Bible Study What would the outcome might have been if Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit given to him by Eve?

[Jim Parker]

So 2nd is ‘entirely different’ from the 1st??? Like 2nd base is entirely different than 1st base, right.
The 2nd death is more fearful than the first:
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The first death is the death of the physical body. When we die our body quits working and begins to decay but our soul does not die. It either is present with the Lord (believers) or it remains in "Hades" (not believers.)
At the resurrection, everyone is raised and their body is a "spiritual" body. (1Cor 15)
That body doesn't decay, doesn't wear out; doesn't get old; and it never dies.
If you were a believer, at the resurrection, when your soul is rejoined to your (new spiritual) body, you have eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven with God.
If you were not a believer, at the resurrection, you get the same new body but you have eternal death in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. And that is the 2nd death.

Easy, their destruction lasts forever.

If by "destruction" you mean reduced to ashes or annihilation, that is a heretical teaching promoted by the JWs and the 7th Day Adventists.

it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved.http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html

What's the rest of the citation?
That book has 35 chapters each with multiple paragraphs.
You have not identified which one you cited.

CHAPTER XVII.--BEWARE OF FALSE DOCTRINES.
For this end did the Lord suffer the ointment to be poured upon His head, that He might breathe immortality into His Church.

Read the previous chapter:
CHAPTER XVI.--THE FATE OF FALSE TEACHERS.
Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.
There would be no need for the fire to be everlasting if the people sent there were mortal and could be killed a 2nd time.

For he who keepeth these [judgments of the Lord] shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution.http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html

And there are 21 chapters in the Epistle of Barnabas.
You have not identified which one you cited.

Islam teaches that the righteous and the wicked are resurrected immortal.

So does scripture.
There are points of agreement between the teachings of Jesus and of many other religions. The truth is the truth no matter who says it.
The fact that Islam got something right does not have any bearing on the teaching of the Bible.

So, what do you think the word "destruction" means?
Here's what the scripture says about those who are punished in the lake of fire:
Rev 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

The smoke of their torment cannot ascend forever unless the torment also continues forever.
For the torment to continue forever, those being tormented must also continue to exist forever.
To continue to exist forever requires immortality and incorruptibility.

 

[Jim Parker]

Condemned to Immortality: A meditation on the Resurrection

April 23, 2011 in Orthodox Saints and Church Fathers, Orthodox Sermons & News

By Archiamandrite Justin Popovic
(blessed memory; commemorated April 7)​

People condemned God to death; with His Resurrection He condemned them to immortality. For striking Him, God returned embraces; for insults, blessings; for death, immortality. Never did men show more hate towards God than when they crucified Him; and God never showed His love towards people more than when He was resurrected. Mankind wanted to make God dead, but God, with His Resurrection, made people alive, the crucified God resurrected on the third day and thereby killed death ! There is no more death. Immortality is surrounding man and his entire world.

With the Resurrection of the God-Man, the nature of man is irreversibly led toward the road of immortality and man’s nature becomes destructive to death itself. For until the Resurrection of Christ, death was destructive for man; from the Resurrection of Christ, man’s nature becomes destructive in death. If man lives in the faith of the Resurrected God Man, he lives above death, he is unreachable for her; death is under man’s feet. Death where is thy sting? Hell, where is thy victory? And when a man who believes in Christ dies, he only leaves his body as his clothes, in which he will be dressed again on the Day of Last Judgment.

 

[chessman]

When we die our body quits working and begins to decay but our soul does not die.

correct and Biblical. Only The One is able destroy a body and soul in Hell:

Matthew 10:28 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)​

28 And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna​

Which means that any notion that everyone's resurrected body cannot decay (be corrupted) in Hell is contrary to Jesus's teaching (and at least three Early Church Fathers understanding of Jesus's teaching through His disciples).

At the resurrection, everyone is raised and their body is a "spiritual" body. (1Cor 15)
That body doesn't decay, doesn't wear out; doesn't get old; and it never dies.

