What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection?

[John 8:32]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Saints seen in Jerusalem post resurrection:

Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Pre-resurrection these existed in Abraham's bosom. Their hold prior to His Ascension.

There is no scriptural evidence for this.

The walking dead:

Matt. 8:
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.



We know that living people are 'dead' in their sins, making them the walking dead. We know that God is the God of the LIVING, not of dead people's bones lying in graves.


Matt. 8:

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

That would be Mat 22:32.

Who then lies sleeping in the dust?


Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


It is not beyond comprehension that when believers part here they ARE with Jesus Christ, the LIVING GOD.

It is not beyond comprehension but it is not scriptural and it is just not true. If those great ones in Heb 11 have...


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off,and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they werestrangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And theseall, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb 11:40 God havingprovided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be madeperfect.





They are dead…



Ecc 9:5 For theliving know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither havethey any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.



God says we do not have an immortal soul, that we die andour hope is a resurrection from the dead. Satan said, “Thou shalt not surely die.†Who do you believe?

And that those who sleep in the dust will awaken LATER, at the FINAL JUDGMENT unto everlasting contempt and shame.


Every man in his own order means that at the point of death EACH SAINT rises at that time. That is 'their time.'

And the Bible says that that is at Christ's return...

1Co 15:23 But everyman in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ'sat his coming.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with themin the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with theLord

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Quoted from Isa 26:19, Isa 60:1-3

Abraham spoke well AFTER his flesh death as shown by Jesus in Luke 16.



s

Luke 16 is a parable, why did Christ speak in parables?

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Who was the audience here...

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

You cannot use a parable to contradict plain scripture. I did a verse by verse on Luke 16 at another site. I can redo it here, but it will take a little while. I'll post it in a while.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Part 2

Souls die, Bible says so. What then is a soul?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Word for soul is…

H5315

נפשׁ

nephesh

neh'-fesh

From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animalor (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated orfigurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath,creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy,he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me,mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them(your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Now man is a breathing creature, that’s what a soul is. What other creatures are souls?

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Word life is a compound of H5315 - nephesh and…

H2416

חי

chay

khah'ee

From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water,year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculineplural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast,company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing),maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing,troop.

Gen 1:21 And Godcreated great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Word for creature is H5315 – nephesh. Things that live in the ocean, whales, fish,oyster, clams, crabs, etc. are souls. Are they immortal souls?

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Creeping things on the land are, you guessed it, H5315 –nephesh, souls. Are rabbits and skunks and lizards immortal souls?

Gen 1:30 And to everybeast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Life is again a compound of H5315 – nephesh and H2416 –chay.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Creature is H5315 – nephesh.

What then is a soul? A soul is a breathing creature that can die and just like Rover, when it dies, it dies all over. There is nothing immortal about a soul. This is why Paulsays…



Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin earns death, but life is a gift of God.

Our hope is a resurrection to life from the dead. Those in Christ die, are dead and as Eccl 9:5 says, know nothing. At the resurrection, we are made alive in Christ...


1Co 15:22 For as inAdam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward theythat are Christ's at his coming

Every man in his own order. The dead in Christ are not made alive again until the resurrection at His return.

Hey youngin, VERY VERY GOOD! A+
That is one of the two false teachings that set the two 'final' class' ones of Matt. 6:24 apart. The false teaching of immortality of the soul, do you know what the other one is? Dan. 7:25

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

There is no scriptural evidence for this.

The scripture citing was right there. Abraham spoke long after his flesh death in Luke 16 as well. Go read it.

It is not beyond comprehension but it is not scriptural and it is just not true. If those great ones in Heb 11 have...


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off,and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they werestrangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And theseall, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb 11:40 God havingprovided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be madeperfect.

The Promise is fulfilled entirely when the ENTIRE BODY is gathered together. This does not preclude the ongoing gathering of Saints at the point of death.

Ecc 9:5 For theliving know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither havethey any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit God gives does not lie dead in the dust, period.

God says we do not have an immortal soul, that we die andour hope is a resurrection from the dead. Satan said, “Thou shalt not surely die.” Who do you believe?

You are welcome to believe you are a dead man in your faith.

