two entirely different fates to two entirely different parties.

Sure. Those who believe are saved and will go to heaven, and those who don't believe and are not saved and will go to the lake of fire.

The Bible does teach two entirely different fates to two different parties without any uncertainty.

Of course there is no uncertainty in what the Bible teaches.

Or the logic you deploy is missing a critical component, the other parties.

Salvation is personal between a human being and God. No other parties. Or party animals either.

I gave an example of one flaw in both sides of the debate. There are other flaws to the debate as well that scriptures deploy to destroy the "works salvation" camp that you don't seem to see or appreciate.

What I totally disagree with is the notion that the biblical position has flaws. And I don't recall any example of either side of the debate having flaws, though I am fully aware of the flaws of the loss of salvation side.

Romans 11:25-31 is that example, where enemies of the Gospel are saved, even though they are enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to unbelieving Israel.

v.28 refutes your idea of what "enemies of the gospel" refers to. I suggest more study in order to understand what "enemies of the gospel" refers to.

I doubt even you can manage to stretch your theological box that far.

Regardless of another example of snarkiness, I don't have a "theological box". I have the Bible.

 

[JLB]

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't what that is but here is Romans 6:23 -
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


The two choices for the believer, with the two end result's of those choices, are plainly written out here:

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey:

• whether of sin leading to death

or

• obedience leading to righteousness

Paul reiterates these same two choices again in Romans 6:23.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The person that is given eternal life in the end is the person who has chosen to become an obedient slave of God, and His righteousness.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:22-23


Paul say the same thing in Romans 2 -

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:4-8

and again in Romans 8 -

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13





JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Christ died for our sins.

And that is the only issue.

That doesn't mean Christ died for devils, saves devils, forgives devils or forgives a single sin.

<sigh> Why is this still being brought up, since it is irrelevant to the salvation of humanity??

And yes, the devil IS implicated in SIN. 1 John 3:8 and Mark 4:15 are examples of sin in connection with the devil.

I never said he wasn't implicated. But from your own post seemed to be the idea that devils pay for our sins.
"God will save you anyway because there is a factual SCAPE GOAT that will suffer the eternal punishments for YOUR SIN, which really isn't yours anyway. It is the sin of the devils."

Whatever is fantasized as "the sin of the devils" has NO bearing on man's sins. Or his salvation.

Technically speaking not ONE SINGLE SIN is forgiven on their side of the ledgers.

So, who is the "their side"??

Please ensure that you're clear about who is being referred to. Otherwise, it's impossible to follow any of your posts.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace said: ↑
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't what that is but here is Romans 6:23 -
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

It appears that you're confused somewhat. I quoted Rom 6:23 and your response is "I don't (know) what that is but here is Rom 6:23", at which point you quote it as well.

The two choices for the believer, with the two end result's of those choices, are plainly written out here:

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey:

• whether of sin leading to death

or

• obedience leading to righteousness

• You've not shown nor proven that these choices are eternal in nature.

Paul reiterates these same two choices again in Romans 6:23.

No, he didn't. He contrasted the state of the unbeliever who doesn't have eternal life with the state of the believer, who HAS eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

If these represent 2 choices for the believer and each choice has an eternal result, what did Jesus Christ die for? If a believer will go to hell for "the wages of sin", it seems that Christ died needlessly.

Please explain what His death was for then. I cannot figure out your theology. But I do know that Christ did die for our sins. He paid the penalty for them, so how can one who has had their sins paid for, be sent to hell for sins? Isn't that double jeopardy?

The person that is given eternal life in the end is the person who has chosen to become an obedient slave of God, and His righteousness.

The continuing error here is in the notion that eternal life is given "in the end". That is false, according to the Bible.

John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
1 Jn 5:11 - And the testimony is this, that God HAS given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 Jn 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:4-8

And Paul proved in 3:20 that NO ONE will be justified (saved) by fulfilling the Law.
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

and again in Romans 8 -

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

Where is the proof that the word "die" refers to eternal death? I need more than one's opinion. I need evidence from Scripture. Anyone can interpret any word they want in any way they want.

I know that Rom 8:12-13 does not refer to eternal death, because Paul also taught:
1. the gift of God is eternal life
2. God's gifts are irrevocable
3. Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[smaller]

Sure. Those who believe are saved and will go to heaven, and those who don't believe and are not saved and will go to the lake of fire.