Incorrect and unbiblical. The destruction of the wicked's raised body in Hell is most certainly possible.

1Cor 15 is an announcement of the good-new "to you", to "brothers" who are in Christ. It is only "the ones of Christ at His coming" that overcome death are thus victorious in Him. It's a famous universalist twisting of Paul's announcement here to apply that same victory over death to those who are not in Christ.

1 Cor 15:1 Now I make-known to you, brothers, the good-news which I announced-as-good-news to you ...​

20 But now, Christ has been raised from the dead— the firstfruit of the ones having fallen-asleep. ...​

22 For just as in Adam all die​

So you say those who are only in Adam (not in Christ) "never die", yet Paul specifically says all in Adam die. Odd, and again contrary to at least three of the original church father's teaching on the subject.

If you were a believer, at the resurrection, when your soul is rejoined to your (new spiritual) body, you have eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven with God.

Paul also defines this new "spiritual body" that only we brothers in Christ receive (as a gift BTW) at the resurrection "bearing the image of the heavenly One".

So to test the chapter's applicability of all of mankind being raised immortal and incorruptible; Ask, does all mankind bear the image of the heavenly One on your view? Or is it "brothers" (brothers of the heavenly One that is) that will bear His resurrected image (spiritual body)? Easy answer, really. It is the church that is the body of Christ, not those outside the church.

1 Corinthians 15:48-49 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)​

48 Such as was the one made-of-dust— such ones also are the ones made-of-dust. And such as is the heavenly One— such ones also are the heavenly ones. 49 And just as we bore the image of the one made of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly One.​

If you were not a believer, at the resurrection, you get the same new body but you have eternal death in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. And that is the 2nd death.

Never mind, I see your answer to my question above (everyone get's the image of the heavenly One (spiritual body) on your view).

What's the rest of the citation?
That book has 35 chapters each with multiple paragraphs.
click the link and do a word search for the quote. Takes about 5 seconds.
You have not identified which one you cited.

I provided a link to the entire book. All you have to do is search for the phrase "he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed" and it is immediately becomes clear that the teaching found within the Epistle to Barnabas teaches that the lost are not gifted immortality (or incorruptibility) as us brothers are.

Read the previous chapter:

I have. There's nothing that conflicts with it being only those who brothers in Christ, that are raised in Christ's image.

There would be no need for the fire to be everlasting if the people sent there were mortal and could be killed a 2nd time.

Umm, the fire is everlasting. Even before the creation of the first human (Adam) the fire was everlasting. So your logic doesn't pass muster. Not to mention that the fire is a consuming fire.

And there are 21 chapters in the Epistle of Barnabas.
You have not identified which one you cited.

I provided the link. It's in the conclusion. Much like Jesus's conclusion that God will most certainly destroy both the body and soul of the wicked when they are cast into Hell. Compare the disciple's recollection of His teaching about the destruction of the wicked's bodies and souls in Matt 10:28 and Luke 12:5

The fact that Islam got something right does not have any bearing on the teaching of the Bible.

Then your mentioning the JW's teaching has no bearing either. Why mention it???

So, what do you think the word "destruction" means?

It is the outcome of the action (verb) to destroy. Utter elimination of something, in this case, the destruction of both body and soul of the resurrected wicked in Hell.

The smoke of their torment cannot ascend forever unless the torment also continues forever.

Sure it can. Just as the smoke of the World Trade Center's destruction is still being disbursed around the World to this day. As is the biblical example of the destruction of Edom.

But since you mentioned what 'cannot happen'; How can someone who is raised incorruptible be corrupt (as would be the case if you think Paul means the wicked are also raised incorruptible)?

 

[Jim Parker]

Matthew 10:28 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)28 And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna
Which means that any notion that everyone's resurrected body cannot decay (be corrupted) in Hell is contrary to Jesus's teaching (and at least three Early Church Fathers understanding of Jesus's teaching through His disciples).

Then you do not believe in eternal punishment in hell.

