When does a believer receive eternal life?

[Hermit]

But in all of this, I can see no percentages of my soul being saved and that leaves me thinking that the soul isw saved or it is lost, 100% of it.

Galatians 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Nobody while on earth is perfect, we all have touches of some of these things. To not be led by the Spirit at any one time is open ground for satan to tempt us. To have no guilt (the motivation to be sorry and change) we will end up self-will run riot. OSAS seems to promote compromise _ by no need for guilt or change, that it's okay to be a sinner because you are already saved 100%. The other train of thought is, what's wrong with feeling guilt, pleading sorrow, and being motivated to change. It cannot be worse than not to do so.

Personally, I like the idea of having my slate clean. If you took all the acts of flesh away, there is total serenity (no fear or tension). So whenever I feel fear or tension, regardless of how subtle, I know that a part of me is relying on the flesh and not on the Spirit. It's then time to let go and let God. As a Christian, we strive to live by the Spirit, and not be the flesh, even after baptism. Whatever we harbor in our belief system and in our heart, which is not of Spirit, deserves to be weeded out, and placed in the fire, before harvesting the good fruit in us.

 

[gr8grace3]

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Salvation may be secure, but how much of the soul is saved depends on how much we follow Christ's (way, truth and life).

You will have to clarify this one. Never heard of "how much of the soul is saved" before.
John 10:28. And His sheep will NEVER perish.

Are you or are you not a sheep right now? ....The Spirit testifies to our spirit that we ARE the Children of God.

If we say we are not His sheep at this time as believers......we are OUT of His will for our lives.

If we say that we are His sheep at this time and may possibly perish.........we are OUT of His will for our lives.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved, even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The word Day is Judgement Day.

The word 'day' is evaluation day in these verses. It is the Bema seat of Christ, and believers WORKS are evaluated.......good or bad.

The GWT is judgement day for unbelievers and it goes well for NONE of them.

 

[JLB]

Totally. All of them, past, present, and future.

Please post the scripture that says we don't need to confess our sins to be forgiven.

This is where your doctrine crosses the line into heresy and teaches people to that they can live in sin and don't need to confess them or repent because "all their future sin that they will commit is already automatically forgiven".


If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

The condition for being forgiven is to
"Confess our sins"....

The result of meeting that condition is being forgiven and cleansed.


JLB

 

[Edward]

Excellent. That would be #1.


Oh, I see. Please direct me to the verse or passage that is clear about losing salvation/eternal life if one turns their back on God.

But I don't see any "as long as..." condition in what Jesus promises those He gives eternal life, which you acknowledge is "in the beginning, when we are saved". He said that those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

So, your view is different than what Jesus promised. is that not clear?

No it's not clear Brother. I don't believe in OSAS. There are many warnings in scripture about this. Here's one, do you need more than this?

Hebrews 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.../

 

[gr8grace3]

There are only 3 possibilities regarding when a believer receives eternal life:
1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity

Some argue that 1 Peter 1:9 indicates that eternal life is received at the end of their life. "for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls."

If salvation and eternal life are synonymous, and most would agree that they are, then we can't really view anyone as saved during their life on earth, if "end of your faith" is synonymous with "end of your life". But it should be quite obvious that the 2 phrases are not equivalent at all.

So Arminians cannot view themselves as saved during their life. And one cannot lose what one does not possess. So the argument about losing salvation becomes irrelevant.

Are there any verses that indicate that eternal life is given during some point after initially believing in Christ? No, there are not. So we can eliminate #2 and #3 straight off.

So, that leaves #1, when they first believe.

So, what does the Bible say about it?

John 3:15 - that everyone who believes (present tense) may have (subjunctive) eternal life in him.

This verse indicates from the subjunctive that not everyone will believe, but of those who do, they will have eternal life in them.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes (present tense) in him shall not perish but HAVE (present tense) eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me HAS (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes (present tense) HAS (present tense) eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given (aorist tense) us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe (present tense) in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE (present tense) eternal life.

