When Christ obtained "eternal redemption" He saved everyone who believes from the foundation of the world

[Alfred Persson]

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal (166 αἰώνιος aionios) redemption. (Heb. 9:12 NKJ)

166 αἰώνιος aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}
Meaning: 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting.-Strong's

αἰώνιος means "Without beginning or end" as in Romans 16:26 "the eternal God". Just as the "Eternal God" and His effects are not bounded by time, neither is the "Eternal Redemption" Christ obtained for the entire Kosmos bounded by time.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (2889 κόσμος kosmos). (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

That conclusion is proved by the OT saints who are made perfect with us even though they lived and died before His advent:

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. (Heb. 11:39-40 NKJ)

God "had passed over the sins" committed by the OT saints because He demonstrates His righteousness by applying the sacifice of Christ to these believers:

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:21-26 NKJ)

As God is not partial (Rom. 2:11) it follows what He did for the righteous Jews He would do for righteous Gentiles:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. (Acts 10:34-35 NKJ)

Eternal God applies Christ's Eternal Redemption to everyone born from the foundation of the world, who believe the Gospel of Christ. If they don't hear the gospel of Christ in this life, they hear it in the afterlife:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

All in Hades (grave) since the foundation of the world hear Christ's voice, and those who obey it will rise to the resurrection of life. That is why the book of life is opened on Judgment Day, to inscribe the names of those redeemed from dead and hades, because they "did good" after hearing Christ's voice:


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15 NKJ)

Only those "not found written in the Book of life" are cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Dave...]

Hi Alfred.

I don't have a lot of time and only skimmed through your post. I'll try to be more thorough tomorrow. I just wanted you to reconsider your definition of the "whole world." I'll give biblical evidence of what I mean. I think that it means Jew and Gentile. Please consider...



1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Dave

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hi Alfred.

I don't have a lot of time and only skimmed through your post. I'll try to be more thorough tomorrow. I just wanted you to reconsider your definition of the "whole world." I'll give biblical evidence of what I mean. I think that it means Jew and Gentile. Please consider...



1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Dave

You proved "whole world" means the population of the entire world, Jew and Gentile.

But you left out time. Its not Jew and Gentile in the entire world only in the 1st century when the scriptures were written. It applies to those not yet existing, in the future. By what law of logic then, can we not permit it go backward in time from the foundation of the world:

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8 NKJ)

Its implicit names were written in the Book of life at the foundation of the world because the Lamb (in God's timelessness) was slain at that time, and His "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) therefore was active "from the foundation of the world".

So even if I concede to limiting "world" to the world's population, it does not affect its transcendence.

To illustrate, Abraham was saved by the New Covenant even though the Law intervened between him and Christ's advent:

16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. (Gal. 3:16-19 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The timelessness of Christ's "Eternal Redemption" also follows from the appearance of Melchizedek, who in analogy is like God the Son, having "neither beginning of days nor end of life":

1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated "king of righteousness," and then also king of Salem, meaning "king of peace,"
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. (Heb. 7:1-3 NKJ)

Without "beginning of days or end of life" can be understood as "from the foundation of the world onward forever", which is consistent with Christ's "Eternal Redemption" being superior to that given under Mosaic Law, it isn't limited by time and place.

The LORD has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." (Ps. 110:4 NKJ)

The "timelessness" of Christ's "Eternal Redemption" and its universal availablility to "the whole kosmos (1 John 2:2)" implies it is also available to the repentant in the afterlife.

26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 RPTE)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Priesthood of Christ, His offering Sacrifice is not limited by Death:

19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The LORD has sworn And will not relent,`You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek ' "),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.
24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb. 7:19-25 NKJ)

An "unchangeable priesthood" not prevented by death logically includes the dead as "Death" cannot prevent His work of "Eternal Redemption".

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. (Heb. 7:26-27 NKJ)

The implication of His work ascending higher than the heavens is it also is descending lower than the lowest Sheol, to fill all things:

Compare:

9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:9-10 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. (Heb. 7:28 NKJ)

What is the intrinsic weakness of men? They are finite beings in spacetime. How is the Son perfect compared to them? He is infinite God in whom spacetime exists (Col. 1:17).

How then can His "Eternal Redemption" be limited to those dwelling in part of the Kosmos, among the living only and His Voice not be a life giving Spirit to those who hear it in the grave, and respond obediently?