 

[chessman]

Then you do not believe in eternal punishment in hell.

Incorrect. [And I’m in a much better position to say what I believe and do not believe than you are.]

A complete Bible study shows that the raised lost’s eternal punishment is a penalty consisting of the eternal destruction of both their bodies and souls.

who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=LEB

Proof that Paul not only didn’t say all humankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible but did not imply it nor teach it. The lost are destroyed in Hel, not immortal.

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=LEB

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

 

[Jim Parker]

Incorrect. [And I’m in a much better position to say what I believe and do not believe than you are.]

A complete Bible study shows that the raised lost’s eternal punishment is a penalty consisting of the eternal destruction of both their bodies and souls.

who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=LEB

Proof that Paul not only didn’t say all humankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible but did not imply it nor teach it. The lost are destroyed in Hel, not immortal.

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=LEB

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

Why anyone would think all humankind

OK
Please clarify.
Exactly what do you mean by the word "destruction."
Do you mean that they no longer exist because they have been destroyed?

According to Thayer's Lexicon, the use of the word "destroy" at Mat 10:28 should be understood as" metaphorically, to devote or give over to eternal misery: Matthew 10:28; James 4:12;

To suffer "eternal misery" requires that one exist eternally. That is what immortality is: eternal existence.

Also, per Thayer's:
a. of persons; (a). properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.; ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐν μαχαρια, Matthew 26:52; καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ' οὐκ ἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9. (b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 (R Lbr.), John 3:16; John 10:28; 17:12 (it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σῳζόμενοι they to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:10

Eternal misery requires eternal conscious existence. Eternal conscious existence is immortality.

 

[Razeontherock]

I'm pretty sure this comes straight from Thayers: "according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith)"

That's the way I've always understood it.

I wonder if what we're seeing in this conversation is the clash between Calvin's conclusion of how the Cross impacts our species, vs what came before him?

In any event I don't see a real difference between being "eternally destroyed" vs being raised immortal and incorruptible unto the second death. It seems to me these are merely two different ways of saying the same thing.

 

[chessman]

Do you mean that they no longer exist because they have been destroyed?

I mean destruction of both their body and soul. 1st death, destruction of the body only. 2nd death, more fearful, destruction of both body and soul.

According to Thayer's Lexicon, the use of the word "destroy" at Mat 10:28 should be understood as" metaphorically, to devote or give over to eternal misery: Matthew 10:28; James 4:12;

Does Thayer believe the first desth’s destruction of the body is metaphorical?

That is what immortality is: eternal existence.

Actually it means unable to die. Thus, the fact that they receive a second death, means the lost do not have immortality (or incorruptibility).

 

[Edward]

To suffer "eternal misery" requires that one exist eternally. That is what immortality is: eternal existence

Yeah but eternal misery isn't much of a life, and they'll have no liberty.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yeah but eternal misery isn't much of a life, and they'll have no liberty.

And so it is called the "second death."

 

[Jim Parker]

2nd death, more fearful, destruction of both body and soul.

Do you mean that the body and soul cease to exist?

Does Thayer believe the first desth’s destruction of the body is metaphorical?

What Thayer believed is irrelevant.
Joseph Henry Thayer was a Biblical scholar whose Greek-English Lexicon is still regarded as the standard reference source for interpretation of the Greek NT.

Actually it means unable to die. Thus, the fact that they receive a second death, means the lost do not have immortality (or incorruptibility).

If they do not have immortality and incorruptibility then their torment could not continue forever but Rev 14:11 says "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever". It cannot last for ever and ever if their bodies and souls do not exist for ever and ever and for that to happen requires immortality and incorruptibility.

 

[chessman]

What Thayer believed is irrelevant.

Okay, but you brought him up.

Do you mean that the body and soul cease to exist?

