What's so bad about Hell? It sure beats the alternative...

[Pascal's Wager]

If you're not a Christian, what's so bad about Hell? It sure beats the alternative if you DON'T absolutely adore Jesus, right?

What got me thinking about this is I saw a video on Youtube called "A Letter from Hell"

[youtube:bvwi1ywa]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyaC3CpJA7A[/youtube:bvwi1ywa]

In it, a 'friend' writes another 'friend' a letter after he has died and went to Hell and tells him how mad he is for not telling him about Jesus.

It ends with the expected "wish you were here", line...meant to induce shame and guilt in those who don't share their faith in Christ with those they know.

I started imagining what this poor soul would have thought if God had changed His mind and let him into Heaven, anyway...

I mean: this guy would have been miserable! Think about it--most people who are worldly have no desire to worship Jesus day and night (this is a very big on my list of things to do). They CERTAINLY don't want to be around people who love Jesus (ever heard them use the term 'Jesus Freak'...?). Being surrounded by God's presence is not something they're going to want to experience (ever see them at church? No. Why not? Because they don't want to!)...and on and on and on.

I won't even get into the Angels and all the embarrassment that will ensue each and every time they open their mouth or make a suggestion ("Hey! Anyone here want to go get some drugs and go get loaded? We'll pick up some prostitutes on the way!")

Feh.

Moreover, I'm a little put off by the terribly difficult questions that arise by the suggestion that God will be sending people to Hell because someone neglected to share Christ with them. A crack addled father would be more responsible than that version of God ("Well, even thought I'm God of the Universe, you weren't told about Jesus by this guy over here, so...off you go!).

I have more thoughts on this, but first I want to hear from others.

Thoughts? Comments?

~Pascal

 

[Vic C.]

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Fembot]

AAAAWWW Poor Josh. I like sharing my faith. But some people, man, they aren't listening. They don't want to, like you said. Then waaaah. Why is this happening to me?!
I don't know how to get through to some people. I'm not Jehovah witness, so pushiness is not my style.

 

[lucasdwi]

Moreover, I'm a little put off by the terribly difficult questions that arise by the suggestion that God will be sending people to Hell because someone neglected to share Christ with them. A crack addled father would be more responsible than that version of God ("Well, even thought I'm God of the Universe, you weren't told about Jesus by this guy over here, so...off you go!).

How would you answer the following:
1. Does the person who has never heard of Jesus Christ or never met anyone who had still go to Hell? Even though he was never given the chance to accept Christ.
2. Why is it that righteous atheists go to Hell and suffer for eternity when sinful immoral people who accept Jesus Christ can go to heaven?

 

[Pascal's Wager]

AAAAWWW Poor Josh. I like sharing my faith. But some people, man, they aren't listening. They don't want to, like you said. Then waaaah. Why is this happening to me?!
I don't know how to get through to some people. I'm not Jehovah witness, so pushiness is not my style.

Girl, I've found it to be much more productive to pray for those people and then, if no improvement happens, to get other people praying for them, too (like at a weekly prayer meeting).

Nothing beats the Spirit of God.

Stone. cold. nothing. :naughty

There is nothing like defeating the enemy in the power and strength of the Lord.

Nothing.



~Pascal

 

[Pascal's Wager]

Moreover, I'm a little put off by the terribly difficult questions that arise by the suggestion that God will be sending people to Hell because someone neglected to share Christ with them. A crack addled father would be more responsible than that version of God ("Well, even thought I'm God of the Universe, you weren't told about Jesus by this guy over here, so...off you go!).

How would you answer the following:
1. Does the person who has never heard of Jesus Christ or never met anyone who had still go to Hell? Even though he was never given the chance to accept Christ.
2. Why is it that righteous atheists go to Hell and suffer for eternity when sinful immoral people who accept Jesus Christ can go to heaven?

Luscaswi~

How many righteous atheists do you know who have gone to Hell and are suffering for eternity (by making this statement, you are actually accusing God of being unfair, right? Be honest...)...?

And if you DON'T know any righteous atheists who have gone to Hell and are suffering for eternity, then I have to say to you: Go and learn what this means: 'assuming facts not in evidence'.

