What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection?

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

The Holy Spirit is "the comforter", given seperately and upon being born again. The original spirit that all recieve is the breath of God. It is in essence, life!

The problem we have is that our theology influences the translations...rather than our translations being simply accurately translated, if anything is too difficult it will be rendered according to theological bias, rather than based upon the true meaning. Any translations that stray from traditional translation will often result in scare tactics, and screams off "corrupt, corrupt" and people will back away from reading it.

We are fortunate ,in this case you provided all that is needed ;


this is what you posted;

Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice. These are martyrs killed by the spirit of antichrist.
The white robe is redemption..they are made clean. They rest as in SLEEP until the rest of the christians are killed also (i.e. Not raptured) then Jesus returns and *drumroll* the dead in Christ will rise first!

Emphasis added.

And this is what the Scripture says;

9And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,

I would render soul as body/life and I would render spirit as breath, I would keep Holy Spirit, theres no theological or translational reason to change it, but the NWT rendering of God's Active Force, is not blasphemous, evil, or corrupt.

I agree with you, when we die we are dead..I simply wasnt in a position to quote verses at that timr, I hope my opinion is clearly stated now

Surely all of Christendom has not been left to wander in the dark Reb, you must be able to quote 8 or 10 competently translated and published bibles that say; Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice, rather than 'souls' .

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

The Holy Spirit is "the comforter", given seperately and upon being born again. The original spirit that all recieve is the breath of God. It is in essence, life!

The problem we have is that our theology influences the translations...rather than our translations being simply accurately translated, if anything is too difficult it will be rendered according to theological bias, rather than based upon the true meaning. Any translations that stray from traditional translation will often result in scare tactics, and screams off "corrupt, corrupt" and people will back away from reading it.

I would render soul as body/life and I would render spirit as breath, I would keep Holy Spirit, theres no theological or translational reason to change it, but the NWT rendering of God's Active Force, is not blasphemous, evil, or corrupt.

I agree with you, when we die we are dead..I simply wasnt in a position to quote verses at that timr, I hope my opinion is clearly stated now

Hey! We are in unity on that!;) (miracles never cease)
And a couple were the exception. Elijah + Moses. These ones as 'i' see it find the repeat 'type' of the saved alive translated ones when Christ comes the second time to earth, & Moses whose body did not see decay, represents the Eccl. 3:15 repeat as the ones coming up from the grave in the first resurection.

--Elijah

 

[thethinkingrebel]

im no longer a jw but uh what exactly was the spirits that came to the transfiguration to whom peter saw and named? moses and elijah.

the writers of the nwt didnt even know greek fluently.

Im also not a Jehovahs Witness, simply pointing out how different renderings are not necessarily all that bad, and actually help to exposit scripture.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

We are fortunate ,in this case you provided all that is needed ;


this is what you posted;

Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice. These are martyrs killed by the spirit of antichrist.
The white robe is redemption..they are made clean. They rest as in SLEEP until the rest of the christians are killed also (i.e. Not raptured) then Jesus returns and *drumroll* the dead in Christ will rise first!

Emphasis added.

And this is what the Scripture says;

9And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, Surely all of Christendom has not been left to wander in the dark Reb, you must be able to quote 8 or 10 competently translated and published bibles that say; Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice, rather than 'souls' .

I cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not :p

Anyway when you say about those translations, I doubt it, the chances of a translation breaking off traditional renderings are close to zero, a new translation tends to be a rewording.

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

I cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not :p

Anyway when you say about those translations, I doubt it, the chances of a translation breaking off traditional renderings are close to zero, a new translation tends to be a rewording.

So you took it upon yourself to ghost write for the Holy Spirit. Not a good idea.:biglol
The fact is you cant cite even one published Bible that supports your spurious claim.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

So you took it upon yourself to ghost write for the Holy Spirit. Not a good idea.:biglol
The fact is you cant cite even one published Bible that supports your spurious claim.

What is spurious about this? Jesus said that he sent us the comforter..

*[[Joh 14:26]] KJV* But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is evidently a new thing, caused by the death of Christ..allowing God to turn his face towards us once again..

*[[Joh 16:7]] KJV* Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I dont see how this is spurious to say that the human spirit (i.e. Breath of God/life) is different from the Holy Spirit.

