When Christ obtained "eternal redemption" He saved everyone who believes from the foundation of the world

[Alfred Persson]

The word perfect doesn’t mean sinless, but complete.


Here is what the Judgement for Christian’s looks like.


“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Here are the two options Christian’s will hear at the Judgement seat of Christ -

1. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

2. Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

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Paul says it this way -​

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For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11​

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• Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

The text puts the judgment of the sheep and goats AT Christ's second coming, not after the millennial kingdom.

The context (Ten Virgins Mt. 25:1-13; "Servants" Mt. 25:14-30) implies the Sheep and Goats are uncommitted members of Christendom, those who went to church but were not converted. Some of them practiced Christianity which indicates they eventually would have become born again Christians. Others proved they were TARES having no emphathy for those needing help. Therefore, "the nations" gathered that day are Christians from all nations. Judgment begins first with the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17).

Nothing about the resurrection of the dead, Great White Throne, appear here because this isn't Judgment Day. Its a day when Christ begins cleansing the earth of all the wicked, including those who call themselves Christian but are not.

 

[Free]

The New American Standard also renders καὶ καθ᾽ ὅσον "And inasmuch". This links what is said about Christ to what is said about mankind in general. "Inasmuch" is causal, Jesus did what He did BECAUSE its appointed men die and are judged.

To me, everyone (not just you) are reading into this a "The Final judgment" when neither words "final" or definite article "the" appear.

Right, but it doesn't really matter either way, as I pointed out. The reality is the same; the end result is the same. One chance in this life, then comes judgement.

Moroever, everyone is violating parsimony. They use "judgment" equivocally to mean a "glorification of believers" and not about salvation but then it is deciding the salvation of others. The context implies this judgment is about salvation, not glorification. It doesn't say "To those who eagerly wait He will appear a second time...for glorification".

Glorification is salvation, as I explained. The NT uses three different words or ideas in speaking of salvation in speaking of salvation as past, present, and future realities. It all begins at justification, continues with sanctification, which all leads to glorification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
…
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (ESV)

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (ESV)

2Co 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, (ESV)

1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. (ESV)

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (ESV)

2Co 4:17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, (ESV)

Many in Christendom (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant [Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists,Reformed, Presbyterian] believe there is a "Particular Judgment" that occurs immediately after death, as it did with the Rich Man in Christ's parable.

After life is done, there is no living it over again a few more times; what awaits each one at death is God’s verdict, either acquittal or condemnation; κρίσις is a vox media.
To say that this pronouncement of judgment comes only at the time of the final judgment at the end of the world contradicts Scripture. No one needs to wait until the last day to know God’s verdict; he receives it at the instant of death. Death also at once places his soul into either heaven or hell; the verdict is executed at once. To think of anything else erases the correspondence with Christ’s death, for he does not wait until the last day to learn God’s judgment regarding his sacrifice.-Lenski, R. C. H. (1938). The interpretation of the Epistle to the Hebrews and of the Epistle of James (p. 319). Lutheran Book Concern.

I cite Lenski only for support about this being a "particular judgment". He is wrong to make it a "final judgment", the symbol of the "book of life" shows some rise from Hades into life, and only those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15 compare John 5:28-29).

The context rules out applying this to the final judgment, because after the judgment "those who eagerly wait...He will appear a second time" chronologically positions these "waiters" no later than Christ's Second Coming which is before the Final Judgment that happens AFTER His coming and AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The Judgement happens at the second coming, but when one dies, their position in Christ or lack thereof, determines where they go at death as well as their final destination at the Judgement. It cannot be otherwise, just as those who are not in Christ at his return will have no chance to repent and those who are in him will go to be with him forever.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Right, but it doesn't really matter either way, as I pointed out. The reality is the same; the end result is the same. One chance in this life, then comes judgement.


Glorification is salvation, as I explained. The NT uses three different words or ideas in speaking of salvation in speaking of salvation as past, present, and future realities. It all begins at justification, continues with sanctification, which all leads to glorification.

Even your reply proves these are different phases of salvation and not the same thing. You cannot say:

"It all begins at SALVATION, continues with SALVATION, which all leads to SALVATION."

They are NOT the same thing. In Romans 8:30 Paul reveals the sequence:

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:30 NKJ)

Being "glorified" is an aspect of salvation, but it isn't the same as salvation.