I mean what our Lord clearly means (all bias aside): When He teaches on what occurs to the lost’s body in Hell (and He’s not speaking metaphorically unless you think He teaches us to metaphorically fear God) He specifically compared the body’s destruction to death (the first death). He does so for a reason. We can all see and empirically verify what happens to dead bodies. They don’t metaphorically decay (return to the dust), they literally decay. Thus , the lost literally get the same (death of the body) a second time (second death) in addition to their soul’s destruction this time around.

I find it interesting that Thayer would call out a metaphorical meaning of Matt 10:28’s destruction when Jesus specifically says fear it. Plus compared it to something very much un-metaphorical.

If they do not have immortality and incorruptibility then their torment could not continue forever

The passage doesn’t say their torment lasts forever and ever any more than Paul says the lost are raised immortal. You have to add that idea to what the Text actually says.

It cannot last for ever and ever if their bodies and souls do not exist for ever and ever

Again, logically speaking, if those in Hell really are immortal (and not just immortal but given victory, “glorified bodies”, etc.). as you claim they get, just like the saved get, then how can they experience second “death”? (That’s what illogical.)

By inferring that Paul is speaking of how all humans (including non-brothers) are raised in 1 Cor 15 (versus what he actually says, “brothers”, “we”, “us”), then logically speaking one must also believe the lost receive not only incorruptibility but also; glory and power.

Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. ​

1 Corinthians 15:42-43- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:42-44&version=LEB

 

[Jim Parker]

Okay, but you brought him up.

I referred to Thayer's Lexicon because it has been the standard reference text for translation of NT Greek for the past 120+ years. No one has come up with a better reference source.

I mean what our Lord clearly means (all bias aside): When He teaches on what occurs to the lost’s body in Hell (and He’s not speaking metaphorically unless you think He teaches us to metaphorically fear God) He specifically compared the body’s destruction to death (the first death). He does so for a reason. We can all see and empirically verify what happens to dead bodies. They don’t metaphorically decay (return to the dust), they literally decay. Thus , the lost literally get the same (death of the body) a second time (second death) in addition to their soul’s destruction this time around.

Your logic would be sound if the scriptures had originally been written if modern English.
But they weren't.
And THE expert in the field has stated that what is being communicated is metaphorical.
The second death is not just like like the first death.
It is an eternity of suffering.
That required an immortal and incorruptible body and soul.

Neither I nor you are qualified to refute Thayer.

 

[chessman]

No one has come up with a better reference source

Incorrect. Thayer’s is still popular because it’s available for free online, unlike the better dictionaries. There are several more comprehensive and up to date scholarly than Thayer.

Take, for example, what Duff/Wenhan has to say:

“The standard dictionary for scholarly work is A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature” University of Chicago Press​

​

http://a.co/d1JizlY​

Neither I nor you are qualified to refute Thayer.

But Jesus is. And again, He obviously was not speaking metaphorically. Do you think the death and the decay of the 1st body is metaphorical also?

Your logic would be sound if the scriptures had originally been written if modern English.

Logic doesn’t change with the times or languages.

And THE expert in the field has stated that what is being communicated is metaphorical.

So this expert’s opinion means:

1. Jesus emphasized their 2nd death’s utter destruction of both their body and soul this time (at their 2nd death) over and above what we all can see literally happens to their 1st body (and fear it’s literal death, BTW), yet He didn’t literally mean it???

2. And 2nd doesn’t mean 2nd (coming after the first of it’s kind).

3. And death doesn’t literally mean loss of life.

4. And destroy doesn’t literally mean destroy.

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó​

http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm​

5. And at least three Early Church Fathers (previously posted) specifically wrote about the mortality of the raised lost.

6. And logic changes with time.

7. And the lost are raised with glory and power, just like the saved.

 

[Jim Parker]

Thayer’s is still popular because it’s available for free online, unlike the better dictionaries. There are several more comprehensive and up to date scholarly than Thayer.
Take, for example, what Duff/Wenhan has to say:
“The standard dictionary for scholarly work is A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature” University of Chicago Presshttp://a.co/d1JizlY

As proof of a "better" resource you have quoted AN ADVERTISEMENT for a book being sold by Amazon.

