What the Abomination REALLY is

[Cyberseeker]

It is necessary to fix up a serious misunderstanding concerning Daniels ‘seventieth week.’ It has been widely taught by modern preachers and popular books that the person spoken about refers to Antichrist. The story goes how in the middle of the seventieth week Antichrist will enter a rebuilt Jewish temple and cause animal sacrifice to stop. This act of desecration (they say) is fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 with some modern version Bibles even stretching their translation to say so. For example:

“He will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. Then as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the end that has been decreed is poured out on this defiler.â€Â
(Daniel 9:27 New Living Translation)

In short, the modern doctrine together with some paraphrased Bibles say the clock stopped after the sixty-ninth week and the last week was projected two thousand years into the future after which it resumes when Antichrist is revealed. In the middle of this seven-year period he abominates the temple. But apart from the obvious difficulty of jamming a two-thousand year wedge into God’s timeline, this interpretation confuses the prophecy’s real intent. The passage is all about atonement, not second coming. The central person is Christ, not Antichrist. The temple is the ‘rejected’ not the ‘desecrated.’

The traditional view of this passage, held by the Church until last century, was the correct one all along. Christ is the one who confirms the covenant! Christ is the one who causes sacrifice to cease! Christ is the one that makes the temple obsolete! Is this what happened? It surely did. In the midst of the seventieth week – in the very midst – God caused the great curtain of the temple to be torn from top to bottom indicating that sacrifice (as far as He was concerned) had come to an end. The atonement was complete! Shortly after this the ‘other prince’, Titus the Roman, came and destroyed the temple altogether.

The following Bible version gives a more reliable translation of the verses and the authors notes are included in brackets in order to show how each clause is fulfilled.

“After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (troops of Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (ad70) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after baptism) He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (veil of temple torn) And on the wing of abominations (temple worship after the ‘weeks’ was an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.†(Gods judgement on Jerusalem from ad70 until the times of the gentiles finish)
(Dan 9: 26,27 New King James Version, bracketed notes added)

What may come as a shock to many is that putting a stop to temple worship is not the abomination. It is temple worship itself, continued in defiance of God after the times allocated to it (the ‘weeks’) had ended. This is what the abomination really is and that is why the temple is not still standing as a memento to former days when Gods blessing was upon it.

Cyberseeker

 

[turnorburn]

How do you explain this, as if had been under our noses all along.. :yes
The early church new all about these goings on they had front row seats
during the "Inquisitions"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDn0ex658OA


turnorburn

 

[Shilohsfoal]

What the abomination really is=
Rev 13;13-16
And he doeth great wonders,so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And decieveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;saying to them that dwell on the earth,that they should make an image to the beast,which had the wound by the sword,and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,that the image of the beast should both speak,and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all,both small and great,rich and poor,free and bond,to recieve a mark in thier right hand,or in thier foreheads;

 

[Shilohsfoal]

What the abomination really is=
Rev 13;13-16
And he doeth great wonders,so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And decieveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;saying to them that dwell on the earth,that they should make an image to the beast,which had the wound by the sword,and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,that the image of the beast should both speak,and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all,both small and great,rich and poor,free and bond,to recieve a mark in thier right hand,or in thier foreheads;

These will understand-
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Dan 11;33
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many;yet they shall fall by the sword,and by flame,by captivity,and by spoil,many days.

Rev 20;4
And I saw thrones and they sat upon them,and judgement was given unto them;and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,and for the word of God,and which had not worshiped the beast,neither his image,neither had recieved his mark upon thier foreheads,or in thier hands;and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cyberseeker
The atonement was complete! Shortly after this the ‘other prince’, Titus the Roman, came and destroyed the temple altogether.

Not altogether:

The entire lower half of the section seen today is from the period of the second temple, which was destroyed in the year 70AD (the upper half was added). There were 24 layers of stone still remaining after 70AD. The words of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I see more than one stone that was not ‘thrown down’. Unlike humans, Christ doesn’t mince words or exaggerate. Not to mention that half of the prophecies that Christ foretells in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 did not come to pass prior to 70AD (and still haven’t come to pass).

 

[Cyberseeker]

What we see here called the 'wailing wall' were the walls that surrounded the Temple compound. These had been expanded by Herod beyond the original temple area but Jesus was speaking of the actual buildings themselves. So I take it that Jesus words were true. Not one stone of the temple buildings were left standing on another.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cyberseeker
What we see here called the 'wailing wall' were the walls that surrounded the Temple compound. These had been expanded by Herod beyond the original temple area but Jesus was speaking of the actual buildings themselves. So I take it that Jesus words were true. Not one stone of the temple buildings were left standing on another.

Yeah....sure there Cyber. Nice spin! 2


I'll quote myself

I have never understood the preterist view because the basic fundamental premise defies common sense. If the preterist view is to be believed, it would leave the New Testament Christian (in our post-70 AD era) without a canon . If all prophecy was fulfilled prior to 70 AD, and if the entire New Testament is speaking about issues and events that concern the pre-70 AD time frame, Christians do not have any relevant Scripture. The entire New Testament must be transposed before it can be relevant, and is basically useless apart from the moral instruction. As Spock would say; "That is not logical". I'm not going to debate you on this, because the entire preterist argument is beyond absurd, and after thirty years of the same fruitless debates I'm too tired to bother with it anymore .

