What makes some people stop being a Christian?

[lamplady]

What?

God gave the world the free gift of Jesus - they knew that - who can turn their backs on the greatest love?

Can't get my head round those who believed for years - like three to fifty years or more suddenly or gradually stop believing? It just doesn't make any sense? Does it?

 

[coffeeelover]

I believed when I was a kid. Then I grew up.

 

[Theofilus]

I would embrace Christianity, if it weren't for Christians. - Mahatma Gandhi

There's your answer.

 

[theLords]

I would embrace Christianity, if it weren't for Christians. - Mahatma Gandhi

There's your answer.

It's so sad, isn't it> Ghandi's potential went untapped. Who knows what he could of done as a Christian serving Jesus. But the cold, snobbish words of a few Christians murdered that potential.


I also think it's important to note that not everyone who calls them self a Christian is a believer. Many go their whole lives thinking they believe then when the time comes to be tested, they find they never really believed in the first place. (not to be confused with back slidden Christians! sometimes true believers fall to sin for a season and are brought back to Christ)

The most important factor of someone leaving the faith is not having had a relationship with Christ.

What is the #1 purpose of being a Christian?

Philippians 3:10a

"That I may know Him..."

Getting to know the Lord, having an intimate relationship with Him, knowing His likes and dislikes, enjoying His friendship, dining in fellowship (all that good stuff) is the #1 purpose of a Christian. Many Christians think it's about being "good" and "serving" the Lord, but the Bible shows otherwise...

Matthew 7:21-23

I Never Knew You

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

 

[abrown9]

I would have to respectfully disagree that Gandhi's potential went untapped! He accomplished acts that were solely for the good of the world and infused with such tremendous amounts of love and compassion. He was a truly moral person regardless of his belief system.

Anyways, I guess I could offer some insight into this topic as I was a "believer" turned "unbeliever". I identified myself as a Christian as a youth simply because that was what I was brought up as and where I received my spiritual education. I would have to admit, however, that I never was what one might call a "True Believer".

My "revelation", if you could call it that, was the understanding that people's morality and compassion had nothing to do with their belief system. There are some amazing Christians and some downright awful ones. The same goes for any belief system including those who have no religious belief system whatsoever! I came to realize that a person's moral compass is their own subjective reality, and no firmly entrenched set of beliefs can exactly match my own view of the world. Surely Jesus's message of love was and is the right message, but it seems like an obvious conclusion to come to when you examine the world and the people inhabiting it.

Basically, my own experiences have led me to not believe in a higher power and no doctrine firmly fits with my own subjective view of morality. I can accept Jesus wholeheartedly as a philosopher, but not as the mouthpiece of a divine power that I should base my entire life on.

 

[theLords]

I would have to respectfully disagree that Gandhi's potential went untapped! He accomplished acts that were solely for the good of the world and infused with such tremendous amounts of love and compassion. He was a truly moral person regardless of his belief system.

That's fine. My words were intended for Christians from my Christian perspective. I understand that your (atheists? agnostic? deists?) Non-Christian perspective differs from mine.

Sometimes I forget non Christians roam this board

 

[abrown9]

If I had to pick a word to describe my beliefs I guess I would say non-religious. I think the technical term is agnostic atheist or naturalist, but I don't really like the term atheist because it says something definite about the non-existence of a higher power. There really is no evidence one way or another, but the lack of empirical evidence leads me to believe that the world is likely how we view it with our own eyes.

No doubt it seems weird that a non-Christian would come to a website called "Christianforums.net", but Christianity has had a huge influence on how my country and the whole western world operates. I firmly believe in a complete education and my theological knowledge is lacking considerably. I'm signed up for a introductory theology course at my next semester but in the meantime I'm just trying to pick up anything I can! If my posts seem to congregate around science/potential disagreements its only because I have nothing to offer to the discussion in other threads! I'll likely have a few questions though once I've worked my way around.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I think it has more to do with how the Bible is extremely exclusionary, demands us to basically give everything up, and maybe we'll get something awesome.


That and the Bible was written before Modern Science and sociology, so some things don't add up.


Mix that with some people who are willing to distort sociology, biology, psychology, and cosmology in order to straw man people to get them to fallow Jesus is also very common, not to mention that unless you distort or leave out massive chunks of information, Jesus shows up no where outside of the Bible in History, and there are reasons to even doubt the existence of the disciples.

 

[Ashua]

Lusts and desires beget rebellion.
Rebellion begets transgression.
Transgression begets fear of accountability.
Fear of accountability begets excuses and attempts at rationalization.
Excuses and attempts at rationalization begets auto-theism. "I am the I AM." complex.

That is a common scenario and recipe for apostasy.

 

[theLords]

When I was a christian, i didnt know I was faking it - I really though I beleived, but according theLords and others who know me better than i know myself, I was in fact faking it, I never actually experienced any love for Jesus(AS) or any of that - it was all an illusion I concocted in my head - luckily, I have them to tell me what I beleived and what I didnt.