And the Bible says that that is at Christ's return...

The Spirit of Christ already lives in us. What are you thinking? That when you die His Given Spirit lies dead in a box or that He departs from you while you lie there as nothing? lol

1Co 15:23 But everyman in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ'sat his coming.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with themin the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with theLord

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Quoted from Isa 26:19, Isa 60:1-3

Awakening is also a 'present tense' matter. See Romans 13:8 to end of chapter to see 'the how' of awakening.

Luke 16 is a parable, why did Christ speak in parables?

Because the Living Word dealt/deals with matters eternal and against anti-Christ spiritual powers that are not physically viewable. That is 'why' the conveyances are via parable.

Who was the audience here...

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

You mistake the audience as 'only people.' That is assuredly not the case. If you understood how to understand 'all parables' you would also know 'who else' was listening.

You cannot use a parable to contradict plain scripture. I did a verse by verse on Luke 16 at another site. I can redo it here, but it will take a little while. I'll post it in a while.

Abraham speaking was deployed by Jesus Himself in Luke 16. So, did Jesus LIE in that parable? It wasn't 'really' Abraham? Just a PHONY Abraham? A LYING Abraham?

lol

s

 

[smaller]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Hey youngin, VERY VERY GOOD! A+
That is one of the two false teachings that set the two 'final' class' ones of Matt. 6:24 apart. The false teaching of immortality of the soul, do you know what the other one is? Dan. 7:25

--Elijah

A+ this one E:

Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Still lying dead in graves?

lol.

Let's just CUT OUT the scriptures we don't like huh?

s

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

A+ this one E:

Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Still lying dead in graves?

lol.

Let's just CUT OUT the scriptures we don't like huh?

s

_________________________________________

--Elijah here once more:

Don't like?? I love these verses! And there are a couple more such as the translation of Elijah. But the 'common' (us) will not come forth until Christ comes again.

Just a thought?? If one wanted to just drop the sarcastic garbage of satan, and discuss the Bible verses when posting, they might learn something? ;)

Did you even even read the young'ins post prayerfully???

 

[smaller]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

_________________________________________

--Elijah here once more:

Don't like?? I love these verses! And there are a couple more such as the translation of Elijah. But the 'common' (us) will not come forth until Christ comes again.

Ah, common saints and exalted saints then? lol

Just a thought?? If one wanted to just drop the sarcastic garbage of satan, and discuss the Bible verses when posting, they might learn something?

Anyone who smears death upon believers is a tool of satan imho.

The fact is that scriptures do address entities that can not be seen, that being the demonic. They are in fact the walking dead among the living. In case you missed it Jesus spoke to these entities on nearly every page of the N.T. IN people. Particularly in the 'religious' people.

Did you even even read the young'ins post prayerfully???

Yes, I'm very familiar with the 'soul sleep' theories in their various arrays. None stand to an accurate test of text as the previous citing to you shows.

s

 

[for_his_glory]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

That's right, God said it AND He fulfilled it to the Bride! "We" today are not the "bride" we are God's children. The New Jerusalem, Lamb's wife is our "mother" if anything. We are not the wife. Israel was the wife. Unbelieving Israel played the harlot with the Beast. Harlot was Israel bc God had been married to her. Beast is a term in the Text for a gentile. God divorced Israel but would again marry her but in a new moral & spiritual way. The New Jerusalem bride is the spiritual Israel, of which we have also been brought in by faith.

We are not the Bride. The dead patriarchs of Israel ( ie: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) plus the first century Hebrew Remnant were the Bride. The 1st century Gentile Christians were also invited to the Wedding. The wedding supper of the Lamb occurred 2,000 yrs. ago.. It's a spiritual event.

The New Jerusalem is not just a church, but the universal kingdom of God. It's a spiritual city. The Holy Spirit flows from God's Throne there. (Rev.22:1)

I will let the word of God speak for itself to show you we are the bride of Christ grafted into the root, which is Christ, as the branches are that of the promised seed of God through Abraham as Israel and Gentiles make up the branches of the root, again which is Christ to all the world that have faith in Christ and have answered Gods call to grace (salvation).