21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
...
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

"Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting(05769 עוֹלָם `owlam) righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. (Dan. 9:24 NKJ)

Righteousness comes from heaven as the gift of God (Ps. 85:11–14; Isa. 51:5–8), rises as a sun upon them that fear God (Mal. 3:20), and is here called everlasting, corresponding to the eternity of the Messianic kingdom (cf. 2:44; 7:18, 27)-
Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 9, pp. 720–721). Hendrickson.

As the gift of God's righteousness arose with Christ from the grave before the Messianic kingdom, it must go back in time prior to its existence, therefore "everlasting" (from ancient time) corresponds to the time "from the foundation of the world to eternally forward.

05769 עוֹלָם `owlam {o-lawm'} or עֹלָם `olam {o-lawm'}
Meaning: 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world 1a) ancient time, long time (of past) 1b) (of future) 1b1) for ever, always 1b2) continuous existence, perpetual 1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity.-Strong's

The New Covenant in Christ's blood (the blood of God having infinite value for redemption) is sufficient to reconcile for all inquity from the foundation of the world, and permit God to bestow His righteousness on all the OT saints who died under the Old Covenant and before.

 

[Vinny37]

...

Although I flinch at talk of any eternal god, and suspect that the lamb was only slain in the C1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rv.13:8&version=NET ), I fully hold what John Sanders called universally accessible salvation—he defined that as from Year One (No Other Name: 1994).

 

[Alfred Persson]

Although I flinch at talk of any eternal god, and suspect that the lamb was only slain in the C1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rv.13:8&version=NET ), I fully hold what John Sanders called universally accessible salvation—he defined that as from Year One (No Other Name: 1994).

According to the inclusivist view," the Father reaches out to the unevangelized through both the Son and the Spirit via
general revelationtion, conscience and human culture. God does not leave himself without witness to any people. Salvation for the unevangelized is made possible only by the redemptive work of Jesus, but God applies that work even to those who are ignorant of the atonement. God does this if people respond in trusting faith to the revelation they have. In other words, unevangelized persons may be saved on the basis of Christ's work if they respond in faith to the God who created them.-John Sanders, What About Those Who Have Never Heard?: Three Views on the Destiny of the Unevangelized (p. 36). Kindle Edition.

My view is "Exclusivism", only faith in the name of Jesus saves, not "in the name of righteousness" or "in the name of ignorance":

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

While that is the position of those who deny the unevangelized will be saved, its mine also.

Unlike others, I accept the Bible's teaching the Dead hear the Gospel of Christ and at that time they can put faith in Him and be saved:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

What is the fate of those born before His time, or in places where Christ remained unknown for centuries after His advent? Where is their opportunity for salvation in Jesus? Does this apply to family and friends who died unsaved? Is the Gospel of Christ Good-News for them?

The Bible reveals universal opportunity for salvation exclusively in Jesus spans both this life and the afterlife. The timeless sacrifice of “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8) was “offered once” “at the end of the ages” so all born “since the foundation of the world could have their sin “put away…by the sacrifice of himself” (Heb. 9:26).

Just as Christ died once so His sacrifice is universally available to all, it is appointed men die once and then “a judgment” (Heb. 9:27). The gospel of Christ is preached “also to the dead” so there is no misunderstanding what it says. This includes all who never heard it while alive, then the “judgment” decides whether Christ’s sacrifice could be applied to pay the penalty for sinner’s sin. A repentant attitude could certainly affect this judgment as is true in any legal process. Jesus said all who “[obediently] hear” His voice in the grave will come forth unto “the resurrection of life” (John 5:24-25, 28-29). The apostle Peter says the Gospel of Christ is preached “also to the dead that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit” (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ). Moreover, just before this Peter implies the “answer of a good conscience” the “spirits in prison gave to Christ’s preaching who “formerly were disobedient” to Noah’s preaching, reminded him of how the church is saved and the antitype of Baptism (1 Pet. 3:18-22).

After the appointed “judgment” decides if Christ’s sacrifice “to bear the sins of many” applies to them they “eagerly wait for Him” when “He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation” (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).