I don't recall that any of us are called into the eternal judgment seat for other people. I think we can all make the easy determination, that the devil and his messengers will be in the LoF. Rev. 20:10. And we should also be able to make the determination that that event hasn't happened yet.

Of course there is no uncertainty in what the Bible teaches.

We all see in part and as through glass darkly, so any issues are not a scriptural problem but a problem that factually resides within readers. 1 Cor. 13:12.

Salvation is personal between a human being and God. No other parties. Or party animals either.

I'd suggest a read of Romans 8:20-23 to see just how "encompassing" the end game is meant to be.

What I totally disagree with is the notion that the biblical position has flaws.

Never made that claim. What I did say is that both sides of the debate of OSAS and "freewill/works" salvation have serious flaws and neither side can run credibly through the gauntlet of scriptures. And showed why, scripturally, in brief, in my first post.

And I don't recall any example of either side of the debate having flaws, though I am fully aware of the flaws of the loss of salvation side.

You may want to reword that statement because it makes no sense.

v.28 refutes your idea of what "enemies of the gospel" refers to. I suggest more study in order to understand what "enemies of the gospel" refers to.

Paul is quite explicit in the conveyance of that mystery. That enemies of the Gospel shall be saved as it pertains to "all of Israel." Romans 11:25-32. All of Israel by necessity includes enemies of the Gospel which are specifically identified as such by Paul.

I think we'd both agree that "works" that can not stand the fire test are to be burned up, that believers WILL suffer loss, but shall be saved. 1 Cor. 3:13-16 and we both agree that believers, once saved, can not be lost or come under condemnation. But the flaw in your sight is that Divine ETERNAL ADVERSE Judgment can not apply to (what any believer currently is in the flesh) and I showed why that was not true and can't be true according to the scriptures. None of which you cared to pick up on.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said: ↑
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It appears that you're confused somewhat. I quoted Rom 6:23 and your response is "I don't (know) what that is but here is Rom 6:23", at which point you quote it as well.

• You've not shown nor proven that these choices are eternal in nature.

No, he didn't. He contrasted the state of the unbeliever who doesn't have eternal life with the state of the believer, who HAS eternal life.


If these represent 2 choices for the believer and each choice has an eternal result, what did Jesus Christ die for? If a believer will go to hell for "the wages of sin", it seems that Christ died needlessly.

Please explain what His death was for then. I cannot figure out your theology. But I do know that Christ did die for our sins. He paid the penalty for them, so how can one who has had their sins paid for, be sent to hell for sins? Isn't that double jeopardy?


The continuing error here is in the notion that eternal life is given "in the end". That is false, according to the Bible.

John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
1 Jn 5:11 - And the testimony is this, that God HAS given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 Jn 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


And Paul proved in 3:20 that NO ONE will be justified (saved) by fulfilling the Law.
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


Where is the proof that the word "die" refers to eternal death? I need more than one's opinion. I need evidence from Scripture. Anyone can interpret any word they want in any way they want.

The continuing error here is that the notion of eternal life is something outside of knowing Him.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Eternal life is "in" Christ.

Those who are in Him, and remain in Him, have eternal life.

Those who are in Him for a while, then are cast out of Him, no longer have eternal life.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

You continue to err, because you think it's impossible to be cast out of Him.

Like a branch is connected to the Vine, and is cast out, or broken off, which means removed from the Vine.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

I know that Rom 8:12-13 does not refer to eternal death, because Paul also taught:
1. the gift of God is eternal life
2. God's gifts are irrevocable
3. Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

1. The whole verse states: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



JLB

 

[Mike]

Some of you will be restricted from posting in this thread if you continue to direct your criticism at others. You know who you are. You are ranting against each other, and that has to stop.

 

[smaller]

<sigh> Why is this still being brought up, since it is irrelevant to the salvation of humanity??

It is entirely relevant to understand Gods Very Real Adverse Eternal Judgements and how they DO apply to the believers in their current state. Hebrews 6:2.

Part of the problem in these types of observations/discussions is that we are always prone to direct scriptures on the dire wrath/eternal torment side of the ledgers only to unsaved people or worse, to saved people. There are scriptural harmony impossibilities with that approach. So believers end up taking sides on the matters. I've always looked for solutions and remedies between these factions in the interests of peace and harmony while maintaining integrity to ALL the scriptures.