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

We are grafted into that tree, which is Christ and only through Christ that is our root, as a branch with Israel through the inheritance God made through Abraham.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

If we be grafted into Christ as our root and we the branches per Romans 11:11, 12 this makes us along with the remnant of Israel the bride of Christ who will be seated at the marriage supper of the Lamb (Christ) when we are gathered from the four winds by the angels of God and be with Christ forever when the New Jerusalem, new earth, and new heaven are ushered down from the third heaven where Jesus is right now preparing for his bride.

 

[John 8:32]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Part 1


Lazarus and the rich man is probably the most misunderstoodparable of all the parables Jesus gave. To understand this, one must first understand that it is a parable. Easy enough to prove. Who was the audience? Luke 16:14 says it was the Pharisees and Mat13:34 says Christ did not speak plainly to the multitudes at anytime…



Mat 13:34 All thesethings spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spakehe not unto them:



Why did Jesus speak to them in parables? Were parables stories that farm folk oflimited education and intelligence could understand? Were parables used to make the meaning plain? Nope, they were designed to hide the meaningand complicate and confuse the masses. Jesus said His called followers would understand…



Mat 13:11 He answeredand said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of thekingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.



But please notice that He had to explain them privately toHis disciples, as for the masses…



Mat 13:13 Thereforespeak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hearnot, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:14 And in themis fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, andshall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mat 13:15 For thispeople's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and theireyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, andhear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should beconverted, and I should heal them.



Jesus Christ said He spoke in parables to hide themeaning. So with this bit of knowledge,let us begin to look at Lazarus and the rich man, realizing this is a parablespoken to the Pharisees and it was not meant to reveal, but to obscure to them.



Luke 16:19-31 is not literal, it is figurative. Do we take Rom 12:20 literal? No we understand it is figurative and it isnot even a parable. So to say Luke 16 isliteral is just not correct. It is a parableand a parable throughout. Just becausethis parable uses a name, does not mean it is literal.



OK, here goes…

 

[John 8:32]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Part 2

First of all who is Lazarus? Lazarus is a transliteration of the Hebrew Eleazar or Eliezer. Now since this parable involves Abraham, whatEliezer is associated with Abraham?



Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the stewardof my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

Gen 15:3 And Abrams aid, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house ismine heir.



Eliezer was Abraham’s gentile servant, the chief steward ofAbraham. He had the legal right to inherit all of Abraham’s wealth, Gen15:3. He was also given an assignmentthat would permanently disqualify him from that position.



Gen 24:2 And Abrahamsaid unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had,Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:

Gen 24:3 And I willmake thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, thatthou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites,among whom I dwell:

Gen 24:4 But thoushalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.



An heir for Isaac would inherit all and Eliezer would simplybe left out, hoping for some kindness from his master. You know, crumbs from the table. Eliezer humbly and completely fulfilled thetask. His loyalty for Abraham and hishousehold was amazing.



OK, now who was the Rich Man? The Rich Man was a son of Abraham, Luke16:24-25. Father Abraham and Son. This Rich Man was a legal possessor ofAbraham’s inheritance. In fact, he worepurple, the symbol of kingship, a sign that the Davidic or Messianic Kingdomwas his. He wore linen, the symbol ofthe priesthood. What Israelite tribefinally assumed possession of the kingdom and priesthood. The tribe that became representative of thepromises given to Abraham, Judah. Judahhad five brothers, Luke 16:28. Judah hadthe five brothers…



Gen 30:19 And Leahconceived again, and bare Jacob the sixth son.

Gen 35:23 The sons ofLeah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar,and Zebulun:



Judah and five brothers. Notice that Judah had the oracles of God…



Luk 16:29 Abrahamsaith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Rom 3:1 Whatadvantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Rom 3:2 Much everyway: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



God had committed to Judah the preservation of the OldTestament, the Law and the Prophets.



Now we know who Eliezer and the Rich Man are, into theparable…



Luk 16:19 There was acertain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and faredsumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20 And therewas a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21 Anddesiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.



We have established who these two are



Luk 16:22 And it cameto pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham'sbosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;



Eliezer, symbolic of the gentiles (he was a Syrian, Gen15:2) being called into the Kingdom of God. After all, the Jews believed it was not possible for a gentile to enterin.