24 For Christ hasn’t entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 RPTE)

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Evidence of Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus “God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death.” (Ps. 68:20) Christ alone is the door to salvation. But what about those who lived before His time, or in places where His message was...

endtimenews.net

 

[Free]

Eternal God applies Christ's Eternal Redemption to everyone born from the foundation of the world, who believe the Gospel of Christ. If they don't hear the gospel of Christ in this life, they hear it in the afterlife:

If those who haven’t heard the gospel in this life are given a chance after death, the Bible doesn’t say. It is completely silent on such an idea. But, it does say that all men are without excuse (Rom. 1:20) and that after death comes judgement, not a second chance (Heb. 9:27). One should not go beyond the Bible and teach that it says something it doesn’t.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If those who haven’t heard the gospel in this life are given a chance after death, the Bible doesn’t say. It is completely silent on such an idea. But, it does say that all men are without excuse (Rom. 1:20) and that after death comes judgement, not a second chance (Heb. 9:27). One should not go beyond the Bible and teach that it says something it doesn’t.

We are without excuse but that doesn't require God exterminate the entire human race. He did send Jesus to save us, did He not?

However, you cite the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 to mean the "condemnation." If that were correct, why does "inasmuch" connect this to the saving sacrifice of Christ in verse 26?

26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 RPTE)

And why would Christ appear a second time to "the condemned" "for salvation" in verse 28?

 

[Vinny37]

According to the inclusivist view," the Father reaches out to the unevangelized through both the Son and the Spirit via
general revelationtion, conscience and human culture. God does not leave himself without witness to any people. Salvation for the unevangelized is made possible only by the redemptive work of Jesus, but God applies that work even to those who are ignorant of the atonement. God does this if people respond in trusting faith to the revelation they have. In other words, unevangelized persons may be saved on the basis of Christ's work if they respond in faith to the God who created them.-John Sanders, What About Those Who Have Never Heard?: Three Views on the Destiny of the Unevangelized (p. 36). Kindle Edition.

My view is "Exclusivism", only faith in the name of Jesus saves, not "in the name of righteousness" or "in the name of ignorance":

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

While that is the position of those who deny the unevangelized will be saved, its mine also.

Unlike others, I accept the Bible's teaching the Dead hear the Gospel of Christ and at that time they can put faith in Him and be saved:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

What is the fate of those born before His time, or in places where Christ remained unknown for centuries after His advent? Where is their opportunity for salvation in Jesus? Does this apply to family and friends who died unsaved? Is the Gospel of Christ Good-News for them?

The Bible reveals universal opportunity for salvation exclusively in Jesus spans both this life and the afterlife. The timeless sacrifice of “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8) was “offered once” “at the end of the ages” so all born “since the foundation of the world could have their sin “put away…by the sacrifice of himself” (Heb. 9:26).

Just as Christ died once so His sacrifice is universally available to all, it is appointed men die once and then “a judgment” (Heb. 9:27). The gospel of Christ is preached “also to the dead” so there is no misunderstanding what it says. This includes all who never heard it while alive, then the “judgment” decides whether Christ’s sacrifice could be applied to pay the penalty for sinner’s sin. A repentant attitude could certainly affect this judgment as is true in any legal process. Jesus said all who “[obediently] hear” His voice in the grave will come forth unto “the resurrection of life” (John 5:24-25, 28-29). The apostle Peter says the Gospel of Christ is preached “also to the dead that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit” (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ). Moreover, just before this Peter implies the “answer of a good conscience” the “spirits in prison gave to Christ’s preaching who “formerly were disobedient” to Noah’s preaching, reminded him of how the church is saved and the antitype of Baptism (1 Pet. 3:18-22).

After the appointed “judgment” decides if Christ’s sacrifice “to bear the sins of many” applies to them they “eagerly wait for Him” when “He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation” (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).

24 For Christ hasn’t entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 RPTE)

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Evidence of Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus “God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death.” (Ps. 68:20) Christ alone is the door to salvation. But what about those who lived before His time, or in places where His message was...

endtimenews.net

My own view in inexclusivism, one pillar being the wide range of meaning in the term sōtēria. Ie, Christian salvation is the exclusive here & now steak on the plate, only served through Christian evangelism; ultimate salvation is the inclusive beyond death pie in the sky, only served to any human beings over time who have truly desired deity.

I’d disagree with Sanders apropos “the god who created them” (I remove for clarity the false capital which hides the hidden polytheism), but his No Other Name is a remarkable book for collating the data, but its inclusivism did leave it vulnerable for Don Carson to attack from an exclusivism.

