When Do Believers Receive Power?

[LovethroughDove]

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command (John 6:29). And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

The moment you believe exactly who Jesus claims he is, you receive the Holy Spirit. That means you understand what it means that he is Lord and that he really did raise from the dead and ascend to heaven.

 

[JohnDB]

When the word "power" in John1:12 is used...its meant more to be limited authority. John has grammar reasons for using the particular word he does...poetry as well.
But those are other topics.

 

[By Grace]

When the word "power" in John1:12 is used...its meant more to be limited authority. John has grammar reasons for using the particular word he does...poetry as well.
But those are other topics.

I am NOT attempting to be snarky, OK?
Instead, I am attempting to give you some information for your edification.

12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ

Nestle, E., Nestle, E., Aland, B., Aland, K., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (1993). The Greek New Testament (27th ed., Jn 1:12). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Jn 1:12). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

δίδωμιa; δόσιςa, εως f: to give an object, usually implying value—‘to give, giving.’
δίδωμιa: κλάσας ἔδωκεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς τοὺς ἄρτους ‘he broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples’ Mt 14:19.
δόσιςa: οὐδεμία μοι ἐκκλησία ἐκοινώνησεν εἰς λόγον δόσεως καὶ λήμψεως εἰ μὴ ὑμεῖς μόνοι ‘not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only’ Php 4:15.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 565). New York: United Bible Societies.

ἐξουσίαf, ας f: the power to do something, with or without an added implication of authority—‘power.’ ἡ γὰρ ἐξουσία τῶν ἵππων ἐν τῷ στόματι αὐτῶν ἐστιν καὶ ἐν ταῖς οὐραῖς αὐτῶν ‘the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails’ Re 9:19; ἔχειν ἐξουσίαν ἐκβάλλειν τὰ δαιμόνια ‘to have the power to drive out demons’ Mk 3:15. It is also possible to understand ἐξουσία in Mk 3:15 as meaning ‘authority,’ and in a number of instances it is difficult to determine whether the focus is upon the power which an individual has or a granted authority to do something which naturally implies strength or power (see 37.35–37.38)

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 680). New York: United Bible Societies.

What is in focus here is the privilege that the believer has to be adopted and be called a "Son of God". There are many who take this and make it "power to do stuff" and I am attempting to let you see that is not the case.

Here is the explanation of the Greek, using English grammar terms:
The phrase beginning with "to become..." is a prepositional phrase that is acting like an adverb because it modifies the verb (aorist, active) meaning past tense translated "power" (KJV) or "right" (ESV)

The Greek is what the text says as the Apostle wrote it, and the color coded stuff are the definitions of the corresponding words translated from the Greek, and the intermediate-level Greek lexicon meaning better than Strong's.

Hope that helps, and that you are not put off by this.

 

[JohnDB]

I am NOT attempting to be snarky, OK?
Instead, I am attempting to give you some information for your edification.

12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ

Nestle, E., Nestle, E., Aland, B., Aland, K., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (1993). The Greek New Testament (27th ed., Jn 1:12). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Jn 1:12). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

δίδωμιa; δόσιςa, εως f: to give an object, usually implying value—‘to give, giving.’
δίδωμιa: κλάσας ἔδωκεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς τοὺς ἄρτους ‘he broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples’ Mt 14:19.
δόσιςa: οὐδεμία μοι ἐκκλησία ἐκοινώνησεν εἰς λόγον δόσεως καὶ λήμψεως εἰ μὴ ὑμεῖς μόνοι ‘not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only’ Php 4:15.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 565). New York: United Bible Societies.

ἐξουσίαf, ας f: the power to do something, with or without an added implication of authority—‘power.’ ἡ γὰρ ἐξουσία τῶν ἵππων ἐν τῷ στόματι αὐτῶν ἐστιν καὶ ἐν ταῖς οὐραῖς αὐτῶν ‘the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails’ Re 9:19; ἔχειν ἐξουσίαν ἐκβάλλειν τὰ δαιμόνια ‘to have the power to drive out demons’ Mk 3:15. It is also possible to understand ἐξουσία in Mk 3:15 as meaning ‘authority,’ and in a number of instances it is difficult to determine whether the focus is upon the power which an individual has or a granted authority to do something which naturally implies strength or power (see 37.35–37.38)

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 680). New York: United Bible Societies.

What is in focus here is the privilege that the believer has to be adopted and be called a "Son of God". There are many who take this and make it "power to do stuff" and I am attempting to let you see that is not the case.

