What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection?

[thethinkingrebel]

Not a lot of Scripture backing for the statements made.....

*[[Mat 9:24]] WEB* he said to them, “Make room, because the girl isn’t dead, but sleeping.” They were ridiculing him.

*[[Luk 8:52]] WEB* All were weeping and mourning her, but he said, “Don’t weep. She isn’t dead, but sleeping.”

*[[Joh 11:11-15]] WEB* He said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.” The disciples therefore said, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep. So Jesus said to them plainly then, “Lazarus is dead. I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe. Nevertheless, let’s go to him.”

*[[Ecc 9:5-7]] WEB* For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun. Go your way—eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already accepted your works.

*[[1Ki 2:10]] WEB* David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

*[[1Ki 15:8]] WEB* Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his place. (etc)

*[[Rom 6:5]] WEB* For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection;

*[[1Co 15:12-18]] WEB* Now if Christ is preached, that he has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn’t raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised. For if the dead aren’t raised, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

*[[2Ti 2:15-18]] WEB* Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn’t need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth. But shun empty chatter, for it will go further in ungodliness, and those words will consume like gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; men who have erred concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past, and overthrowing the faith of some.

I hope you understand the context of what i have posted, I wont go into revelation, but where it comes to the resurrection..if we were alive in heaven, then there is no reason for the resurrection, technically the resurrection had passed..resurrection means - return to life - if we are in heaven we are alive, not dead! Yet to be resurrected, we must be dead!

 

[Drew]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

You will not have existence in heaven. Nor will you experiencw anything whilst dead, you will sleep. You will know nothing until the day you are awoken.

That pretty much answers all your questions.

I am inclined to hold to this same position, even though I know that a theologian I deeply respect (NT Wright) appears to believe that people will be "conscious" in heaven.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

I am inclined to hold to this same position, even though I know that a theologian I deeply respect (NT Wright) appears to believe that people will be "conscious" in heaven.

I have a similar respect for Dr Wright. He puts forth the new heavens and new earth biblical doctrine wonderfully. I would say that the problem is that in modern christianity there is so much confusion about what is "biblical" or not, largely caused by theological biases influencing not only preaching, but also bible interpretation and translation. Also the added connotations of both SDA and JW believing this doctrine makes it look cultish. However, it totally makes sense, is totally correct - so much I would stake my life on it - and puts the bible in context, and i pray we get a whole swathe of bibles translated from the correct perspective, not viewing Sheol as a place but as a condition DEATH. I think that its a case of getting theology right, and putting faith in God and His Holy Spirit to lead us to a correct understanding rather than some Preacher paid by a denomination to toe the line.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[Drew]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

I think that its a case of getting theology right, and putting faith in God and His Holy Spirit to lead us to a correct understanding rather than some Preacher paid by a denomination to toe the line.

I think NT Wright is personally responsible for causing a (good) revolution in my Christian thinking and experience. I have tremendous respect for him. And now, of course, come the "but":......but I wonder whether his high position in the Anglican church (a bishop until recently) puts enormous pressure on him to accept a view that is popular among the flock - namely conscious existence after death.

I think you would agree: it is one thing for someone like you or me to embrace the "sleep" notion; it is quite another another for one who routinely has to comfort the bereaved. People don't want to hear that their loved one is "sleeping" - and may well be sleeping for centuries - before they attain unto the life to come.

On the other hand, I also think its possible that just because Old Testament writers refer to death as "sleep" does not necessarily establish the "sleep" position. I believe that not every statement in the Scriptures can be read as an assertion of theological truth (e.g. "All is meaningless" from Ecclesiastes). Perhaps, repeat perhaps, the scripture writers who refer to "sleep" are speaking metaphorically - from the perspective of the living, the dead can be described as sleeping.

In any event, I do embrace the "sleep" position for reasons I plan to give in a later post.

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

I hope you understand the context of what i have posted, I wont go into revelation, but where it comes to the resurrection..if we were alive in heaven, then there is no reason for the resurrection, technically the resurrection had passed..resurrection means - return to life - if we are in heaven we are alive, not dead! Yet to be resurrected, we must be dead!

Does the believer currently have eternal life ?

 

[reba]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

rebel reading post #61

Does the resurrection of Christ have any bearing on your Scripture choices?

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: (Gen. 3:19, Acts 13:36) but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: (Luke 23:43, Eccl. 12:7) the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. (Heb. 12:23, 2 Cor. 5:1,6,8, Phil. 1:23, Acts 3:21, Eph. 4:10) And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. (Luke 16:23-24, Acts 1:25, Jude 6-7, 1 Pet. 3:19) Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none. (WCF, XXXII.1)

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

No one ever talks about what Heaven will be like before the resurrection of our bodies. If we will be just spirits without a physical body until it's resurrected, how will we be able to, for example, eat in the current Heaven? I don't think we can do what we can now without a body, so we will have to wait until then to enjoy a better existence in the New Heaven which will come to Earth as the New Jerusalem? What will we be able to do in the meantime after death? And why must both heavens be so different from what we now know in this life except for sin? I've heard of some things that people enjoy now won't likely be there. Sin I can understand won't be there, of course. Yet why would God make anything good here to just discard or even replace it after this life?