I never said he wasn't implicated.

And that is exactly the point of observation. IF the devil IS implicated in sins, and that should be beyond question, THEN the eternal damnation judgment scriptures apply to the current standing/state of every flesh man. I hope you learn to appreciate the logic as it solves the problem that the "works camps" side of the ledgers of scripture misunderstand and MISS-apply. Both parties, both sides of the debate fail to bring the other party into the conversations. And that is exactly where the fault in both forms of reasoning are shown.

It is entirely possible, in fact it is totally possible in fact, that believers are eternally saved, and that they sin, which they do, and their sin is directly from demonic influences over the flesh.

Paul is very clear about this aspect for himself, from Mark 4:15, from the Law, from Romans 7:21 showing evil present with him (WHICH evil/sin GOD does not just ignore,) from 2 Cor. 12:7 showing two parties, Paul and the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh, from 1 Tim. 1:15 showing Paul was the chief of sinners, which he obviously derives from having to wrestle with temptations of the tempter in his own flesh, Gal. 4:14, from his deriving from this that the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit in Gal. 5:17, from his dictates to "purge" ourselves from the vessel of dishonor addressed to believers in 2 Tim. 2:20-21, etc. It's a long list.

And what both sides of this debate can "take away" from this is that there are TWO simultaneous truths that apply to every believer. That the believer is eternally saved, and that the devils who influence ALL of our flesh will pay the penalty of eternal damnation without any uncertainty.

Not only this, but this evil present with us factor, which is undoubtedly demonic in nature, is also the direct cause of Gods Chastisements and the source of our tribulations. Not from other people applying them to us (the common mistaken application by most believers), but from Gods Factual Adverse Dealings with the evil present with us, currently, in this life, in our flesh. Heb. 12:8, Acts 14:22.

God is not and will not be mocked in Divine Judgments on either side of the ledgers. IF we have all been bound by God to disobedience in order to come to know and understand Gods Mercy, (Romans 11:32) then we should be cognizant of that reality. God can make this BINDING worse for any of us in order to prove the point. John 5:14, Luke 13:3-5.

But from your own post seemed to be the idea that devils pay for our sins.

You seem to acknowledge the "involvement" of the devil with sin, which is a locked in fact from 1 John 3:8, but also seem to refuse the fact that devils who do so influence our flesh in the forms of deception, Word theft from our hearts, various and abundant forms of lusts and temptations are not a factor in understandings of how the eternal adverse judgment scriptures DO apply to our current state in the flesh, and that means that what we bear in our flesh, the adversary, the adverse INFLUENCER that we deal with in our flesh will have the eternal damnation scriptures turn out to be a reality. And yes, they will pay, without question. And yes, these scriptures do apply to us when the other party is on the table and not just us as individuals, eternally saved.

When we speak of Divine Adverse Judgments they DO apply to believers when we see these scriptures directed properly. Jesus made a clear statement of fact to all of us in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, that we, man, will live by EVERY WORD of God.

The question of the day is, IF this is true, and it is, THEN how might every Word that we don't like to hear, really apply.

The other party, our enemies, our adversary, is the necessary party(s) to satisfy MAKING every Word apply to every believer. Yes, every Word.

The works of the devil WILL be burned up and destroyed, beyond any doubt, by God. Again, 1 John 3:8 shows us that this is exactly Jesus' Ultimate Intention. And as such there is little use trying to defray from how these scriptures apply to US in the flesh.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Sure. Those who believe are saved and will go to heaven, and those who don't believe and are not saved and will go to the lake of fire."

I don't recall that any of us are called into the eternal judgment seat for other people.

My statement does not lead to such a conclusion.

I think we can all make the easy determination, that the devil and his messengers will be in the LoF. Rev. 20:10.

And what does that have to do with one's salvation?

\And we should also be able to make the determination that that event hasn't happened yet.

imo, irrelevant to our salvation. All fallen angels were sentenced to the lake of fire before mankind came on the scene. Matt 25:41.

We all see in part and as through glass darkly, so any issues are not a scriptural problem but a problem that factually resides within readers. 1 Cor. 13:12.

Sorry, but I can't make any sense out of this.