As for 1 Pt.4:6, rejecting Clement of Alexandria, Augustine refused “to entertain the thought that the gospel was once preached, or is even to this hour being preached, in hell…as if a Church had been established there as well as on earth” (Sanders 55). Wayne Grudem said that if it taught a chance after death, it would be biblically unique and seemingly contradict Lk.16:19-31 and Heb.9:27. He opted for the NIV’s “the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead”, with no mention of Christ preaching (PS: 1 Pt.3:19 is about proclaiming victory to demonic spirits, not about preaching). Not shall be, or is being, but was preached to those who had since died. (q.v. Grudem’s Systematic Theology, 1994:592). In some depth Grudem scotched any Descent into Hell idea. As Calvin saw, Peter taught in this text that though Christians die they continue in salvation (Karen Jobes’ 1 Pt. (BECNT), 2005:271). And Jobes suggested that it was a misreading of the Apostles’ Creed “that gave rise to the theory of postmortem conversion in 4:6” (272).

 

[Free]

We are without excuse but that doesn't require God exterminate the entire human race. He did send Jesus to save us, did He not?

Of course he did, but what does exterminating the entire human race have to do with being without excuse?

However, you cite the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 to mean the "condemnation."

Not necessarily. Judgement means exactly what it means--to be judged; "an opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong" (Thayer's). That means one is judged at death based on whether or not they put their faith in Christ. One's final destination is determined at death, which generally only occurs once.

If that were correct, why does "inasmuch" connect this to the saving sacrifice of Christ in verse 26?

26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 RPTE)

And why would Christ appear a second time to "the condemned" "for salvation" in verse 28?

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

This is a pretty clear passage, so I'm not sure how you don't understand what is plainly stated. The "inasmuch as" (there should be an "And" there; never heard of the RPTE) or "And just as" in verse 27 connects to the "so Christ" in verse 28--"just as it is appointed for man to die once . . . so Christ, having been offered once." The writer is comparing man's dying once to Jesus's one sacrifice. It is the "once" in verse 27 that connects to verse 26, but more so to "once" in verse 28.

Verse 28 repeats some of the thought in verse 26--"he has appeared once for all . . . to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself;" "so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many"--and also goes further--"will appear a second time, not to deal with sin."

The line of argument is straightforward. Jesus didn't come to "offer himself repeatedly . . . But . . . he has appeared once . . . to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." However, he will also come again, "not to deal with sin," since he already dealt with it, "but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him," which can only refer to believers. In other words, he came once to die for our sins and will come again to save believers. That is the finality of salvation, glorification.

Verse 27 clearly states that judgement comes after death, whether it is speaking of one's immediate location after death--with Christ or apart from Christ--which also reveals the final destination, or whether it is speaking of the final judgement when Jesus returns. It is likely both since one leads to the other.

I don't know why you would ask 'And why would Christ appear a second time to "the condemned" "for salvation" in verse 28?,' as no such idea is presented in the passage. Where do you see "condemned" mentioned? Why would you leave out what the verse plainly says, "to save those who are eagerly waiting for him"? The implication is that because after death comes judgement, that when Christ comes to save believers, that unbelievers will not be saved. If Christ comes to 'appear a second time to "the condemned" "for salvation",' then that means he is coming again to deal with sin, which contradicts what the verse says.

The whole point is that we have one chance, while alive, to put our faith in Christ, because after that comes judgement. Everything in this passage goes against your position.

 

[Alfred Persson]

My own view in inexclusivism, one pillar being the wide range of meaning in the term sōtēria. Ie, Christian salvation is the exclusive here & now steak on the plate, only served through Christian evangelism; ultimate salvation is the inclusive beyond death pie in the sky, only served to any human beings over time who have truly desired deity.

I’d disagree with Sanders apropos “the god who created them” (I remove for clarity the false capital which hides the hidden polytheism), but his No Other Name is a remarkable book for collating the data, but its inclusivism did leave it vulnerable for Don Carson to attack from an exclusivism.

