Bible Study What would the outcome might have been if Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit given to him by Eve?

[New Day Coming]

C.S Lewis explores the question of "what might have happened" really well in his book "Perelandra" if anyone is interested in digging in a bit deeper.

 

[Jim Parker]

Right. I have a hard time even spelling the word correctly, much less promoting what they believe (if there even is an anhillilation creed of some sort, IDK). I’m not much of an expert on that particular ism. I do promote the destructionism view of the lost, however, of both the body and soul in Hell.

Annihilation refers to the concept that the body and soul are reduced to ashes or non-existence in hell

It’s obvious Thayer is giving us his interpretation (commentary) on this passage, not the word’s actual meaning (which is what Lexicons are supposed to do,

Thayer was the expert of his time and continues to be accepted as an expert source until today. Neither of us have the training to challenge his conclusions.

 

[chessman]

Annihilation refers to the concept that the body and soul are reduced to ashes

So kinda like what happened to Lot's wife?

Luke 17:28-32 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)​

28 Likewise, just as it happened in the days of Lot [in Gen 19]— they were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building. 29 But on the day Lot departed from Sodom, it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed everyone. 30 It will be the same way on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let he who will be on the housetop and his things in the house not go down to take them. And let the one in a field likewise not turn-back to the things behind. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. ​

Thayer was the expert of his time and continues to be accepted as an expert source until today

No doubt. Never said otherwise. But prone to mistakes.

Neither of us have the training to challenge his conclusions.

I'm just questioning whether (or not) the destruction Jesus spoke of in Matt 10:28 that only God can do (that will occur to the lost's bodies AND soul in Hell) is going to be like what occurred to Sodom and Lot's wife (or not). Or will it be metaphorical destruction (nothing at all like the first death to use a phrase someone else said of it).

Hmm, do you think Lot's wife was metaphorically turned to a pillar of salt? I'm thinking not.

 

[chessman]

people who are alive but reject Christ as said to be "dead in their sins and trespasses." (Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13) They are "dead" but appear to be alive, breathing air, pumping blood, eating, drinking, walking around, etc.

So would you say they (the people who are alive but reject Christ) are ‘spiritually dead’?

So what you are missing is the fact that words (like death) can have more than one meaning.

I understand words are sometimes used properly and sometimes used metaphorically within any given sentence. The Bible (OT and NT) is full of metaphorical language, to include using the word death metaphorically. But it's not that difficult to determine which is the case (metaphorical versus proper). And there are grammatical rules for doing so. It's actually the context of the sentence that determines any given word's meaning (that is a proper meaning versus a metaphorical meaning from within the word's range of possible meanings). Example:

And the rock was Christ.​

1 Corinthians 10:4c​

​

Paul’s not saying the physical rock Moses struck twice was literally Christ, is he?

 

[Randy]

Would there be a Fall?

Death would enter the world through the one women but since it takes both male and female to have children the death of Eve would end that outlook. I assume God would have given Adam another wife.

Or perhaps Adam would wonder why Eve keeps hiding behind the bushes. (smile)

Adam is not responsible for anything Eve did just as Eve is not responsible for anything Adam did. Each were held accountable for their own actions.

Moses was held accountable for striking the rock despite His outlook that the people drove him to the point of frustration.

 

[Razeontherock]

​

Paul’s not saying the physical rock Moses struck twice was literally Christ, is he?

The Rock followed them through the desert, giving them water to drink; which Rock was Christ.

 

[chessman]

Adam is not responsible for anything Eve did just as Eve is not responsible for anything Adam did. Each were held accountable for their own actions.

And to Adam he [God] said, “Because you listened to the voice of your wife and you ate from the tree from which I forbade you to eat, the ground shall be cursed on your account. In pain you shall eat from it all the days of your life.​

Genesis 3:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:17&version=LEB

What responsibility did the ground have in The Fall?
What two reasons did God say Adam would receive pain all his days?
Which reason occurs first?

 

[chessman]

The Rock followed them through the desert

So by capitalizing rock, would you say it’s a word Paul used metaphorically?

 

[Jim Parker]

So kinda like what happened to Lot's wife?

Was Lot's wife reduced to ashes?

 

[Jim Parker]

So would you say they (the people who are alive but reject Christ) are ‘spiritually dead’?

Well, we haven't agreed upon a definition of "spiritually dead" but I would say that, because they have separated themselves from Christ by refusing to repent and refusing to believe that they are dead in their spirit and soul.

But it's not that difficult to determine which is the case (metaphorical versus proper). And there are grammatical rules for doing so. It's actually the context of the sentence that determines any given word's meaning (that is a proper meaning versus a metaphorical meaning from within the word's range of possible meanings).

When it is not that easy, I defer to an expert like Thayer.

And the rock was Christ.