What is clear from these verses is that those who believe possess eternal life. 1 John 5:11 clearly indicates that eternal life is something already given, by the aorist tense, which is generally a past completed action.

Finally, Jesus tells us that it is He who gives eternal life: John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, it's clear from Scripture that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one initially believes. Not some time after that.

Therefore, one is eternally saved WHEN one believes in Christ.

New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

 

[gr8grace3]

No it's not clear Brother. I don't believe in OSAS. There are many warnings in scripture about this. Here's one, do you need more than this?

Hebrews 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.../

These verses ARE eternal security Edward. If we fall away, and believe that we need to be saved again or maintain salvation...................we put Christ to open shame. He died ONCE for us He saved us ONCE when we believed.

Anyone who believes salvation can be lost is putting Christ to OPEN SHAME. And the consequence is CLOSE to being cursed. CLOSE, but not cursed. They have ALL of their works burned, and are saved as if through fire. Because believers will NEVER perish. John 10:28.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Edward]

FreeGrace,
Here's some more;
Deuteronomy 8:19, Deuteronomy 29:18-21, 1 John 5:21, Matthew 5: 29-30, John 5:14, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 2 Peter 3:17, Matthew 10:32-33, Titus 1:10-11...

There's more Brother. How many more do you want? This is where the fear and trembling comes in. Does the scripture not say that on the day that many will say to Him, Lord Lord did we not cast out devils in your name? and He will say, I never knew you. SOme of these have accepted the Lord and said the sinners prayer! What, they will be saved too? Huh-uh...

There's even verses which speak of those having their name blotted out of the book of life. Are those lies?

Shall I post some of those for you?
Be careful Brother!

 

[Edward]

These verses ARE eternal security Edward. If we fall away, and believe that we need to be saved again or maintain salvation...................we put Christ to open shame. He died ONCE for us He saved us ONCE when we believed.

Anyone who believes salvation can be lost is putting Christ to OPEN SHAME. And the consequence is CLOSE to being cursed. CLOSE, but not cursed. They have ALL of their works burned, and are saved as if through fire. Because believers will NEVER perish. John 10:28.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So who are the people who will say Lord Lord...and He will say, I never knew you...??

 

[ezra]

I don't even know what Armenian doctrine is nor do I want to know. All I know is the doctrine of Christ and that's good enough for me.

your better off

These verses ARE eternal security Edward. If we fall away, and believe that we need to be saved again or maintain salvation...................we put Christ to open shame. He died ONCE for us He saved us ONCE when we believed.

Anyone who believes salvation can be lost is putting Christ to OPEN SHAME. And the consequence is CLOSE to being cursed. CLOSE, but not cursed. They have ALL of their works burned, and are saved as if through fire. Because believers will NEVER perish. John 10:28.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

ya all are going to ignore this ........... but the debate in here can or you can not lose salvation has never been solved or ever will it on either side . when we get saved there is responsibility for use after we are saved just a few with out posting the full scripture . we are to walk in the light as he is in the light we are to depart from iniquity we are to confess our sins and we are to repent . peter writes our salvation is kept by the power of God .. our salvation is far more secure than what many think... the Bible says that we may know. the Bible also tells us not to use grace as a reason to sin what shall we sin Romans 6:15 . if i was a gambling man i would dare say many have done something that the other might consider a sin to lose salvation. there is no place in the Bible that says we can live how we want and still be saved.. in fact if a person continued in sin with out ever getting it took care of by the good Lord . i would question was they ever really saved....Jesus said he came to give abundant life.. lets focus on our walk. lol i am sure this will go in one ear and out the other as the old expression says

 

[Edward]

Revelation 3:3-5
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.../

Am I misunderstanding this? It seems plain.

 

[ezra]

Am I misunderstanding this? It seems plain.

what do you feel it is saying?

 

[Hermit]

You will have to clarify this one. Never heard of "how much of the soul is saved" before....

Galatians 6:7-9 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I am not saying that you are too, but we do see things differently based on our collective beliefs.