Will only be there by Eccl. 12:13-14 Record Books! We are all DEAD who stay earth/bound. NO MAN Jer. 4:22-27 again finds left on earth.

Jer. 4
[22] For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down [[at the presence of the LORD]], and by his fierce anger.
[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

Does the believer currently have eternal life ?

Technically yes, but if you want to view it from a first death perspective then no. They will still die on this earth before being resurrected into the next.

But have they been given eternal life? Yes.

Its easy to quibble about a few years but in contrast of eternity...

*[[1Co 15:13-18]] WEB* But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn’t raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised. For if the dead aren’t raised, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Theres no talk of the dead being in heaven, and if someone does go to heaven its in a whirlwind or a vision, and its an aweinspiring moment...but its always physical..you, physically fly to heaven, you have a vision given by the Holy Spirit. I personally feel that the concept of an immortal soul is utterly offensive to the gospel.

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Technically yes, but if you want to view it from a first death perspective then no. They will still die on this earth before being resurrected into the next.

But have they been given eternal life? Yes.

Then your argument here is meaningless ; I hope you understand the context of what i have posted, I wont go into revelation, but where it comes to the resurrection..if we were alive in heaven, then there is no reason for the resurrection, technically the resurrection had passed..resurrection means - return to life - if we are in heaven we are alive, not dead! Yet to be resurrected, we must be dead!

Its easy to quibble about a few years but in contrast of eternity...

*[[1Co 15:13-18]] WEB* But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn’t raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised. For if the dead aren’t raised, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Theres no talk of the dead being in heaven, and if someone does go to heaven its in a whirlwind or a vision, and its an aweinspiring moment...but its always physical..you, physically fly to heaven, you have a vision given by the Holy Spirit. I personally feel that the concept of an immortal soul is utterly offensive to the gospel.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You are mistaken.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: (Gen. 3:19, Acts 13:36) but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: (Luke 23:43, Eccl. 12:7) the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. (Heb. 12:23, 2 Cor. 5:1,6,8, Phil. 1:23, Acts 3:21, Eph. 4:10) And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. (Luke 16:23-24, Acts 1:25, Jude 6-7, 1 Pet. 3:19) Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none. (WCF, XXXII.1)

The question is, as spirit means "nephesh" - breath. How do you constitute consciousness to the breath of God?

You refer to Hell, scripture mentions no such place, your translation may say Hell, but trust me when I say it aint in Greek. However the word "Hell" doesnt matter.

A soul is a living body, thats what it says in Genesis 2:7, Adam "became a living being".

*[[Gen 2:7]] WEB* Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

He became a living soul! We are the soul, yet when we die God takes his breath back. We do not live on unless God chooses to allow it.

So suddenly the Eternal/Everlasting life of John 3:16 has more meaning. I mean if God did not have any control over us short of choosing whether we go to "heaven" or "hell", could people not be forgiven for saying "how dare you condemn me to hell for eternity, I'm an eternal being..let me explore the astral planes and live out eternity in peace. (Just saying, new agers believe in eternal souls too, in fact its intrinsic to their beliefs).

But instead we have a God who does what he says in the bible, he grants eternal physical life in a brand new universe, no..we dont become little gods or have our own universe, we live in this one, with God dwelling on earth with us...dont believe me? Read it in revelation at the back of the book..its not symbolic, its stated very plainly!

Heres the entire chapter so everyone can see what the end for us is!

*[[Rev 21:1-27]] WEB* I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.” He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.” He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.” He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, as if it were a jasper stone, clear as crystal; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. On the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb. He who spoke with me had for a measure, a golden reed, to measure the city, its gates, and its walls. The city lies foursquare, and its length is as great as its breadth. He measured the city with the reed, Twelve thousand twelve stadia. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Its wall is one hundred forty-four cubits, by the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. The construction of its wall was jasper. The city was pure gold, like pure glass. The foundations of the city’s wall were adorned with all kinds of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, jacinth; and the twelfth, amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls. Each one of the gates was made of one pearl. The street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple. The city has no need for the sun, neither of the moon, to shine, for the very glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk in its light. The kings of the earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. Its gates will in no way be shut by day (for there will be no night there), and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it so that they may enter. There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

You are mistaken.

If you check my last post you see i define soul.

Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice. These are martyrs killed by the spirit of antichrist.
The white robe is redemption..they are made clean. They rest as in SLEEP until the rest of the christians are killed also (i.e. Not raptured) then Jesus returns and *drumroll* the dead in Christ will rise first!

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

Nothing here touches the issue at hand.

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

If you check my last post you see i define soul.

Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice. These are martyrs killed by the spirit of antichrist.
The white robe is redemption..they are made clean. They rest as in SLEEP until the rest of the christians are killed also (i.e. Not raptured) then Jesus returns and *drumroll* the dead in Christ will rise first!

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.