Not "the rock" but "that spiritual rock.".
" and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

 

[chessman]

Was Lot's wife reduced to ashes?

Yes, as a matter ofl fact, her body was but cremated ashes:

Then Abraham answered and said, “Look, please, I was bold to speak to my Lord, but I am dust and ashes.​

Genesis 18:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 18:27&version=LEB

When it is not that easy, I defer to an expert like Thayer.

Thayer wasn’t even born when Jesus spoke to His friends in Matthew’s account, recorded for us in Matt 10:28 and Luke’s in Luke 12:4-5. Do you think everyone needed Thayer’s interpretation of what the utter destruction of both body and soul is to understand what a second death (as compared to the first) is?

we haven't agreed upon a definition of "spiritually dead"

I was using Thayer’s:
(spiritually dead, i. e.) "destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins;
http://biblehub.com/greek/3498.htm

Not "the rock" but "that spiritual rock.".

So it is context that determines the meaning of “rock” very much like when the context is specifically comparing the death of the body only (very literal) to that of both body and soul in Hell (very literal).

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, as a matter ofl fact, her body was but cremated ashes:
Then Abraham answered and said, “Look, please, I was bold to speak to my Lord, but I am dust and ashes.

Chessman, that was Abraham talking to God about himself. He was using a metaphor to express his humility. It has absolutely nothing to do with Lot's wife
AS for Lot's wife, the Bible says,
"But his (Lot's) wife looked back behind him and she became a pillar of salt." (Gen 19:26)

Thayer wasn’t even born when Jesus spoke to His friends in Matthew’s account,

That is totally irrelevant.
Thayer was the leading expert of his generation on the translation of NT Greek and his lexicon continues today to be a standard reference for students of NT Greek.
Neither you not I possess the expertise to correct him.

So it is context that determines the meaning of “rock” very much like when the context is specifically comparing the death of the body only (very literal) to that of both body and soul in Hell (very literal).

No. Not at all like.
I'm really sorry but, I'm just do not seem to be able to explain this to in a way that that you can understand.
My bad.
So, I'm going to quit trying now. OK?

Be blessed.


iakov the fool

 

[Randy]

And to Adam he [God] said, “Because you listened to the voice of your wife and you ate from the tree from which I forbade you to eat, the ground shall be cursed on your account. In pain you shall eat from it all the days of your life.​

Genesis 3:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:17&version=LEB

What responsibility did the ground have in The Fall?
What two reasons did God say Adam would receive pain all his days?
Which reason occurs first?

What do your questions have to do with what I wrote?

The ground would no longer bear fruit unless Adam ,through labor, worked it. That was a judgment based off HIS sin. The question was what if He didn't sin. God didn't judge the ground.

Randy

 

[chessman]

He was using a metaphor to express his humility. It has absolutely nothing to do with Lot's wife

Incorrect, it has much to do with Lot’s wife’s (and the wicked) destruction. He was expressing to God exactly what we all know (without Thayer’s help) happens to the physical body (literally) should God choose to “kill” and “destroy” it with fire (along with the wicked).

And Abraham drew near to Yahweh and said, “Will you also sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Far be it from you to do such a thing as this, to kill the righteous with the wicked, that the righteous would be as the wicked! Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do justice?” Then Abraham answered and said, “Look, please, I was bold to speak to my Lord, but I am dust and ashes. Perhaps the fifty righteous are lacking five—will you destroy the whole city on account of the five?” And he answered, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.”​

Genesis 18:23,25,27-28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 18:23,25,27-28&version=LEB

And Luke (and Peter and Jude) specifically tell us that Sodom’s and Lot’s wife’s destruction IS like the wicked’s destruction. Very literal!

AS for Lot's wife, the Bible says,
"But his (Lot's) wife looked back behind him and she became a pillar of salt." (Gen 19:26)

Yes, she (her living body that is) was destroyed by the fire (1st death) same as Sodom and it’s inhabitants. “Same way”, “like” will be shown to happen to both the body and soul (2nd death) in Hell. It is “an example”. Very literally!

And after bringing them outside one said, “Flee for your life; do not look behind you, and do not stand anywhere in the plain. Flee to the mountains lest you be destroyed.” Yahweh rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh. And he overthrew those cities and the whole plain, and the inhabitants of the cities and the vegetation of the ground. But his wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.​

Genesis 19:17,24-26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 19:17,24-26&version=LEB

Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—... Remember Lot’s wife!​

Luke 17:28,32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 17:28,32&version=LEB

and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,​

2 Peter 2:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:6&version=LEB

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Sorry Thayer, but the destruction of Sodom and Lot’s wife’s body was very literal (not metaphorical) and specifically called out as what will occur to the rest of the wicked.

I'm going to quit trying now. OK?

OK.

Be blessed.

Literally or metaphorically?

You too!

 

[Edward]

I thought she was turned into a pillar of salt?