Here is the explanation of the Greek, using English grammar terms:
The phrase beginning with "to become..." is a prepositional phrase that is acting like an adverb because it modifies the verb (aorist, active) meaning past tense translated "power" (KJV) or "right" (ESV)

The Greek is what the text says as the Apostle wrote it, and the color coded stuff are the definitions of the corresponding words translated from the Greek, and the intermediate-level Greek lexicon meaning better than Strong's.

Hope that helps, and that you are not put off by this.

Not put off at all.
I was trying to answer simplistically without getting into the mechanics which you provided that give no wiggle room for what the OP was hinting at.

Sometimes I am guilty of overly simplifying things...I admit that quite freely. Maybe this is one. Dunno.

Either way the truth is that this is a very important verse to me. I have studied it inside out.

 

[JohnDB]

But now that I can post a little bit more gooder...
This is the first time in a series of points and themes in John's gospel about how the "average man" can become a "bene Blohim" or Son of God...
Even in the end of the book the reference is often lost.
The number of fish Peter took in when Jesus told him to cast his nets on the other side...its the number value for bene Elohim. or Gematria value...There are no wasted or extraneous words in the Bible.

 

[ezra]

When do believer receive power?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When we are born again.

Can we receive the Holy Spirit with power "again" with evidence of tongues?

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

2 Corinthians 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

So any believer that testify of feeling the Holy Spirit coming over them again, filling them, and giving them tongues which never comes with interpretation, THAT WAS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT !!! 2

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 14:
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

Tongues were never meant to serve as a sign for believers, but it certainly being used as a sign for those seeking to receive the "spirit again" which is apostasy and a falling away from the faith.

Believers need to return to their first love, shun vain & profane babblings and pray normally so that they know what they had prayed for to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.....21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

with evidence of tongues?
is a gift many speak tongues in the flesh. yes we get the power the moment we are saved

 

[By Grace]

with evidence of tongues?
is a gift many speak tongues in the flesh. yes we get the power the moment we are saved

Please refer to this post of mine"

I am NOT attempting to be snarky, OK?
Instead, I am attempting to give you some information for your edification................

The point I made in looking at the words of the original language was to indicate that this sort of interpretation regarding the usage of glossolalia, or "speaking in tongues" is not permitted because there is nothing in the words that give any indication of what Paul discusses in his Epistles.

No, I am not "debating" what many refer to as "the gift of tongues". But it must be kept in mind that the PRIMARY FOCUS of the passage is the right that we have to be called the "Children of God". The Apostle John was referring to the doctrine we call "adoption".

Part of the difficulties in the translation of the KJV is that they used the same English "power" to translate two different Greek words. Most properly, the Greek word transliterated as "dunamos" is the word that we often use for TNT, or dynamite. That is not the word that the Apostle chose to use.

ἐξουσίαf, ας f: the power to do something, with or without an added implication of authority—‘power

The Greek word above here is transliterated as "exousiat", and as you can see that it has a different usage than the word for "dynamite". Indeed the difference is subtle, and you are not the only one to interpolate the one meaning into the text,

Please understand, that I am neither pro "tongues" nor am I against "tongues". More to the point at hand, I will not "debate" tongues here, nor any other place. All I am doing is referring to one Scripture verse that is often misused.

 

[By Grace]

for bene Elohim. or Gematria value...There are no wasted or extraneous words in the Bible.

Are you referring to the idea of "Biblical Numerology"?

 

[JohnDB]

Are you referring to the idea of "Biblical Numerology"?

Bullinger has a book on numerology and where it is very interesting I'm not one to subscribe to all his beliefs. But I do find it handy for solving quickly some basic arithmetic when Hebrew letters are numbers. And in the before mentioned instance that is what John was referring to. The sum of the Hebrew letters for the words bene Elohim (when used as numbers) is the number of fish Peter caught in his net.
" …and not a one of them was lost"

 

[JohnDB]

Bullinger has a book on numerology and where it is very interesting I'm not one to subscribe to all his beliefs. But I do find it handy for solving quickly some basic arithmetic when Hebrew letters are numbers. And in the before mentioned instance that is what John was referring to. The sum of the Hebrew letters for the words bene Elohim (when used as numbers) is the number of fish Peter caught in his net.
" …and not a one of them was lost"

But most importantly that one of the themes in John's Gospel is that we become children of God when we believe in Jesus.