When Hebrews says Christ returns a second time to those who passed the judgment, they are eagerly waiting for Him,its for "salvation". They are glorified when they are changed in a twinkling of any eye and raised from the dead.

Therefore, my objection to the "common interpretation" remains, its guilty of equivocation and is a violation of parsimony.

The "classic interpretaton" you defend forgets an important point, Christians are saved to the uttermost BEFORE they die once, they will NOT come under KRISIS Judgment which is what the judgment in Hebrews 9:27 is:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

That is why "those who eagerly wait for Christ" can't be Christians, they are waiting "for salvation":

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment(2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:27-28 NAS)

Christians eagerly wait for Christ now, while we are living. When we die we go into the presence of the LORD, not to a judgment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I've updated my argument on this, here:

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27 KJV) | End Time News

Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Christ: A Theological Examination of Salvation Beyond Temporal and Geographical Boundaries Abstract This paper explores the theological question of salvation for those who, due to the limitations of time and place, have not had direct access to the message...

endtimenews.net

 

[Vinny37]

I've updated my argument on this, here:

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27 KJV) | End Time News

Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Christ: A Theological Examination of Salvation Beyond Temporal and Geographical Boundaries Abstract This paper explores the theological question of salvation for those who, due to the limitations of time and place, have not had direct access to the message...

endtimenews.net

I suggest updating your sageism language. It is appointed unto many children (not men) and women (not men) once to die. Only a thought.

 

[Free]

Even your reply proves these are different phases of salvation and not the same thing. You cannot say:

"It all begins at SALVATION, continues with SALVATION, which all leads to SALVATION."

They are NOT the same thing. In Romans 8:30 Paul reveals the sequence:

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:30 NKJ)

Being "glorified" is an aspect of salvation, but it isn't the same as salvation.

Which is what I said: "Salvation is spoken of in Scripture as justification (a one-time, completed past event that assures salvation), sanctification (both as a one-time event and ongoing growth in holiness), and glorification (when salvation is final, when believers are with Jesus in heaven)." They're all aspects of the one salvation, spoken of as a past, present and ongoing, and future realities.

https://www.challies.com/articles/salvation-a-past-present-future-reality/

When Hebrews says Christ returns a second time to those who passed the judgment, they are eagerly waiting for Him,its for "salvation". They are glorified when they are changed in a twinkling of any eye and raised from the dead.

The idea that "Christ returns a second time to those who passed the judgement," is explained by "not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." You don't seem to understand that those who pass the "judgement" are believers, those who put their faith in Christ prior to their death. That is the only way to pass the judgement.

To say that those waiting for Christ are unbelievers awaiting salvation, then that means Christ would be returning "to deal with sin," which contradicts the verse. It is believers, those who either died as believers or those who are alive as believers that look eagerly look forward to his return. As I said, it is when our bodies will be changed and made incorruptible. This is when believers will finally be free of sin, temptations, all manner of evil, pain, etc.

Therefore, my objection to the "common interpretation" remains, its guilty of equivocation and is a violation of parsimony.

Where exactly is the equivocation?

The "classic interpretaton" you defend forgets an important point, Christians are saved to the uttermost BEFORE they die once, they will NOT come under KRISIS Judgment which is what the judgment in Hebrews 9:27 is:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

That is why "those who eagerly wait for Christ" can't be Christians, they are waiting "for salvation":

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment(2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:27-28 NAS)

Christians eagerly wait for Christ now, while we are living. When we die we go into the presence of the LORD, not to a judgment.

That is the judgement. When a judge renders a judgement, it might be a favorable judgement, but it might not; it's simply a judgement. When one dies as a believer, the judgement is to be with Christ; when one dies as an unbeliever, the judgement is to be without Christ. It's about finding out one's destiny the moment one dies.

Why do you think "to save" or "for salvation" only refers to justification? Why can't it refer to glorification, especially since it is only believers who could possibly be "those who are eagerly waiting for him"? Hasn't the hope of all believers since the beginning been the return of Christ?

 

[JLB]

Therefore, "the nations" gathered that day are Christians from all nations.

Yes, all standing before His throne are Christians.

The wicked have been removed.

Note the context -

Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11