~Pascal

 

[Fembot]

Lucas:Why is it that righteous atheists go to Hell and suffer for eternity when sinful immoral people who accept Jesus Christ can go to heaven?

Because Christ died for our sins. No one is free of sin. But accepting Christ as our Savior and doing good works is what prevents condemnation. I don't think someone that continues to disobey God's laws and sins immensely will make it through the gates just because they have faith in Christ alone?
Because when we sin continually the devil gains hold, causing us to slip further-perhaps even forgetting our faith-willful rejection based on sin.



Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7



But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,†without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:14-17

 

[Pascal's Wager]

I don't think someone that continues to disobey God's laws and sins immensely will make it through the gates just because they have faith in Christ alone?

Ahhhhh...thank you for bringing this up, Fembot.

If you find someone who is disobeying God's laws, they are NOT going to be happy in Heaven, anyways!

What are "God's Laws" all about, anyways?

Are they for our benefit or His?

I say that they are for OUR benefit: they show us how to interact successfully with each other here on earth..and prepare us for the next dimension, too!

Heaven isn't for a weekend or a month-long vacation: it's forever.

F-o-r-e-v-e-r.

People who find themselves there had better be comfortable there.

If not, then you're in for a loooooooong wait.

 

[lucasdwi]

How many righteous atheists do you know who have gone to Hell and are suffering for eternity (by making this statement, you are actually accusing God of being unfair, right? Be honest...)...?

First things first; it is impossible for anyone to know who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell, I could rephrase the question to you and say 'How many righteous atheists do you know that went to heaven?' Even though it is impossible for us to say where people specifically go when they die the Bible explicitly says: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
and when asked how to get into heaven,
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.
These verses make it clear, to me at least, that one must accept Jesus Christ to get to heaven. When an atheist dies, it is very hard to believe that they would accept Jesus Christ and thusly go to Hell regardless of what they did in life.
Secondly, why must God be fair, can we not question? He did things in the Bible that I would consider unfair, e.g. "The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation." Numbers 14:18 (how is punishing the third and fourth generations fair?).

 

[lucasdwi]

If you find someone who is disobeying God's laws, they are NOT going to be happy in Heaven, anyways!

How do you know this? Do you know anyone in Heaven that is unhappy because they disobeyed God's laws, or are you assuming facts not in evidence?

Just to be clear, what exactly do you mean by God's laws, the Ten Commandments?

 

[Pascal's Wager]

If you find someone who is disobeying God's laws, they are NOT going to be happy in Heaven, anyways!

How do you know this? Do you know anyone in Heaven that is unhappy because they disobeyed God's laws, or are you assuming facts not in evidence?

Just to be clear, what exactly do you mean by God's laws, the Ten Commandments?

I consider Paul to be a reliable eye-witness as he visited Heaven: "...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17)

Q.E.D.

 

[Pascal's Wager]

How many righteous atheists do you know who have gone to Hell and are suffering for eternity (by making this statement, you are actually accusing God of being unfair, right? Be honest...)...?

First things first; it is impossible for anyone to know who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell, I could rephrase the question to you and say 'How many righteous atheists do you know that went to heaven?'

Do you consider the Lord, God of Heaven and earth to be a fair Person, lucas?

???

 

[Pascal's Wager]

Let me throw a little more 'fuel on the fire' by saying this:

"God would be a cruel Person if HE DID make sinners go to Heaven instead of sending them to Hell. A cruel, demented Person, at that."

~Pascal

 

[lucasdwi]

I consider Paul to be a reliable eye-witness as he visited Heaven: "...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17)

I guess you missed my point. My point is not that there are unhappy people in heaven, although I do not think that Lucifer was very happy in heaven, my point is that someone could have disobeyed God's laws and still be happy as Paul says they are. What I was getting at was that how can you be so sure that someone who broke God's laws is unhappy in Heaven, which as you stated is impossible due to Paul's account of Heaven.

Do you consider the Lord, God of Heaven and earth to be a fair Person, lucas?