As for 1 Pt.4:6, rejecting Clement of Alexandria, Augustine refused “to entertain the thought that the gospel was once preached, or is even to this hour being preached, in hell…as if a Church had been established there as well as on earth” (Sanders 55). Wayne Grudem said that if it taught a chance after death, it would be biblically unique and seemingly contradict Lk.16:19-31 and Heb.9:27. He opted for the NIV’s “the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead”, with no mention of Christ preaching (PS: 1 Pt.3:19 is about proclaiming victory to demonic spirits, not about preaching). Not shall be, or is being, but was preached to those who had since died. (q.v. Grudem’s Systematic Theology, 1994:592). In some depth Grudem scotched any Descent into Hell idea. As Calvin saw, Peter taught in this text that though Christians die they continue in salvation (Karen Jobes’ 1 Pt. (BECNT), 2005:271). And Jobes suggested that it was a misreading of the Apostles’ Creed “that gave rise to the theory of postmortem conversion in 4:6” (272).

Hidden polytheism in "G". Explain that.

As for 1 Pet 4:6 Clement of Alexandria spend his retirement with the Jewish Bishop of Jerusalem. If his view were rejected by Christians there, we have no record of that.

As for Luke 16:19-31, in vs. 26 Abraham says "those who want to pass from here to you are not able" because of a "great gulf". Full Stop. If the Rich Man were wicked, why would any of the Redeemed WANT to enter hell and console the Rich Man? That would be rebellion against a Judgment by God, if indeed he were condemned. That seriously contradicts the assumption he is irredeemably wicked. Then the "fiery torments" are possibly "purging him" as silver and gold are purged of impurities.

The "great gulf" IS crossed when Hades is emptied of all its dead, and the book of life checked to see if any of them have their names in it:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
(Rev. 20:12-13 NKJ)

As for 1 Pet 3:19, the "spirits in prison" gave the "answer of a good conscience" towards God in reponse to Christ's preaching. How do I know? The entire event reminded Peter of how the church responded to Christ's preaching symbolized by Baptism.

My view is based on scripture, not the Apostles Creed. If you click the #Hastag Letter you will see my commentary on the Bible reference:

A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

 

[Alfred Persson]

Of course he did, but what does exterminating the entire human race have to do with being without excuse?


Not necessarily. Judgement means exactly what it means--to be judged; "an opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong" (Thayer's). That means one is judged at death based on whether or not they put their faith in Christ. One's final destination is determined at death, which generally only occurs once.


Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

This is a pretty clear passage, so I'm not sure how you don't understand what is plainly stated. The "inasmuch as" (there should be an "And" there; never heard of the RPTE) or "And just as" in verse 27 connects to the "so Christ" in verse 28--"just as it is appointed for man to die once . . . so Christ, having been offered once." The writer is comparing man's dying once to Jesus's one sacrifice. It is the "once" in verse 27 that connects to verse 26, but more so to "once" in verse 28.

Verse 28 repeats some of the thought in verse 26--"he has appeared once for all . . . to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself;" "so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many"--and also goes further--"will appear a second time, not to deal with sin."

The line of argument is straightforward. Jesus didn't come to "offer himself repeatedly . . . But . . . he has appeared once . . . to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." However, he will also come again, "not to deal with sin," since he already dealt with it, "but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him," which can only refer to believers. In other words, he came once to die for our sins and will come again to save believers. That is the finality of salvation, glorification.

Verse 27 clearly states that judgement comes after death, whether it is speaking of one's immediate location after death--with Christ or apart from Christ--which also reveals the final destination, or whether it is speaking of the final judgement when Jesus returns. It is likely both since one leads to the other.

RPTE is Greek Orthodox using Byzantine Text. "Inasmuch" is literal so I used it:
STE Hebrews 7:20 Καὶ καθ (Matt. 1:1 STE) STE=Stephanus
STE Hebrews 9:27 καὶ καθ (Heb. 9:27 STE)

But I need a clairification on this one point, then I can address the entire:

How did believers die once and need saving? Why would people be waiting for Christ to appear a second time, for salvation?

Christians are saved to the uttermost while alive. These die once, and then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming "for salvation"?

What am I misunderstanding?

 

[Vinny37]

Hidden polytheism in "G". Explain that.

As for 1 Pet 4:6 Clement of Alexandria spend his retirement with the Jewish Bishop of Jerusalem. If his view were rejected by Christians there, we have no record of that.