Luk 16:23 And in hellhe lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarusin his bosom.



Judah, is left out. He is tormented.



Luk 16:24 And hecried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he maydip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented inthis flame.



If this were hell fire, right about now Judah would bescreaming for a firehose or a flood if he could speak at all. Why just a drop? He has dry mouth syndrome from mentalanguish.



Luk 16:25 But Abrahamsaid, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, andlikewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.



Remember Eliezer being disqualified at the time, gentileswere disqualified under the old covenant. Judah is now on the outside looking in after being the favored nation.



Luk 16:26 And besideall this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they whichwould pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that wouldcome from thence.



Greek here for “great gulf” is chasm. The Greek means a deep ravine or valley withsteep cliff walls on either side. In Luke16:26 note the word pass. In all otheroccasions of its use it denotes passage over water. The place that fits this description is thevalley between Tans-Jordan and the hill country of Ephraim through which theRiver Jordan flows.



Luk 16:27 Then hesaid, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father'shouse:

Luk 16:28 For I havefive brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into thisplace of torment.



Gen 35:23 Judah’sfive brothers.



Luk 16:29 Abrahamsaith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.



The Old testament scriptures.



Luk 16:30 And hesaid, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they willrepent.

Luk 16:31 And he saidunto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they bepersuaded, though one rose from the dead.



It plainly says here that they will not here Christ, evenafter His death, burial and resurrection. And it is true to this day, Jews do not accept Christ as the Messiah.



If this is about what happens to people after they die, let’s examine that idea. First thing to noticeis that those in Abraham’s bosom can see and hear those in hell. So, isn’t it comforting to know that you will be able to see unsaved friends, loved ones and family burning, screaming in anguish and torment for all eternity and guess what? Because of the great gulf fixed between, you will not be able to do a thing for them. Those in hell will be looking at you begging for relief and you can’t help them. You also will not be allowed to warn anyone else of what horrors await them.



Do you really think this is what this parable is about? Or maybe it could mean this…



Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 8:12 But thechildren of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall beweeping and gnashing of teeth.



Luk 13:28 There shallbe weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


The gentiles go into the Kingdom while the self-righteous Jews do not enter.



Or maybe the saved just sit in heaven and watch the unsaved sizzle and pop and crackle and listen to their screams and pleading and begging for entertainment for all eternity. I rather doubt this.

 

[John 8:32]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Dunno why, but when I C&P scriptures, it seems to remove some spaces. I hope you folks can still make heads and tails out of the posts. my apologies.

 

[smaller]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Dunno why, but when I C&P scriptures, it seems to remove some spaces. I hope you folks can still make heads and tails out of the posts. my apologies.

A very very poor dissection of the parable.

Reason? Large missing component.

Jesus' Words openly gave the components to understand 'all' parables:

Mark 4:
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.



The basic components of 'all parables?' Gods Words, people and Satan.


I see no mention of the latter in the dissection, which is typical of 'all' guesswork analysis. Without that component they are not accurate whatsoever.


Such can't even get the basic components of all parables because they are just not hearing Jesus' Words on these matters.


I've seen the analysis several years ago. It doesn't hold water.



s

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Dunno why, but when I C&P scriptures, it seems to remove some spaces. I hope you folks can still make heads and tails out of the posts. my apologies.

All one needs to know about that parable is who was Christ talking to. If He is BELIEVED, He always explained the parable to His diciples. It is stated that 'without a parable he spake unto them' (Luke 16:14 Pharisees also!)
And Mark 4
[33] And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
[34] But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

(one more!)

Matt. 13:34
[33] Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

If you need more? lets me know!

--Elijah

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

I will let the word of God speak for itself to show you we are the bride of Christ grafted into the root, which is Christ, as the branches are that of the promised seed of God through Abraham as Israel and Gentiles make up the branches of the root, again which is Christ to all the world that have faith in Christ and have answered Gods call to grace (salvation).