The Bible gives a clear answer as to why people fall away. What you fail to understand is: I WAS YOU. So on top of the Words in the Bible, I have experience that has made those words LIFE in my walk with the Lord.

You don't think that I also "believed" when I called myself a Christian? You think that when I would read the Bible and pray to God that I was faking it? Do you think that I wasted my time and my tears because I was a 15 year old masochist?

You and I left the faith around the same age.

I am now on the other side of the grass. Now, that I am on the other side of the grass I can SEE. I can clearly see that I was not a true believer. What I had then and what I have now, DO NOT EVEN COMPARE.

You never had a relationship with Christ. Sure, you served Him, and prayed, and read the Bible, and did all the things that good little Christians are supposed to do but you never knew Him. If you had known Him you would have given your life for Him before leaving Him. If you had known Him doubts about the Bible would have never led you to become an atheists.

Knowing Him is at the heart of a believers faith in Him.

John 10:29
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

So tell me, 15/16 year old MA who is a Christian, why does the Bible say that no one can snatch a believer out of Jesus' hands. What is Jesus saying.

 

[theLords]

I never transgressed, but I did fear being held accountable for not obeying the Holy Spirit

If you were a Christian who knew the Word you would know why this statement is wrong on so many levels.

 

[theLords]

First off - Im not an atheist, but that was probaly a mistake

You became an atheists before you became a Muslim, right? You said that you believed the Bible was corrupted before you became a Muslim. So you went from, Christian, to atheists (I suppose agnostic is a better term) to Muslim. You stopped believing in the Truth of the Bible. So did I. I believe in the Bible because of Christ. I don't believe in Christ because of the Bible. There's a major difference there.

Second - I never abandoned Jesus(AS) - I look forward to serving him in the future - I never lost my love for Jeus(AS) - I love him more today then I did when I was christian - I love him, because I obey him, I worship the God he worshipped.

I also love Jesus more now as a believer, then when I was a "Christian."

Matthew 15:8
These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me.

Third - I didnt "do all the things a little christian was supposed to do" I had no reason to go through the motions, I had no parents or friends pushing me towards christianity - I did it all and felt it all deep in my heart - so you want proof that your understanding of who and what God is is wrong - I am that proof, because I was 100% christian in my heart and soul - and my devotion to obeying God lead me away from Shirk and towards Jesus(AS)

You said that your dad was a pastor and because of that you spent alot of time in the Church. If you were 100% Christian then you would have known the Lord Jesus. You would known Him and never left Him. You would be a Christian! No one can snatch a believer out of Jesus' hands. NO ONE. I know this with all of my heart. I know exactly what you mean when you say you were Christian in your heart, because SO WAS I. I loved the Lord and wanted to worship Him and obey Him.

Now that I am a true believer, I can see! I can see! Do you understand that concept? I can see the Truth. I can see that I was never a true believer. Did I think I was. I sure did, but my truth was subjective as evidenced by my apostasy. Now, as a believer, my truth is absolute. You lost faith in the Bible and Jesus long before you became a Muslim.

 

[theLords]

And , yet again, you TELL me what was in my heart, and you TELL me how devout I was - you make claims only God can make

What you fail to understand is: I WAS YOU

Does an alcoholic recognize another alcoholic?

Does a sex fiend recognize another sex fiend?

Does a junkie recognize another junkie?

There is a reason the Lord sends ex-Muslims to evangalize Muslims, and why He sends rape victims to counsel rape victims, and why recovered alcoholics minister to alcoholics.

I did not state I could read your thoughts, nor do I doubt that you were sincere. But emotions and feelings does not a relationship with Christ make.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Lusts and desires beget rebellion.
Rebellion begets transgression.
Transgression begets fear of accountability.
Fear of accountability begets excuses and attempts at rationalization.
Excuses and attempts at rationalization begets auto-theism. "I am the I AM." complex.

That is a common scenario and recipe for apostasy.

No, this is just the "people just want to sin" claim presented differently.

The entire thing hinges on people already believing, which isn't the case. Claiming people secretly still believe when they say they don't is just dishonest and attempt to blame the person for the failure of the lack of evidence to support the claim presented to them. Its nothing more then that.

 

[MisterLogic]

People stop being christian for many reasons, the main one is that they discover a very simple concept, that concept is called Logic.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Does an alcoholic recognize another alcoholic?

Does a sex fiend recognize another sex fiend?

Does a junkie recognize another junkie?

No no no, big misconception here. Junkies and alcoholics can relate to each other in some ways but not all, the only way they can relate is the drug of choice, otherwise no.

The sex fiend thing isn't applicable since the studies on sex itself are very very complex, and its usually very specific acts themselves that bring people together, and even then its very cliquish.

There is a reason the Lord sends ex-Muslims to evangalize Muslims, and why He sends rape victims to counsel rape victims, and why recovered alcoholics minister to alcoholics.

