What's so bad about Hell? It sure beats the alternative...

[Benoni]

[quote="Pascal's Wager":3e76q1dv]Let me throw a little more 'fuel on the fire' by saying this:

"God would be a cruel Person if HE DID make sinners go to Heaven instead of sending them to Hell. A cruel, demented Person, at that."

~Pascal

And you can rest assured He will not force anyone to be there who doesnt want to be...

Nevertheless the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those that are His"...
(2 Timothy 2:19 EMTV)

the man in hell doesnt need to blame anyone but himself.
God will not let even one perish whom He KNOWs will love and obey Him.
He knows those who are His from the foundation of the world. He knows who will love and follow Him and who will reject.[/quote:3e76q1dv]

Do me a favor take your Concordance and look up the word "perish" in the Greek and you will find the following interesting information:

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

Strong's NT:9999 inserted word (x);

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.

 

[Free]

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.

That's interesting since every Greek source I look up has "perish", apollumi, in the text.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=622&version=kjv

 

[Paidion]

Jesus was not a sinner, therefore, those who have the righteousness of Christ are no longer sinners, either

So Jesus died in order that we may have positional righteousness rather than actual righteousness? Nothing in the scripture suggests such a thing (though this idea is read into some scriptures).

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. I John 3:7-9 ESV

 

[mondar]

He created Lucifer for his glory. If no one rebelled, then we would never be able to observe and know Gods justice in action.

God needed for us to see his glory? Why would we need to observe, being all powerful could he not let everyone know of his glory without having to destroy a heavenly rebellion or torture a pharaoh?

I hope I am not parsing your words to closely. I cringe at you saying God "needed" us to see his glory. I would certainly disagree with that statement. It would be better expressed that God chose to manifest his glory.

I also cringe at your word "torture." Of course that is exactly what you want from your readers. It is merely an emotional argument in which you misrepresent Pharaoh as an innocent victum of Gods "torture." That would be sad misinformation by using emotional wording. Pharaoh was warned 10 times. He ordered the destruction of Jewish infants. He was persecuting Jewish people by enslaving them. In other words, Pharaoh was guilty of mass murder, and genocide. The fact that God punished this maniacal, evil, deranged ruler was merely justice, not "torture." Please represent the situation correctly.

When you say that God could let everyone know of his glory without punishing the guilty, this is misleading. Yes, God had glory in eternity past. To manifest that glory he did not need to create anyone. The other members of the trinity were glorious enough. Yet there is a difference between that Glory and the demonstration of all his glorious attributes in creation. There is a difference between knowing God because we know of his potential, and knowing God because we see him in action. They are two different glories. Of course Pharaoh and other rebels would prefer not to see God's justice. They want to rail against God with no consequences. Pharaoh is probably still cursing God and thinking he had the right to enslave and exterminate the Jewish people.

Its all in the Bible. I notice you dont want to argue with the texts.

 

[Pascal's Wager]

Jesus was not a sinner, therefore, those who have the righteousness of Christ are no longer sinners, either

So Jesus died in order that we may have positional righteousness rather than actual righteousness? Nothing in the scripture suggests such a thing (though this idea is read into some scriptures).

I'm not getting the distinction between the two, Paidion.

Can you please explain the difference between positional righteousness and actual righteousness?

Thanks. :D

~Pascal

 

[Benoni]

This was a direct quote, a cut and paste from Strong's Concordance using PC Bible. What more can I say; I did not give an opinion; I cut and pasted. You want my opinion here it is:

“I am not talking about the Greek word perish, I agree that is what the Greek means but the problem is according to Strong’s this word was inserted in by the translators in verse 15 and 16 of John 3. So how an the word mean perish in this text if it is not in the Greek�

So what is your point?


In fact the word "whosoever" should be translated "all" for it comes from the Greek word "pas" which is translated all the vast majority of times.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)



In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been Altered or corrupted, they are left out from the New Version.

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.

That's interesting since every Greek source I look up has "perish", apollumi, in the text.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=622&version=kjv

 

[Benoni]

Sorry about all theset double post getting use to the forum

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry about all theset double post getting use to the forum

I cleaned them up. I'm also going to clean up the thread, as I don't like the direction it took.

Sometimes the post may take some time to submit. This is a server/software issue and will be addressed soon. Just be patient and try not to submit more than once. :yes

 

[Vic C.]

All clean.

All reasonable opinions are welcome. Those with unorthodox beliefs will be challenged by those who adhere to a more traditional set of beliefs. Expect it and traditionalists, expect to be challenged too.

What won't be tolerated are direct personal attacks and judgment calls to the point of questioning someone's "Christianity". Also, direct attacks against Christianity itself is not tolerated. Thsis should not be new to seasoned members, but some of you are new here so it bears repeating.

Thanks.

 

[Benoni]

Sorry about all theset double post getting use to the forum

I cleaned them up. I'm also going to clean up the thread, as I don't like the direction it took.

Sometimes the post may take some time to submit. This is a server/software issue and will be addressed soon. Just be patient and try not to submit more than once. :yes

Thank you very much for allowing debate as well as fixing all my extra post.

 

[Fembot]

Wow, what were we discussing-again?

 

[jasoncran]

How many righteous atheists do you know who have gone to Hell and are suffering for eternity (by making this statement, you are actually accusing God of being unfair, right? Be honest...)...?

First things first; it is impossible for anyone to know who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell, I could rephrase the question to you and say 'How many righteous atheists do you know that went to heaven?' Even though it is impossible for us to say where people specifically go when they die the Bible explicitly says: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
and when asked how to get into heaven,
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.
These verses make it clear, to me at least, that one must accept Jesus Christ to get to heaven. When an atheist dies, it is very hard to believe that they would accept Jesus Christ and thusly go to Hell regardless of what they did in life.
Secondly, why must God be fair, can we not question? He did things in the Bible that I would consider unfair, e.g. "The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation." Numbers 14:18 (how is punishing the third and fourth generations fair?).

that last text u misunderstand that replies to reaping of unrepenting sin and the natural consquenses of sin, ie king david's adultery though god forgave him he planted a seed of sin and had to reap it, see galatians 6 on that( for god is not mocked whatsover a man plants that shall he reap)

if u read in genesis on the curse of serpent and then to adam the tilling of the ground( the hard work) was for adam's sake to remind him of( and us) the need for god. the suffering and the hardships we face are to draw us to jesus.

jason

children often pay for their parents sin ie divorce, aldultery,alcohol, and suchlike

 

[lucasdwi]

that last text u misunderstand

Fair enough, it is within my power to misunderstand a biblical verse. How about this:
(Genesis 4:23-24) "If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold."
Lamech kills a man and claims that since Cain's murderer would be punished sevenfold, whoever murders him will be punished seventy-seven fold. That sounds fair.