*[[Gen 6:3]] KJVLite* And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

My spirit shall not always strive with man = he shall not live forever
For he is flesh =he is sinful
His days shall be 120 years = he shall die.

How is this a spurious claim?

Genesis 6:3 spirit in Hebrew is Ruwach, number 1 meaning in strongs is breath!

My breath shall not always strive with man!

Check for yourself! Strongs number H7307.

John 16:7 comforter, Greek Parakletos, G3875.

Theres a big long essay, but just read the strongs definition and see if these two things are the same thing. One refers to life, the other to knowledge, intercession and comfort.

I have not Ghost written for the Holy Spirit..If I make a claim I endeavour to ensure I am correct before I make it.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Im also not a Jehovahs Witness, simply pointing out how different renderings are not necessarily all that bad, and actually help to exposit scripture.

im sorry but the holy spirit is a person not some force of God. if it wasnt that way then why jesus refer to the holy spirit as he?

i dont like the sources of both niv and nwt. the textus recipticus is the best

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

What is spurious about this? Jesus said that he sent us the comforter..

So you're nothing but a below average liar? I clearly labeled as spurious your alteration of the text, exchanging 'body' for soul. A faCT THAT HAS NO CONNECTION AT ALL TO THE DRIVEL YOU PRESENTED HERE

.

*[[Joh 14:26]] KJV* But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is evidently a new thing, caused by the death of Christ..allowing God to turn his face towards us once again..

*[[Joh 16:7]] KJV* Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I dont see how this is spurious to say that the human spirit (i.e. Breath of God/life) is different from the Holy Spirit.

*[[Gen 6:3]] KJVLite* And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

My spirit shall not always strive with man = he shall not live forever
For he is flesh =he is sinful
His days shall be 120 years = he shall die.

How is this a spurious claim?

Genesis 6:3 spirit in Hebrew is Ruwach, number 1 meaning in strongs is breath!

My breath shall not always strive with man!

Check for yourself! Strongs number H7307.

John 16:7 comforter, Greek Parakletos, G3875.

Theres a big long essay, but just read the strongs definition and see if these two things are the same thing. One refers to life, the other to knowledge, intercession and comfort.

I have not Ghost written for the Holy Spirit..If I make a claim I endeavour to ensure I am correct before I make it.

See above,nice try .

But at least Im in good company -you have tried put words in my mouth I never uttered, and you have done the same the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

im sorry but the holy spirit is a person not some force of God. if it wasnt that way then why jesus refer to the holy spirit as he?

i dont like the sources of both niv and nwt. the textus recipticus is the best

Another reason eschatology should be restricted to Christians.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

the words ruach, nephesh, chayaiah nephesh , and two others that i cant recall all describe mans soul. these are more then just a fleshly body and spirit. we are trichomoty and only fully human in the image of god when we are alive in in have His nature reflecting fully

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

What is spurious about this? Jesus said that he sent us the comforter..

*[[Joh 14:26]] KJV* But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is evidently a new thing, caused by the death of Christ..allowing God to turn his face towards us once again..

*[[Joh 16:7]] KJV* Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I dont see how this is spurious to say that the human spirit (i.e. Breath of God/life) is different from the Holy Spirit.

*[[Gen 6:3]] KJVLite* And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

My spirit shall not always strive with man = he shall not live forever
For he is flesh =he is sinful
His days shall be 120 years = he shall die.

How is this a spurious claim?

Genesis 6:3 spirit in Hebrew is Ruwach, number 1 meaning in strongs is breath!

My breath shall not always strive with man!

Check for yourself! Strongs number H7307.

John 16:7 comforter, Greek Parakletos, G3875.

Theres a big long essay, but just read the strongs definition and see if these two things are the same thing. One refers to life, the other to knowledge, intercession and comfort.

I have not Ghost written for the Holy Spirit..If I make a claim I endeavour to ensure I am correct before I make it.

HI!:waving No new thing! Eccl. 3:15
So: The Holy Spirit was omni/present until Adam forfieted his domain. And then the Plan was set into motion for Christ/God to not be omnipresent until He won bach Adam's lost domain. And it was then that Christ sent back the Holy/Spirit God, to not speak of Himself, but to hold up Christ as in the beginning.