You have purposely misrepresented and altered the Scripture, as ,of course, you must.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.





You have purposely misrepresented and altered the Scripture, as ,of course, you must.

So you say, however...all these millions said the same thing in one voice? Or did their blood cry out? You know the cry for justice? I have no need to misrepresent scripture, I am participating in a friendly discussion thats all, I dont want nor need to convince you of anything. I have no denominational affiliations, no books to sell, nor am I starting my own church. I simply read my bible and glean what I can from it

Anyway, I believe this piece is metaphorical, based soley on the fact of the later resurrection, there are many places in the OT where God talks of blood crying for justice. I think this is the case. I know you believe souls mean departed spirits that are consciously aware, whilst I believe this to be in error you are free to believe whatever you want.

If we are in the last days of this age, we will likely see for ourselves if you are right, I'll let you know when we stand in heaven. If I am right, we'll laugh about it in the millenial kingdom

 

[Hitch]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

So you say, however

No this is what you posted;

Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice. These are martyrs killed by the spirit of antichrist.
The white robe is redemption..they are made clean. They rest as in SLEEP until the rest of the christians are killed also (i.e. Not raptured) then Jesus returns and *drumroll* the dead in Christ will rise first!

Emphasis added.

And this is what the Scripture says;

9And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,

...all these millions said the same thing in one voice? Or did their blood cry out? You know the cry for justice? I have no need to misrepresent scripture, I am participating in a friendly discussion thats all, I dont want nor need to convince you of anything. I have no denominational affiliations, no books to sell, nor am I starting my own church. I simply read my bible and glean what I can from it

Well you didnt read
Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice, in any Bible, its not there you made it up .

Anyway, I believe this piece is metaphorical, based soley on the fact of the later resurrection, there are many places in the OT where God talks of blood crying for justice. I think this is the case. I know you believe souls mean departed spirits that are consciously aware, whilst I believe this to be in error you are free to believe whatever you want.

If we are in the last days of this age, we will likely see for ourselves if you are right, I'll let you know when we stand in heaven. If I am right, we'll laugh about it in the millenial kingdom

 

[thethinkingrebel]

No this is what you posted;

Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice. These are martyrs killed by the spirit of antichrist.
The white robe is redemption..they are made clean. They rest as in SLEEP until the rest of the christians are killed also (i.e. Not raptured) then Jesus returns and *drumroll* the dead in Christ will rise first!

Emphasis added.

And this is what the Scripture says;

9And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, Well you didnt read
Bodies lying under the altar, crying out for justice, in any Bible, its not there you made it up .

Well like I said, its not for me to make you believe. Its the truth, you dont believe it thats fine..I believe in freedom.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

So you say, however...all these millions said the same thing in one voice? Or did their blood cry out? You know the cry for justice? I have no need to misrepresent scripture, I am participating in a friendly discussion thats all, I dont want nor need to convince you of anything. I have no denominational affiliations, no books to sell, nor am I starting my own church. I simply read my bible and glean what I can from it

Anyway, I believe this piece is metaphorical, based soley on the fact of the later resurrection, there are many places in the OT where God talks of blood crying for justice. I think this is the case. I know you believe souls mean departed spirits that are consciously aware, whilst I believe this to be in error you are free to believe whatever you want.

If we are in the last days of this age, we will likely see for ourselves if you are right, I'll let you know when we stand in heaven. If I am right, we'll laugh about it in the millenial kingdom

But where do we see mankind having a spirit seperate from being given the Holy Spirit? (if they have been) And then, even having a 'thinking brain' while dead?? (Psalms 51:10-11!)
And Psalms 115:17-18??? (and that is just one in many documentations of Inspiration!)

Psalms 115
[17] The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down [[into silence]]. (that as with many verses sounds like being brain dead to me)

 

[thethinkingrebel]

But where do we see mankind having a spirit seperate from being given the Holy Spirit? (if they have been) And then, even having a 'thinking brain' while dead?? (Psalms 51:10-11!)
And Psalms 115:17-18??? (and that is just one in many documentations of Inspiration!)

Psalms 115
[17] The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down [[into silence]]. (that as with many verses sounds like being brain dead to me)

The Holy Spirit is "the comforter", given seperately and upon being born again. The original spirit that all recieve is the breath of God. It is in essence, life!

The problem we have is that our theology influences the translations...rather than our translations being simply accurately translated, if anything is too difficult it will be rendered according to theological bias, rather than based upon the true meaning. Any translations that stray from traditional translation will often result in scare tactics, and screams off "corrupt, corrupt" and people will back away from reading it.

I would render soul as body/life and I would render spirit as breath, I would keep Holy Spirit, theres no theological or translational reason to change it, but the NWT rendering of God's Active Force, is not blasphemous, evil, or corrupt.

I agree with you, when we die we are dead..I simply wasnt in a position to quote verses at that timr, I hope my opinion is clearly stated now

 

[jasoncran]

Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection

im no longer a jw but uh what exactly was the spirits that came to the transfiguration to whom peter saw and named? moses and elijah.

the writers of the nwt didnt even know greek fluently.