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

We are grafted into that tree, which is Christ and only through Christ that is our root, as a branch with Israel through the inheritance God made through Abraham.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

If we be grafted into Christ as our root and we the branches per Romans 11:11, 12 this makes us along with the remnant of Israel the bride of Christ who will be seated at the marriage supper of the Lamb (Christ) when we are gathered from the four winds by the angels of God and be with Christ forever when the New Jerusalem, new earth, and new heaven are ushered down from the third heaven where Jesus is right now preparing for his bride.

You think that way bc you're not regarding the component of audience relevance.
Proper Biblical hermeneutic MUST include this.

(Rev 21:2 KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. New Jerusalem, New Covenant.

(Rev 21:9 KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Bride is now called wife.

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The spirit AND bride say come. Is this not how were are born again? We hear the voice of Christ but it isn't just His voice we hear, we also hear the Gospel written down and eye witnessed by the 1st cent. church.

(Acts 2:39 KJV) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
(Gal 3:26 KJV) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

We weren't even born when the Spirit & the Bride said that!

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

You think that way bc you're not regarding the component of audience relevance.
Proper Biblical hermeneutic MUST include this.

(Rev 21:2 KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. New Jerusalem, New Covenant.

(Rev 21:9 KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Bride is now called wife.

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The spirit AND bride say come. Is this not how were are born again? We hear the voice of Christ but it isn't just His voice we hear, we also hear the Gospel written down and eye witnessed by the 1st cent. church.

(Acts 2:39 KJV) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
(Gal 3:26 KJV) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

We weren't even born when the Spirit & the Bride said that!

Agreed, we are not even needed!;) (some times we wonder if God would do better without us?)

And PROPHECY as in Dan. 2 has the WORD OF GOD still known & Eternal!

Dan. 2
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

What is interesting is that this was even a heathen king at this point, and the ones of today that post.. mostly seem to not understand prophecy even to the heathen!

-Elijah

 

[John 8:32]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

A very very poor dissection of the parable.

Reason? Large missing component.

Jesus' Words openly gave the components to understand 'all' parables:

Mark 4:
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.



The basic components of 'all parables?' Gods Words, people and Satan.


I see no mention of the latter in the dissection, which is typical of 'all' guesswork analysis. Without that component they are not accurate whatsoever.


Such can't even get the basic components of all parables because they are just not hearing Jesus' Words on these matters.


I've seen the analysis several years ago. It doesn't hold water.



s

I eagerly await your verse by verse explanation.

 

[Stormcrow]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Kinda' fun to sit on the sidelines of this one and watch the usual bomb throwers take each other out! :D

 

[John 8:32]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Kinda' fun to sit on the sidelines of this one and watch the usual bomb throwers take each other out! :D

Dive right in and give us your view. Don't be afraid.

 

[smaller]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

I eagerly await your verse by verse explanation.

The components of 'all parables' are there for anyone to be taught same by The Spirit.

The parable you referenced is quite complicated, as the 'rich man' is without a name for very specific purposes and his identity revolves around the typical missing component referenced prior.

If you can stretch that far with understanding, will continue. Just tell me who the 'rich man' is.

s

 

[John 8:32]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

The components of 'all parables' are there for anyone to be taught same by The Spirit.

The parable you referenced is quite complicated, as the 'rich man' is without a name for very specific purposes and his identity revolves around the typical missing component referenced prior.

If you can stretch that far with understanding, will continue. Just tell me who the 'rich man' is.

s

First of all, yes the parable is complicated. I believe the Rich Man to be Judah of the day who rejected Christ as the Messiah. Please continue with whom you think he is. I am very much interested in your understanding of this parable.

 

[smaller]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

First of all, yes the parable is complicated. I believe the Rich Man to be Judah of the day who rejected Christ as the Messiah. Please continue with whom you think he is. I am very much interested in your understanding of this parable.

Here's the difficulty. I pointed out to Jesus' Words identifying the components of every parable, and included the observation of that missing VITAL component in the dissection you put up, associating that with the rich man.

So, I'll ask you once again, who is the rich man?

You see there is a rule that is proven with these examples, that being even when it's right in front of some people's eyes they still can't see it, and are therefore not meant to see it. Beating someone over the head with the obvious is not my piece of cake.

Just as the supposed passive observer who just hit this thread can't see it and won't address the identical matter.

s