 

[turnorburn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xl6-Q53RHc

All hell is about to break loose, open your eyes.

 

[Cyberseeker]

I'm not going to debate you on this, because the entire preterist argument is beyond absurd, and after thirty years of the same fruitless debates I'm too tired to bother with it anymore .

No trubs Os because Im not a preterist. ;)

 

[n2thelight]

Originally posted by Cyberseeker
The atonement was complete! Shortly after this the ‘other prince’, Titus the Roman, came and destroyed the temple altogether.

Not altogether:

The entire lower half of the section seen today is from the period of the second temple, which was destroyed in the year 70AD (the upper half was added). There were 24 layers of stone still remaining after 70AD. The words of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I see more than one stone that was not ‘thrown down’. Unlike humans, Christ doesn’t mince words or exaggerate. Not to mention that half of the prophecies that Christ foretells in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 did not come to pass prior to 70AD (and still haven’t come to pass).

I agree

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cyberseeker
No trubs Os because Im not a preterist.

Sorry Cy, my mistake. I'm one of those impatient, jumpy type :eyebrow. Just thought I might be at risk of getting in deep again, but these days I don't have the time or energy, and many of my old debates are on disks I probably can't find, so cut and paste wouldn't be an option, and I would have to type from scratch :D.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Just to confuse everybody, Im a Historicist. :shades

• Preterists are the people who believe all prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70.[/*:m:1on0l1m8]
• Futurists are the people who believe most end time stuff is in a small 7-year period in the future.[/*:m:1on0l1m8]
• Historicists believe that prophecy is being fulfilled throughout the church age.[/*:m:1on0l1m8]

So in the case of Daniel 9 and the 'weeks', yes, I agree with the prets that it was fulfilled in the 1st century. But in the case of the case of a final Antichrist, I agree with the futurists that he is yet to come.

However, Antichrists have always arisen. The antichrist temple sacrifices (after the 'weeks' had ended) are a precursor to future Antichrists! So, if you want to know what the final abomination is like, look no further than the abomination that happened when wicked priests stitched together the curtain and continued atonement day sacrifices.

 

[Joe67]

Acts 7:47-51
47 But Solomon built him a house.
48 Howbeit the Most High dwelleth not in (houses) made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 The heaven is my throne, And the earth the footstool of my feet: What manner of house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: Or what is the place of my rest?
50 Did not my hand make all these things?
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. ASV

The glorious temple built under Solomon's authority was built through the development of iniquity. The lust of the eyes through that which symbolizes prosperity beguiled the people.

Ezek 28:15
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. NKJV

I delight in the law of God after the inward man. When I would do good, evil is present with me.Rom 7.

With John we marvel at the beauty of the mother of harlots and her beguiling appearance of prosperity. Revelation 17:6.

Joe

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Joe67
The glorious temple built under Solomon's authority was built through the development of iniquity. The lust of the eyes through that which symbolizes prosperity beguiled the people.

:puppydogeyes

Erm...Ok; relevance?

Are you saying the spirit of greed (love of money) is the beast, and legal tender is the image of the beast? So what would the ‘mark’ of the beast be?

 

[Joe67]

Originally posted by Joe67
The glorious temple built under Solomon's authority was built through the development of iniquity. The lust of the eyes through that which symbolizes prosperity beguiled the people.

:puppydogeyes

Erm...Ok; relevance?

Are you saying the spirit of greed (love of money) is the beast, and legal tender is the image of the beast? So what would the ‘mark’ of the beast be?

Os,

It is a spirit with teachings but it is made manifest through material objects.

Paul testified concerning the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Joe

 

[Matthew24:34]

Originally posted by Cyberseeker
What we see here called the 'wailing wall' were the walls that surrounded the Temple compound. These had been expanded by Herod beyond the original temple area but Jesus was speaking of the actual buildings themselves. So I take it that Jesus words were true. Not one stone of the temple buildings were left standing on another.

Yeah....sure there Cyber. Nice spin! 2


I'll quote myself

[quote:2pbkxzha]I have never understood the preterist view because the basic fundamental premise defies common sense. If the preterist view is to be believed, it would leave the New Testament Christian (in our post-70 AD era) without a canon . If all prophecy was fulfilled prior to 70 AD, and if the entire New Testament is speaking about issues and events that concern the pre-70 AD time frame, Christians do not have any relevant Scripture. The entire New Testament must be transposed before it can be relevant, and is basically useless apart from the moral instruction. As Spock would say; "That is not logical". I'm not going to debate you on this, because the entire preterist argument is beyond absurd, and after thirty years of the same fruitless debates I'm too tired to bother with it anymore .