As for Luke 16:19-31, in vs. 26 Abraham says "those who want to pass from here to you are not able" because of a "great gulf". Full Stop. If the Rich Man were wicked, why would any of the Redeemed WANT to enter hell and console the Rich Man? That would be rebellion against a Judgment by God, if indeed he were condemned. That seriously contradicts the assumption he is irredeemably wicked. Then the "fiery torments" are possibly "purging him" as silver and gold are purged of impurities.

The "great gulf" IS crossed when Hades is emptied of all its dead, and the book of life checked to see if any of them have their names in it:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
(Rev. 20:12-13 NKJ)

As for 1 Pet 3:19, the "spirits in prison" gave the "answer of a good conscience" towards God in reponse to Christ's preaching. How do I know? The entire event reminded Peter of how the church responded to Christ's preaching symbolized by Baptism.

My view is based on scripture, not the Apostles Creed. If you click the #Hastag Letter you will see my commentary on the Bible reference:

A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

I have cited various works, and it’s a bit like you are asking me to reinvent the wheel. Please go to those sources on the so-called Descent idea, as humanism would have. Grudem 1994 (or update) is a standard work easily accessible, and he gave a lot of cover contra the so-called texts suggesting postmortem evangelism (Sanders also covered the sides well). Jobes is a commentary of high erudition. R T France had taken a similar line, though Don Carson disagreed: Jobes justified France by supplemental data. A good hermeneutic is a backbone for good exegesis.

I’ve not suggested that you’ve directly gotten your POV from the Creed; that POV has many children from the parent-Creed. Inexclusivism sees no need to posit such a way in order to deem God fair in damnation.

I think you misread the bit on Clement of Alexandria. I simply said that on this, Origen had rejected Clement. Do you disagree?

The hidden polytheism bit? Yeah, that’s a hobbyhorse of mine. It gets me that affirmed monotheists still use phrases which seen by the bigger world are obviously polytheistic in structure, an obviousness largely overlooked by traditional Christianity—and beyond. Eg Muslims and Christians contrast their different god (the god of Islam vs the god of Christianity!). Both sides should see (and talk as they see), that if teaching monotheism the other sides can’t have a different god, though it can have a different concept of God. Have I a great big wonderful god? For songs we usually use a capital, which artificially hides the polytheistic phraseology—It must be biblical if it has a capital! Bosh. Hiding behind a capital is misleading talk. To the extent that I have a god (or goddess), I have not God. I do not have a loving god, but I have God who is love, etc. Let’s strip our lingo of the false capital, and reexamine what we are saying. And please don’t proof-text me that Scripture talks polytheistically as if I didn’t know it. My reply would get into the art of Bible translation, in which the CEV has inconsistently shown the way. Start a thread on that and I’ll be happy to dig deeper.

 

[Free]

RPTE is Greek Orthodox using Byzantine Text. "Inasmuch" is literal so I used it:
STE Hebrews 7:20 Καὶ καθ (Matt. 1:1 STE) STE=Stephanus
STE Hebrews 9:27 καὶ καθ (Heb. 9:27 STE)

The issue isn't with "Inasmuch," but there is an "And" at the start of the text, not that it makes much of a difference, I suppose.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9.htm

But I need a clairification on this one point, then I can address the entire:

How did believers die once and need saving? Why would people be waiting for Christ to appear a second time, for salvation?

Christians are saved to the uttermost while alive. These die once, and then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming "for salvation"?

What am I misunderstanding?

You're misunderstanding that there is nothing in this passage that says those who are dead need saving, as though they haven't been justified. First, by definition, those who are eagerly awaiting the return of Jesus are believers; they are eagerly awaiting his return as Saviour. Unbelievers are not eagerly awaiting Christ's return, since they don't believe in him.

Second, again, "to save" such persons is a reference to glorification. Salvation is spoken of in Scripture as justification (a one-time, completed past event that assures salvation), sanctification (both as a one-time event and ongoing growth in holiness), and glorification (when salvation is final, when believers are with Jesus in heaven). When Jesus returns, believers will go to be with him forever, right? That is glorification--the completion and finality of what began with justification and continued with sanctification. It is when our bodies will be changed and made incorruptible. This is when believers will finally be free of sin, temptations, all manner of evil, pain, etc.