I think you don't realize that the people sent out to help others have had special training. Even then, it dose not always work. An addict has to want to quit, to quit. Same with personal religious stuff. A person can relate to subject matter, but not to a person directly.

 

[Ashua]

Ive been trying to think of how this formula applies to my situation and I cant
My Lusts and desires did not lead me to Islam, a religion which teaches the supression of even more lusts and desires than christianity
I never rebelled - I let the Holy Spirit guide me
I never transgressed, but I did fear being held accountable for not obeying the Holy Spirit
I did make many excuses why Is houldnt follow the Holy spirit in His attempt to lead away from modern christianity, but eventually I stopped rationalizing and sbmitted to Him, allowed him into my heart, allowed Him to show me the truth.
I never lost faith in God, I never felt that I was "I AM", during my entire "apostacy" process, I continuely begged Him for guidance and recognized His authority over me and all of creation.

So, again, I think its on a case by case basis.

And here is what I said:

That is a common scenario and recipe for apostasy.

A common scenario. Not the only scenario.

As for the never transgressed part, it's already been squarely addressed.

 

[Ashua]

No, this is just the "people just want to sin" claim presented differently.

The entire thing hinges on people already believing, which isn't the case. Claiming people secretly still believe when they say they don't is just dishonest and attempt to blame the person for the failure of the lack of evidence to support the claim presented to them. Its nothing more then that.

"The entire thing hinges on people already believing..."

We are talking about apostates per the title. An apostate is one who abandons his pre-existing faith. If you never believed, you aren't an apostate.

Now, you went on to add that claiming they still secretly believe after renouncing faith -- sure some genuinely do not continue to believe. Some genuinely do or at least doubt their own stance.

Charles Darwin wrote that aboard the Beagle, his faith slowly vanished in such a gradual way that he never felt anxiety. This does not nullify the fact that many (not all as I stated) DO arrive at atheism based on motivation of unaccountability, and discouragement at their own past. This is a common path towards apostasy. Where there is only ONE narrow road leading to everlasting life, their are, paradoxically many paths leading away from it.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

"The entire thing hinges on people already believing..."

We are talking about apostates per the title. An apostate is one who abandons his pre-existing faith. If you never believed, you aren't an apostate.

Same thing applies to Apostates. Someone might simply not believe anymore. To claim they where never saved is to speak for the person and to strawman them.

Now, you went on to add that claiming they still secretly believe after renouncing faith -- sure some genuinely do not continue to believe. Some genuinely do or at least doubt their own stance.

Then I'm right.

Charles Darwin wrote that aboard the Beagle, his faith slowly vanished in such a gradual way that he never felt anxiety.

Stop, before we go any further, have you read the entirety of his beagle Journal, or are you quoting from an apologetics site?

This does not nullify the fact that many (not all as I stated) DO arrive at atheism based on motivation of unaccountability, and discouragement at their own past. This is a common path towards apostasy.

Unless you have hard evidence for this, its just your opinion. To state it as fact, is dishonest.

Where there is only ONE narrow road leading to everlasting life, their are, paradoxically many paths leading away from it.

To bad there is no way to physically prove which road it is without violating God's own "faith" position.

 

[Ashua]

Same thing applies to Apostates. Someone might simply not believe anymore. To claim they where never saved is to speak for the person and to strawman them.

Then I'm right.

Stop, before we go any further, have you read the entirety of his beagle Journal, or are you quoting from an apologetics site?

Unless you have hard evidence for this, its just your opinion. To state it as fact, is dishonest. To bad there is no way to physically prove which road it is without violating God's own "faith" position.

1. You're half-right. Just like how you are half wrong. There are many reasons for apostasy, and one rather common reason is the one I stated.

2. No I have not. Have you? You can let your guard down. That reference to Darwin's personal deviation doesn't do anything to boost any creationist argument to my knowledge. It is a simple fact. The story of how a (well known) atheist eased out of his former conviction and an evidence that he did not do so because he wanted to go about sinning without consequence. It actually helps your case. (Although I have heard stories of deathbed repentances.. not that I'm saying. just saying.)

If that was my intention, (to distort Darwin for a creationist perspective) I would have just did this:

The late Sir Julian Huxley, once the world's leading evolution "expert", and head of the United Nations Educational Scientific Cultural Organization (UNESCO), said he believed that the reason so many scientists, himself included, embraced the idea of evolution was "because the idea of God interfered with our sexual mores."

Evolutionist and philosopher Bertrand Russell said that getting rid of the idea of God "freed me up to my erotic desires."

:-D :-D :-D

If you are suggesting that people do not at all defect to apostasy because they don't want to worry about facing a righteous judge, then you are being dishonest. I'm sure you could find such testimonies very easily if you tried. In fact, those nice little quotes you tempted me to post kind of confirm it, don't they? You could also flip the coin and ask apostates of atheism. Many of them explain that they didn't like the idea of being accountable.

You could go in a big circle and say the same thing you said when you thought I was distorting Darwin's experience even though I was only referencing it to concede to your point, but I'm certainly not the one you are kidding.