I apologize if I offended you, but please look at these two quotes for just a second. Is it natural for anyone to be born of a virgin or to be raised from the dead? Are miracles in general natural?
Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature - St. Augustine
But of course, science never has denied that miracles exist.
Do you see the conflicting views you've presented to me?
Christians have understood why these aren't conflicting for over 1500 years.
Since we're on the subject, are you implying by saying:
I find it hard to believe you don't know it's offensive to ask a Christian something like that. Maybe it's an issue in your church, but it's not questioned in mine.
that a true believer in Christ can have doubts regarding these things?
Not in my church, they don't.
Next point, "Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable."
Let me broaden this real quick:
"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
My point in doing this is to point out two things.
The text specifically states that what "is revealed" is the wrath of God against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, what is "clearly seen" are the invisible things of Him, even His eternal power and Godhead.
Of course. Paul is talking about seeing His power and majesty in the world. Scripture is not the only way to know about God. Even those who don't know about Him, understand certain things, and this is why they are without excuse if they violate natural law, to which all men are held accountable.
Also, it states that the things that may be known of God is manifest in men and that God has showed these things to us.
Second thing, is it stated that creation is not fallen in any way?
God says it's "very good." I agree.
Let me phrase it this way, are Christians the only "good people" out there?
None of us are truly good. We are all sinners and fall short. But God is merciful. This is why His Son died for us.
I mean are we the only people who do anything beneficial towards other people, for the environment, or in any other thing?
As I said. Natural law. God holds all of us to that, even if a man has never heard the Gospel.
Let's assume what you say is true:
The world is very good. God said so, and never changed that. It is man who is fallen.
The text says that "that which may be known of God is manifest in them." Did you know that God said in Genesis 1:26 and 27, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."?
Jesus says that God is a spirit. And He says a spirit has no body. So we can be assured it's not a physical likeness. We are like God in knowing good and evil, among other things.
Can you look at even the most evil of people such as maybe Hitler and see a remnant of this "made in the image of God" thing?
Hitler was quite kind to animals, which is certainly commendable. When a natural gas explosion in Texas killed most of the children in a school there, he sent a very kind letter of condolence to the town. The banality of evil is something we need to keep in mind. Hitler, in his own mind, likely thought that he was a kind person who had to do hard things.
If you can't, how about someone like Opera or Ghondi?
Even Mother Theresa had doubts at times. None of us is wholly evil; none of us is wholly good.
You don't agree with this, I know that. However, I'll use it anyways. The flood which wiped out "man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air," shows the wrath of God against "the wickedness of man." A simple Google search can show all of us just how many examples in creation there are of showing the trinity, the power, the wisdom, the gospel, and so even the people of unreached tribes and people groups are without excuse when at the judgment.
Remember, it is God's will that none be lost. If he creates a man in North Korea, where it's a crime to even mention Jesus, it would be inconsistent with His intent, if he sent such people to Hell.
Here's a story a missionary told me, told to him by a young man. This young man grew up in North Korea, and never knew religion. But he began to see that something was missing in his life. One day, alone in a field, God touched him and he fell to his knees, giving himself to the unknown God.
Famine caused him to flee in desperation to the South, where he finally realized Who it was that touched him in that field. In your opinion, was he saved when he surrendered his life to God or later when he finally realized Who it was?
Rather than to continue to go in circles, Brother, I'm pulling out of this conversation. I've said everything I've been led to say, and in due time whatever the Spirit is trying to do through this will happen.
As always.
So, what kind of work do you do?
I taught in college for a while, then worked as an ergonomist, analyzing worker motions and stresses, to minimize injuries and maximize output. I retired, got tired of that, and now I'm teaching again.
I'm not a scientist at all, but learning from creation is fascinating to me. Anyways, I just hang garage doors.
I once knew an auto body repairman who had managed to teach himself more biology than most college graduates know. Libraries are free.
Yep.