Third, the text clearly makes the point that Jesus dealt with sin by his death (and resurrection) and that his return will not be "to deal with sin." That absolutely rules out that he will come to save some. Men die once and then face judgement.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I think you misread the bit on Clement of Alexandria. I simply said that on this, Origen had rejected Clement. Do you disagree?

I have no comment on the "G" theory, I don't understand it.

Origen rejected Clement, but lots of what he said is rejected also. I agree with Clement:

So I think it is demonstrated that God (being good) and the Lord (being powerful) both save with a righteousness and equality that extends to all who turn to God, whether here or elsewhere. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is present. Rather, it is everywhere and is always at work.… For it is not right that those persons [who died before Christ] should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after His coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, EE Eastern), 2.491. Dead, Intermediate State of The. (1998). In D. W. Bercot (Ed.), A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. 192). Hendrickson Publishers.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The issue isn't with "Inasmuch," but there is an "And" at the start of the text, not that it makes much of a difference, I suppose.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9.htm


You're misunderstanding that there is nothing in this passage that says those who are dead need saving, as though they haven't been justified. First, by definition, those who are eagerly awaiting the return of Jesus are believers; they are eagerly awaiting his return as Saviour. Unbelievers are not eagerly awaiting Christ's return, since they don't believe in him.

Second, again, "to save" such persons is a reference to glorification. Salvation is spoken of in Scripture as justification (a one-time, completed past event that assures salvation), sanctification (both as a one-time event and ongoing growth in holiness), and glorification (when salvation is final, when believers are with Jesus in heaven). When Jesus returns, believers will go to be with him forever, right? That is glorification--the completion and finality of what began with justification and continued with sanctification. It is when our bodies will be changed and made incorruptible. This is when believers will finally be free of sin, temptations, all manner of evil, pain, etc.

Third, the text clearly makes the point that Jesus dealt with sin by his death (and resurrection) and that his return will not be "to deal with sin." That absolutely rules out that he will come to save some. Men die once and then face judgement.

The New American Standard also renders καὶ καθ᾽ ὅσον "And inasmuch". This links what is said about Christ to what is said about mankind in general. "Inasmuch" is causal, Jesus did what He did BECAUSE its appointed men die and are judged.

To me, everyone (not just you) are reading into this a "The Final judgment" when neither words "final" or definite article "the" appear.

Moroever, everyone is violating parsimony. They use "judgment" equivocally to mean a "glorification of believers" and not about salvation but then it is deciding the salvation of others. The context implies this judgment is about salvation, not glorification. It doesn't say "To those who eagerly wait He will appear a second time...for glorification".

Many in Christendom (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant [Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists,Reformed, Presbyterian] believe there is a "Particular Judgment" that occurs immediately after death, as it did with the Rich Man in Christ's parable.

After life is done, there is no living it over again a few more times; what awaits each one at death is God’s verdict, either acquittal or condemnation; κρίσις is a vox media.
To say that this pronouncement of judgment comes only at the time of the final judgment at the end of the world contradicts Scripture. No one needs to wait until the last day to know God’s verdict; he receives it at the instant of death. Death also at once places his soul into either heaven or hell; the verdict is executed at once. To think of anything else erases the correspondence with Christ’s death, for he does not wait until the last day to learn God’s judgment regarding his sacrifice.-Lenski, R. C. H. (1938). The interpretation of the Epistle to the Hebrews and of the Epistle of James (p. 319). Lutheran Book Concern.

I cite Lenski only for support about this being a "particular judgment". He is wrong to make it a "final judgment", the symbol of the "book of life" shows some rise from Hades into life, and only those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15 compare John 5:28-29).

The context rules out applying this to the final judgment, because after the judgment "those who eagerly wait...He will appear a second time" chronologically positions these "waiters" no later than Christ's Second Coming which is before the Final Judgment that happens AFTER His coming and AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

 

[JLB]

That conclusion is proved by the OT saints who are made perfect with us even though they lived and died before His advent:

The word perfect doesn’t mean sinless, but complete.

Many in Christendom (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant [Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists,Reformed, Presbyterian] believe there is a "Particular Judgment" that occurs immediately after death, as it did with the Rich Man in Christ's parable.

Here is what the Judgement for Christian’s looks like.


“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Here are the two options Christian’s will hear at the Judgement seat of Christ -

1. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

2. Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

​

Paul says it this way -​

​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11​

​

• Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;