He obviously was not speaking metaphorically.

It may be "obvious" to you but you are not the "last word" of Biblical interpretation. (neither am I. That's why I consult experts.)

Do you think the death and the decay of the 1st body is metaphorical also?

NO.
And what you and I think is not definitive of what the Bible is communicating.

Logic doesn’t change with the times or languages.

You missed the point.
The words are the "raw material" of the logic.
THEREFORE; it is important to use the original words written by those who spoke them fluently in the culture in which they were uttered rather than in modern English spoken in a culture that is as far distant from that of the NT as possible while remaining on this planet.

1. Jesus emphasized their 2nd death’s utter destruction of both their body and soul this time

And for 2000 years the entire (orthodox) church (not including heretical sects) has taught that the second death was a term used to describe the eternal ONGOING misery of those who rejected God's will for them.

On what basis do you know better than the universal teaching of the Church for the past 2000 years?

And death doesn’t literally mean loss of life.

I never said that.
One can only have eternal life in Christ.
Note that people who are alive but reject Christ as said to be "dead in their sins and trespasses." (Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13) They are "dead" but appear to be alive, breathing air, pumping blood, eating, drinking, walking around, etc.
So what you are missing is the fact that words (like death) can have more than one meaning.

Those who suffer the second death have eternal (never ending), conscious existence separated from God and suffering the punishment for their rejection of Christ in whom is life.

And destroy doesn’t literally mean destroy.

Again, words have more than one meaning.
And again, the words in Koine Greek do not have the exact same meaningS as words in modern English.

And at least three Early Church Fathers (previously posted) specifically wrote about the mortality of the raised lost.

I'm still waiting for the complete citations to verify that what you posted has not been lifted out of context.
Until you provide the citations so that I can check them, I will not respond.

And logic changes with time.

Logic does not change with time any more than mathematics changes with time.
What was logical 2000 years ago is logical today.
Logic was formally put forth by Aristotle (384–322 BC) and has not changed since.
It is language which changes and it is language on which I believe you are stumbling.

And the lost are raised with glory and power, just like the saved.

I never said that.
Here's a good description of the eternal state of the resurrected wicked:

350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19).

For more see: http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm

 

[Jim Parker]

Anti-Nicene Fathers on Eternal Punishment

All references are to the Hendrickson Publishers edition of the Anti-Nicene Fathers.
The fist number is the volume. The second number is the page.
“2.244” therefore, refers to volume 2, page 244

Christ foretold that Satan would be sent into the fire with his host, along with the men who follow him, and they will be punished for an endless duration.
Justin Martyr 1.172

We know from Isaiah that the members of those who have transgressed will be consumed by the worm and unquenchable fire, remaining immortal. As a result they become a spectacle for all flesh.
Justin Martyr 1.264,265

We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
Tatian 1.71

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with an endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery.
Clement of Alexandria 2.580
From a fragment in a post-Nicene manuscript

By the sequence of judgment, we say that the wicked will have to spend eternity in endless fire. The Godly and innocent will spend it in a region of bliss.
Tertullian 3.127

We, however, so understand the soul’s immortality as to believe it to be “lost” - not in the sense of destruction - but of punishment, that is, in Gehenna.
Tertullian 3.569

 

[chessman]

As proof of a "better" resource you have quoted AN ADVERTISEMENT for a book being sold by Amazon.

Incorrect. I quoted the author of a Greek grammar text book. One that you recommended. I own the digital version of the book by Duff/Wenham and that’s the way the author and publisher requires it’s digital quotations, legally. You calling a quotation an ADVERTISEMENT doesn’t make it one.

It may be "obvious" to you but you are not the "last word" of Biblical interpretation. (neither am I. That's why I consult experts.)