Are we taking that as metaphorical?

 

[chessman]

What responsibility did the ground have in The Fall?
What two reasons did God say Adam would receive pain all his days?
Which reason occurs first?

What do your questions have to do with what I wrote?

There answers demonstrate your premise Is false.

You said:

Adam is not responsible for anything Eve did

Yes he was responsible! He had a responsibility to guard her as she was a part of him. She was formed from a part of him (his rib, to be his “counterpart”). And he was formed from the dust of the Earth (the ground). And he was supposed to “guard/keep” the garden, not just cultivate it’s plants. When she failed, he hadn’t guarded/keep her as told.

God didn't judge the ground.

Incorrect. I appreciate your sentiment but the fact remains God DID curse the ground. Why? [think about it]

Again, God said this (not me):
the ground shall be cursed on your account.

 

[Randy]

There answers demonstrate your premise Is false.

You said:

Yes he was responsible! He had a responsibility to guard her as she was a part of him. She was formed from a part of him (his rib, to be his “counterpart”). And he was formed from the dust of the Earth (the ground). And he was supposed to “guard/keep” the garden, not just cultivate it’s plants. When she failed, he hadn’t guarded/keep her as told.


Incorrect. I appreciate your sentiment but the fact remains God DID curse the ground. Why? [think about it]

Again, God said this (not me):
the ground shall be cursed on your account.

MY premise is not false. If Adam choose not to sin and Eve Choose to sin as the OP stated then Adam would not have been held responsible. As in Rev when there is no more curse the ground will yield 12 crops of fruit without mans labor. God will provide as he did before Adam sinned. After the fall Adam had to toil the ground for that food source. (hard labor/work) Thats what is meant by "cursing the ground" and it was a judgment against Adam because He choose to listen to his wife rather then obey Gods command.
God to Adam because you did this..
God to Eve because you did this..

Do you think it was the ground that provided for Adam and Eve before they sinned or that God provided?

 

[Jim Parker]

Incorrect, it has much to do with Lot’s wife’s (and the wicked) destruction. He was expressing to God exactly what we all know (without Thayer’s help) happens to the physical body (literally) should God choose to “kill” and “destroy” it with fire (along with the wicked).

And Abraham drew near to Yahweh and said, “Will you also sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Far be it from you to do such a thing as this, to kill the righteous with the wicked, that the righteous would be as the wicked! Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do justice?” Then Abraham answered and said, “Look, please, I was bold to speak to my Lord, but I am dust and ashes. Perhaps the fifty righteous are lacking five—will you destroy the whole city on account of the five?” And he answered, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.”​

Genesis 18:23,25,27-28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 18:23,25,27-28&version=LEB

And Luke (and Peter and Jude) specifically tell us that Sodom’s and Lot’s wife’s destruction IS like the wicked’s destruction. Very literal!


Yes, she (her living body that is) was destroyed by the fire (1st death) same as Sodom and it’s inhabitants. “Same way”, “like” will be shown to happen to both the body and soul (2nd death) in Hell. It is “an example”. Very literally!

And after bringing them outside one said, “Flee for your life; do not look behind you, and do not stand anywhere in the plain. Flee to the mountains lest you be destroyed.” Yahweh rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh. And he overthrew those cities and the whole plain, and the inhabitants of the cities and the vegetation of the ground. But his wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.​

Genesis 19:17,24-26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 19:17,24-26&version=LEB

Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—... Remember Lot’s wife!​

Luke 17:28,32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 17:28,32&version=LEB

and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,​

2 Peter 2:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:6&version=LEB

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Sorry Thayer, but the destruction of Sodom and Lot’s wife’s body was very literal (not metaphorical) and specifically called out as what will occur to the rest of the wicked.


OK.

Literally or metaphorically?

You too!

As I said in my last post.
I will not continue this discussion.
You have a great day.

 

[justthefacts1]

Simply: It is appointed unto man (Flesh) once to die, but then the judgment.

I have not read all the entrees on this thread, but I do imagine that many have clearly answered the opening question satisfactory, but yet, the question itself is mute and unedifying, for our Heavenly Father who knows all things (past. present, and future) knew that "eth Ha a dam" or the one we call Adam would fail in the garden which thereby grace could be offered unto all mankind through the coming Lord Jesus Christ. In other words: there are no "what if's" in our Heavenly Fathers plan for His children.

God Bless

JTF1

 

[Jim Parker]

question itself is mute

That's "moot;" subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision.
"Mute" means unable or unwilling to speak.
No extra charge!!!

our Heavenly Father who knows all things (past. present, and future) knew that "eth Ha a dam" or the one we call Adam would fail in the garden which thereby grace could be offered unto all mankind through the coming Lord Jesus Christ. In other words: there are no "what if's" in our Heavenly Fathers plan for His children.

Amen!