--Elijah

PS: The post is very well stated except for this remark, as 'i' see as very important. (and NO, you will be the only one who understands it most likely??)
You say: 'This is evidently a new thing, caused by the death of Christ..allowing God to turn his face towards us once again..'

 

[thethinkingrebel]

HI!:waving No new thing! Eccl. 3:15
So: The Holy Spirit was omni/present until Adam forfieted his domain. And then the Plan was set into motion for Christ/God to not be omnipresent until He won bach Adam's lost domain. And it was then that Christ sent back the Holy/Spirit God, to not speak of Himself, but to hold up Christ as in the beginning.

--Elijah

PS: The post is very well stated except for this remark, as 'i' see as very important. (and NO, you will be the only one who understands it most likely??)
You say: 'This is evidently a new thing, caused by the death of Christ..allowing God to turn his face towards us once again..'

No new thing indeed...however, in this capacity and on this scale this was a new thing! God indwelling man is new! Only in the prophets do we hear of anything similar, and even then it is nothing comparable to the Holy Spirit living inside and renewing man.

I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is created.
I am not saying that the Holy Spirit did not inhabit the Earth before the crucifixion.
I meant that as the comforter this was new.
You see "God's active force" would be a good rendering, it implies the creative power or God in one supreme entity, eternally powerful and able. Carrying out the will off the father.

Now thanks to the power of Christ's death and resurrection, is capable of indwelling man.

There is a first time for everything..

 

[jasoncran]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

so the holy ghost didnt exist in the days of moses , noah?

read genesis one and restate your position. and also and the spirit of god was upon saul and he prophecied and it was said was is saul amongst the prophets?

 

[thethinkingrebel]

so the holy ghost didnt exist in the days of moses , noah?

read genesis one and restate your position. and also and the spirit of god was upon saul and he prophecied and it was said was is saul amongst the prophets?

I never said the holy spirit did NOT exist in Genesis. I think the Holy Spirit existed from the beginning.

The "spirit of God" would be the Holy Spirit..Saul was already alive, therefore he already had the breath of God within him..

There are two "spirits" that we as Christians possess (at least I hope some of you do):

1. The breath of God which we get at birth, which God takes away at death.

2. The Holy Spirit, member of the 'trinity'. Comforter, giver of wisdom, you dont see the things of the NT apostles in the OT, not because there was no Holy Spirit, but because he did not indwell men at that time..why? Because Israel was rebellious, and because Jesus had not made the ultimate sacrifice yet.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

No new thing indeed...however, in this capacity and on this scale this was a new thing! God indwelling man is new! Only in the prophets do we hear of anything similar, and even then it is nothing comparable to the Holy Spirit living inside and renewing man.

I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is created.
I am not saying that the Holy Spirit did not inhabit the Earth before the crucifixion.
I meant that as the comforter this was new.
You see "God's active force" would be a good rendering, it implies the creative power or God in one supreme entity, eternally powerful and able. Carrying out the will off the father.

Now thanks to the power of Christ's death and resurrection, is capable of indwelling man.

There is a first time for everything..

Only if it is stated so by God. (Eccl. 1:9-10 + doubled in Eccl. 3:15 + documented 'twice' for how God works in Gen. Gen. 41:32!)

Such as the rainbow in the sky + Nah. 1:9's ( second time where God tell's us the very few times of such, ...to save us time!:wink3)

What can one make of King Saul then when you post up... 'I am not saying that the Holy Spirit did not inhabit the Earth before the crucifixion.
I meant that as the comforter this was new.' (my underline)

1 Sam. 10
[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, [[and shalt be turned into another man]].
[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, [[God gave him another heart]]: and all those signs came to pass that day.

Just saying this in posted material! Let me understand if any here think that Christ as God/Christ in the OT needed extra power? (except to be omni/present?) Were there any more miracles that were done after the Holy Spirit was sent back to UPLIFT CHRIST OMNIPRESENT than while He was in the OT or NT before Acts doing all kinds of miracles?? (yes, again.. centerally located only!)

Am 'i' spining my wheels here??

--Elijah

PS: But yes, I find this a good thread also!