You quoted Thayer’s interpretation who happened to think destroy (in this case) doesn’t literally mean to destroy but rather the word means; “to devote or give over to eternal misery”. If the Greek word apolesai
has a definition of “to devote or give over to eternal misery” can you provide a single translation of Matt 10:28 (or any other verse) where the word is translated “give over to eternal misery”?

it is important to use the original words written by those who spoke them fluently in the culture in which they were uttered rather than in modern English spoken in a culture that is as far distant from that of the NT as possible while remaining on this planet.

Which is why I quoted three Early Church Fathers (who clearly do not extend immortality to the lost as you think the entire church at that time did) specifically because they were far removed from modern culture or modern English or post-apostolic tradition.

And for 2000 years the entire (orthodox) church (not including heretical sects) has taught that the second death was a term used to describe the eternal ONGOING misery of those who rejected God's will for them.

Nope. At least three of the ECF’s believed that the second death was not just the literal death of the body (but not the soul), but in fact the utter destruction of both the body and the soul.

On what basis do you know better than the universal teaching of the Church for the past 2000 years?

You’re simply mistaken in thinking that the entire church universally taught that the lost are raised immortal.

I'm still waiting for the complete citations to verify that what you posted has not been lifted out of context.

I provided the link to the entire book. What I quoted is not taken out of context.

Assuming these three ECF’s clearly quoted statements concerning the topic of the lost’s immortality are lifted ‘out of context’ is like assuming Paul was talking about how all humankind are resurrected in 1 Cor 15. It’s an unsubstantiated assumption. It’s convenient, I suppose, for holding on to one’s current understanding but it’s not much good for gaining any new understanding (education).

Logic does not change with time any more than mathematics changes with time.

Correct. Nor does Paul logically change, mid-sentence, from talking about Christ’s “brothers” into talking about what happens to the lost (non-brothers).

But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.​

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-52&version=LEB

Logically, the corrupt lost cannot inherit incorruptibility and Paul be correct above.

Nor does logic permit Jesus changing from talking about the fear of a very literal death (the first one) of the body only to the metaphorical utter destruction of the body and soul when comparing the two events. The second event is more fearful than the first because it includes the destruction of both body and soul, clearly. Not because the first is literal and the second is metaphorical.

Logic was formally put forth by Aristotle (384–322 BC) and has not changed since.
It is language which changes and it is language on which I believe you are stumbling.

Umm, you’re 1,000’s of years off:

And Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, “From every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.”​

Genesis 2:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:16-17&version=LEB

IF X THEN Y

X = you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

Y = you will surely die

I’m not the one changing the destruction of their body and soul in Hell into something other than the destruction of their body and soul in Hell (misery in Hell). Or stumbling over the plain fact that at least three of the ECFs recognized the lost are not now and never will be immortal (or raised to glory).

Cyril:

for we do nothing without the body.

I thought you believed we are present with the Lord without our bodies???

When we die our body quits working and begins to decay but our soul does not die. It either is present with the Lord (believers) or it remains in "Hades" (not believers.)

I never said that.

Ah but in 1 Cor 15, the group Paul is talking about are raised with glory and power (and incorruptibility):

Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.​

1 Corinthians 15:42-43 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:42-43&version=LEB

Do you extend glory and power to the lost as well (and base it on 1 Cor 15)?

 

[chessman]

(b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery

Why do you think Thayer makes a distinction between the word’s possible meaning based on the humidity and temperature (tropically) of its use?

 

[Razeontherock]

Chessman, you're not promoting annihillationism, right? You're saying the lost do endure ECT (eternal conscious torment)

So isn't the only difference between you and Jim on this issue semantics? All Jim is saying is during the second death their suffering never ceases for eternity. You're also saying that, you're just calling it being destroyed.

 

[chessman]

Chessman, you're not promoting annihillationism, right?

Right. I have a hard time even spelling the word correctly, much less promoting what they believe (if there even is an anhillilation creed of some sort, IDK). I’m not much of an expert on that particular ism. I do promote the destructionism view of the lost, however, of both the body and soul in Hell.

So isn't the only difference between you and Jim on this issue semantics?