I'd suggest a read of Romans 8:20-23 to see just how "encompassing" the end game is meant to be.

Instead of suggesting something, why not rather just spell out what the issue is.

I think we'd both agree that "works" that can not stand the fire test are to be burned up, that believers WILL suffer loss, but shall be saved. 1 Cor. 3:13-16 and we both agree that believers, once saved, can not be lost or come under condemnation.

So far, so good.

But the flaw in your sight is that Divine ETERNAL ADVERSE Judgment can not apply to (what any believer currently is in the flesh) and I showed why that was not true and can't be true according to the scriptures.

What is meant by "Divine eternal adverse judgment"? What is it, and why is it important in your view? Until there is quite a bit of clarification, they are just words to me. And mean nothing.

None of which you cared to pick up on.

For the reason above.

 

[FreeGrace]

The continuing error here is that the notion of eternal life is something outside of knowing Him.

Why would anyone make that error of judgment from my posts?? I've never said this, nor even suggested it.

Eternal life is given when one believes in Christ. Do you agree or not?

Eternal life is "in" Christ.

That's been my point all along.

Those who are in Him, and remain in Him, have eternal life.

I've shown from Eph 1;13,14 that the Holy Spirit places the believer "in Him", and is the seal of ownership on the believer. Therefore, any idea that a believer somehow can "exit" from being "in Him" is quite wrong. There are no Scriptures that teach that this particular sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit can be opened or broken. So let's not bog down the discussion by comparing to any other type of seal.

And Eph 1:14 even tells us what the believer is sealed FOR (purpose of sealing): ''who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

I also like how the NIV says it: "who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

Seems quite clear: the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a deposit, which guarantees our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession (His own children). Very clearly a statement of eternal security.

However, if this "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" doesn't refer to eternal security, what does it refer to?

Those who are in Him for a while, then are cast out of Him, no longer have eternal life.

There are no verses to support this theory of being "cast out of Him". [edited]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

You continue to err, because you think it's impossible to be cast out of Him.

Because there are NO versses that teach that any believer can be "cast out of Him" for any reason. That's why.

The key to the verse is the word "abide". That is about fellowship, not relationship.

Please explain how a child can be "cast out of relationship" with his birth parents. We know that's impossible.

But, what IS possible, is for fellowship between parent and child to be broken.

1. The whole verse states: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
JLB

How can sin result in a believer going to hell? Christ already died for all sin. Unless that isn't part of your theology.

Since Christ died for our sins, we CANNOT be held in judgment over them, for they HAVE BEEN judged already.

Jesus said this: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24

[edited] Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life and DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT. Totally opposite to your view.

I do not know how your theology gets around these words of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is entirely relevant to understand Gods Very Real Adverse Eternal Judgements and how they DO apply to the believers in their current state. Hebrews 6:2.

Until "very real adverse eternal judgments" is defined and explained how it applies or is relevant to one's salvation, there can't be any meaningful discussion.

 

[smaller]

Until "very real adverse eternal judgments" is defined and explained how it applies or is relevant to one's salvation, there can't be any meaningful discussion.

Showed this prior. Here it is again:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

There are two parties it the above statement of fact from Paul. Paul, the child of God, eternally saved. And the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh, scheduled for eternal damnation in the LoF. It is impossible to see only Paul unless we ourselves are also blinded by that which is in our own flesh, making us refuse to see the obvious.

The works of Satan and his messengers will be destroyed, yes, even those sins of believers, and Satan and devils will be in the LoF forever and ever. There is no use in seeing ONLY PAUL in the equation when Paul himself shows us otherwise.

We will never excuse a single sin because we understand it's source and cause is demonic.

Few believers care to hear that their own precious flesh is in fact contrary to and against the Spirit as Gal. 5:17 presents. But this is a fact and it is so because of the lusts and temptations therein which are demonically sourced. Mark 4:15, Romans 7:21, 1 John 3:8 and many many other citings.

Do the eternal damnation scriptures apply to a believer? Absolutely, when we have accurate sights. Because these scriptures are never just "about us."

IF we don't have this understanding, then we are only left with "evil" Paul. That won't cut the scriptural mustard.

 

[bcbsr]

What gets burned up is the history of your life regarding worthless activities, in accordance with the New Covenant promise
"Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Heb 10:17