I would say that God has done a lot of things that I would consider unfair. For example, does he treat everyone fairly, equally, when he sends those who where brought up believing in something contradictory to Christianity, even if they never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ, and they don't believe in Jesus Christ to Hell, but those who grew up in a Christian home and believe in Jesus Christ go to heaven. This to me is unfair, but perhaps my version of 'fair' is skewed.

God would be a cruel Person if HE DID make sinners go to Heaven instead of sending them to Hell. A cruel, demented Person, at that.

But they can! As long as they accept Jesus Christ as their savior they can go to heaven. So do you now label God as being a "cruel , demented Person"?
Romans
10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, Thou shalt be saved. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
That last one is important, whosoever includes sinners.

 

[follower of Christ]

Let me throw a little more 'fuel on the fire' by saying this:

"God would be a cruel Person if HE DID make sinners go to Heaven instead of sending them to Hell. A cruel, demented Person, at that."

~Pascal

And you can rest assured He will not force anyone to be there who doesnt want to be...

Nevertheless the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those that are His"...
(2 Timothy 2:19 EMTV)

the man in hell doesnt need to blame anyone but himself.
God will not let even one perish whom He KNOWs will love and obey Him.
He knows those who are His from the foundation of the world. He knows who will love and follow Him and who will reject.

 

[lucasdwi]

And you can rest assured He will not force anyone to be there who doesnt want to be...

Are you really proposing that everyone that goes to Hell wants to? Who wants to go to Hell?

He knows who will love and follow Him and who will reject.

Did he know that Lucifer would reject him? If so then why did he create Lucifer?

 

[Pascal's Wager]

God would be a cruel Person if HE DID make sinners go to Heaven instead of sending them to Hell. A cruel, demented Person, at that.

But they can! As long as they accept Jesus Christ as their savior they can go to heaven.

People who have accepted Christ as their Savior have Jesus' righteousness, Lucas.

Jesus was not a sinner, therefore, those who have the righteousness of Christ are no longer sinners, either (this, according to God. If you wish to argue, please discuss it with Him).

Thus, the two do not equate.

Q.E.D.

 

[Pascal's Wager]

God will not let even one perish whom He KNOWs will love and obey Him.

Are you saying that that God will allow those who will not obey Him to perish, follower?

Sounds kind of egotistical, at first blush.

(don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but I want to draw out a reason why this is true. And no: it is not because God is egotistical. Quite the opposite...)

~Pascal

 

[mondar]

Did he know that Lucifer would reject him? If so then why did he create Lucifer?

It is common to question the sovereignty of God, but God is still sovereign.

He created Lucifer for his glory. If no one rebelled, then we would never be able to observe and know Gods justice in action. God raised up Pharaoh "for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17). God could have chosen someone else to be Pharaoh so that he would not have to judge pharaoh. But he chose that particular person to be Pharaoh so that he could judge him, and manifest his justice and power.

God makes some for the purpose of destruction, and some for the purpose of mercy, but all are made for his glory. (Romans 9:22-23)

One might hate the concept of God's right to do with his creation as he pleases. One might rail against it, most hate his sovereignty and come up with all sorts of philosophical objections, but it does not change the fact that God is still sovereign. Where were we when he laid the foundations of the earth (Job).

 

[lucasdwi]

People who have accepted Christ as their Savior have Jesus' righteousness, Lucas.

Jesus was not a sinner, therefore, those who have the righteousness of Christ are no longer sinners

Sinners will still be accepted into heaven, they may be forgiven but they still did what they did and there is no going back. Therefore, even though no longer labeled as sinners, it is possible for someone who committed a sin to be in Heaven.

Are you saying that that God will allow those who will not obey Him to perish, follower?

Sounds kind of egotistical, at first blush.

That is exactly what is sounds like. In fact there is much evidence for this as well, Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity, Lot's wife, and look at Romans 1:18, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness". God does allow those who disobey or do not believe in himself/herself/itself to perish.

He created Lucifer for his glory. If no one rebelled, then we would never be able to observe and know Gods justice in action.

God needed for us to see his glory? Why would we need to observe, being all powerful could he not let everyone know of his glory without having to destroy a heavenly rebellion or torture a pharaoh?