No, there’s much more significant Biblical growth and Bible study related differences than simply there being a range of possible translation meanings within this Greek word’s NT Greek-to-English definition (though I’ve yet to see an actual published Bible that has translated apóllymi as “to devote over to eternal misery”. You’d think if the word actually had that meaning/definition you’d see it translated that way in some Bible or two, even in another verse, right?

It’s obvious Thayer is giving us his interpretation (commentary) on this passage, not the word’s actual meaning (which is what Lexicons are supposed to do, they’re dictionaries not commentary). I am aware that words have a range of meanings, even that they are used metaphorically sometimes. That’s why I’ve asked for any Bible translation that actually translates the word as misery.

The problem I have with the metaphorical view is quite obvious; Jesus wasn’t asking the disciples to fear not a metaphorical death (the first one) so why switch to a metaphorical view of fearing the second. He meant it quite literally.

It would be like me saying I killed one of my two snapper limit Saturday (and meaning it quite literally). Then saying I destroyed my snappers Monday both of them (and only meaning it metaphorically, like I put two snapper in misery but didn’t really kill them). A metaphorical meaning to the second day’s harvest doesn’t make any logical sense in light of the very literal previous sentence.

We also have more than semantic differences on whether it’s proper for anyone (including oneself) to 1) add to or 2) subtract from the words of the Text in order to attempt to make ones point:

1. After replying to another member with the following:

It appears to be necessary to add to God's word for it to say that.
All Paul says is: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
There's nothing there about "physical death" and "spiritual death."

He then goes on to do just that (adds to what Paul says) with:

ALL of mankind will be raised immortal (can't physically die again) and incorruptible (the body will not deteriorate)
So it was the physical death AND resurrection which brought salvation to all mankind.
1Co 15:51-57

As if capitalizing all in “ALL of mankind” suddenly makes all mankind appear in Paul’s discussion or context. It’s just not there.

And:

everyone will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible as is stated in 1 Cor 15

It’s not mere semantics as to whether 1 Cor 15:51-57 is taking about the “brothers” in Christ’s resurrection (see v 50) versus ALL mankind (everyone, including all corrupt and mortal mankind) i.e. non-brothers. It’s literally in the Text yet snipped out by some. That’s not proper hermeneutics.

But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility.​

1 Corinthians 15:50 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50&version=LEB

Corrupt/mortal mankind (those not His brothers, those not born again through the Word) do not inherit incorruptibility, is what’s Biblical as taught by Jesus, Paul and Peter. And at least three ECFs. Corruption inheriting incorruptibility cannot happen and Paul also be correct in what verse 50 says (you know, the one just prior to where his quote of verse 51-57 begins).

Human’s (at least those born through Adam’s and Eve’s sin fallen seed) must be born again (from above this second time) to be able to inherit immortality through Christ. It’s just like Peter taught:

Having purified your souls [see a brother’s soul is pure, and incorruptible but not so for the lost soul] by your obedience to the truth for sincere brotherly love, love one another fervently from the heart, because you have been born again, not from perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.​

1 Peter 1:22-23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:22-23&version=LEB

Which is my overall point WRT the OP.
What would the outcome might have been if Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit given to him by Eve? Evidently neither Adam nor Eve was very obedient to the truth. They still needed (even prior to their fall) to eat from the Tree of Life.

2. And we differ on whether it’s proper to subtract from the Text. I don’t think it’s proper hermeneutics. Both Paul and Peter teach that the saved are raised immortal AND glorified. In the very passage cited, they are said to be raised in glory. Does that sound like ALL mankind to you? So if Paul means ALL mankind are raised immortal here, then they are also raised in His glory and power, if that’s what he meant. Snipping that part out is poor hermeneutics.

who through him are believing in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.​

1 Peter 1:21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:21&version=LEB

So the difference is about adding “ALL of mankind” to Paul’s message in 1 Cor yet subtracting His glory and power from them. Way more than simple semantics or Thayer’s commentary.