[/quote:2pbkxzha]

Greetings, Osgiliath: Actually there is much controversy over the identity of the Wailing Wall. It is "thought to be" or "believed to be" part of the Temple wall, but no one knows for sure. So, cyberseeker is not spinning anything.

Furthermore, most people who find fault with preterism do not understand it--they only repeat what they have been told about it. The Scriptures don't lie!

Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Furthermore, most people who find fault with preterism do not understand it--they only repeat what they have been told about it. The Scriptures don't lie!

Perhaps that is true about ‘most’ people. However, (not to toot my own horn), you’re not dealing with ‘most’ people in this particular exchange. And you are indeed correct.....the Scriptures don't lie.

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty about ‘spin’ and absolute truth, a pile of sand would technically constitute ‘one stone upon another’. A partially ‘knocked down’ pile of rubble caused by a little insignificant general does not fulfill the prophecy accurately. Only complete annihilation (turned to powder) would render Jesus’ words to be true.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Furthermore, most people who find fault with preterism do not understand it--they only repeat what they have been told about it. The Scriptures don't lie!

Perhaps that is true about ‘most’ people. However, (not to toot my own horn), you’re not dealing with ‘most’ people in this particular exchange. And you are indeed correct.....the Scriptures don't lie.

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty about ‘spin’ and absolute truth, a pile of sand would technically constitute ‘one stone upon another’. A partially ‘knocked down’ pile of rubble caused by a little insignificant general does not fulfill the prophecy accurately. Only complete annihilation (turned to powder) would render Jesus’ words to be true.

Osgiliath: You describe the horrible destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70 as the knocking down of a "pile of rubble caused by a little insignificant general?" Have you read the details of the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70?

According to Josephus, Titus "gave order that they should now demolish the entire city and temple . . . but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited" (Josephus, The War Of The Jews, 7:1:1 [emphasis mine]).

One should not presume to know the great horrors and destruction of that time unless he has read the eyewitness accounts of Flavius Josephus! The result was not a mere "pile of rubble," Osgiliath. The city and Temple were gone--as if they had never existed! Jesus' words were fulfilled--"you house is left unto you desolate!"

Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Furthermore, most people who find fault with preterism do not understand it--they only repeat what they have been told about it. The Scriptures don't lie!

Perhaps that is true about ‘most’ people. However, (not to toot my own horn), you’re not dealing with ‘most’ people in this particular exchange. And you are indeed correct.....the Scriptures don't lie.

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty about ‘spin’ and absolute truth, a pile of sand would technically constitute ‘one stone upon another’. A partially ‘knocked down’ pile of rubble caused by a little insignificant general does not fulfill the prophecy accurately. Only complete annihilation (turned to powder) would render Jesus’ words to be true.

Osgiliath: You describe the horrible destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70 as the knocking down of a "pile of rubble caused by a little insignificant general?" Have you read the details of the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70?

According to Josephus, Titus "gave order that they should now demolish the entire city and temple . . . but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited" (Josephus, The War Of The Jews, 7:1:1 [emphasis mine]).

One should not presume to know the great horrors and destruction of that time unless he has read the eyewitness accounts of Flavius Josephus! The result was not a mere "pile of rubble," Osgiliath. The city and Temple were gone--as if they had never existed! Jesus' words were fulfilled--"you house is left unto you desolate!"

Matthew24:34

Mathew
You do know that Josephus lied to his own people to save his own neck dont you?
He had his own people murder each other till he was left and gave himself up to the Romans.It wasnt like he understood what was happening at the time because his own wife and parents died in Jerusalem.Dont make the man out to be a saint cause hes not.He wasnt a christian and didnt follow the lamb.In other words he had no eyes to see or ears to hear.He should have stuck with recording history and not attempted to interpret scripture .But since there are so many in Israel that believe Joesephus,they wont have a clue when they are faced with such an abomination.Josephus said the abomination of desolation was set up in 168 bc claiming it was a stature of zeus and his teachings are taught by those in Israel today who do wickedly against the covenant.Not that they even know what the covenant is for they themselves deny Christ before men and say Christ has not come in the flesh.
These students of Josephus have no clue what is coming thier way.

Dan 11;32
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt with flatteries;but the people that do know thier God shall be strong and do exploits.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew 24:34
One should not presume to know the great horrors and destruction of that time unless he has read the eyewitness accounts of Flavius Josephus! The result was not a mere "pile of rubble," Osgiliath. The city and Temple were gone--as if they had never existed! Jesus' words were fulfilled--"you house is left unto you desolate!"

There was still 'left one stone upon another', which was my point. For the prophecy of Jesus to be accurately fulfilled, there would need to be a complete annihilation of matter, resulting in a residue of only powder (more akin to Sodom and Gomorrah). Like I have stated, even a small pile of sand technically constitutes 'one stone upon another'. The Scriptures do not lie, and Jesus does not mince words.

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Now... great hailstones from heaven (more like meteors from space) weighing about 90 pounds apiece could indeed anihilate the solid aggregate of minerals that form rock or stone. As with most other related prophecies, I believe this is what Christ was referring to.