Hi Hermit, The statement above is confusing to me. We are each one individuals, and we (in our hearts) do things to honor the Lord of our own volition. But we can only come to and walk in the Lord one way. And all the conclusive words of Salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification) and into justification are gathered (grace, the righteousness of God, propitiation by sacrifice, faith, imputation and reconciliation) All the work of God in Jesus the Christ, is not to be seen differently. The born again believer may not understand this work of salvation, but their simple faith in Christ is all that is required. There can be no DIFFERENT collective beliefs in the work of God on behalf of man to be saved. self will of man or mans effort to be saved is left out of it. There is one body, one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called. One Lord one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in you all (Eph. 4:4-6). But the diversity is in gifts (Eph. 4:7-16) I see collective beliefs as among the tares in the church. There can be no collective beliefs in being saved. I say this for those who think they can believe differently to be saved.

 

[Hermit]

Hi Hermit, The statement above is confusing to me. We are each one individuals, and we (in our hearts) do things to honor the Lord of our own volition. But we can only come to and walk in the Lord one way. And all the conclusive words of Salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification) and into justification are gathered (grace, the righteousness of God, propitiation by sacrifice, faith, imputation and reconciliation) All the work of God in Jesus the Christ, is not to be seen differently. The born again believer may not understand this work of salvation, but their simple faith in Christ is all that is required. There can be no DIFFERENT collective beliefs in the work of God on behalf of man to be saved. self will of man or mans effort to be saved is left out of it. There is one body, one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called. One Lord one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in you all (Eph. 4:4-6). But the diversity is in gifts (Eph. 4:7-16) I see collective beliefs as among the tares in the church. There can be no collective beliefs in being saved. I say this for those who think they can believe differently to be saved.

Not regarding collective beliefs as a whole, people do have different beliefs about what Scripture is about. That is why we have so many denominations etc. Most of the time it is a misunderstanding, or a different degree of interpretive depth, which causes these differences. This thread is an example of this.

In regards of collective beliefs, this includes all our beliefs regardless if they are true or not, or Scripture of not. The collective beliefs in a person creates the persons personality. It is like the ingredients of a cake, ever cake, even when followed by the same recipe, is not exactly the same. Many beliefs will collude with other beliefs. If one belief causes fear in a person, and it colludes with other beliefs normally without fear, can cause reason to have fear it never had before.

In regards to being saved, I understand Christian souls are saved. But as in Galatians 6:7-9 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 the scripture suggests that there will be a degree of what is saved, that being of good fruit / Truth in a person.

The common part of us that bridges flesh and Spirit is the mind. As in body-mind-soul. Body-mind collects beliefs about the world. The soul-mind collects beliefs about the kingdom of God. The soul is also effected by the mind's beliefs about the world. That is why there is a strong emphases on dying to the flesh (body-mind) part, so the soul only has the beliefs of the Spirit.

When we die, the soul will be examined, like the tares in the parable of the weeds among good plants. There is no provision for worldly (untrue) beliefs in the kingdom of God. They must be banished. So, as in collective beliefs, how much of the soul is effected by what is True will be worth saving. By living the way, the truth, and life in Christ (a way of truthful living) will save more soul for Christ than not, don't you think.

This is just my honest opinion. I am not trying to convert anybody, I am just being honest in how I discern the Scriptures and the Loving Spirit in my heart.

 

[JLB]

New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Yes we see those who desire to have their ears tickled with what you want to hear.

Living in sin and immorality, practicing the works of the flesh, and thinking their is no need to confess your sin or repent because you have embraced the doctrine of OSAS.


12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

For if you live according to the flesh you will die;


JLB

 

[chessman]

But as in Galatians 6:7-9 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 the scripture suggests that there will be a degree of what is saved, that being of good fruit / Truth in a person.

Gal 6:7-9 is about Gal 6:6-10 which is about doing good to all people (not partial salvation), especially sharing in all good things (like your time/effort/talents/money) toward the one who teaches the household of faith (the church leader/teacher). Gal 6:7-9 doesn't even mention salvation, much less the lose of it or a portion of it.

Do Good to All People
Gal 6:6-10 (LEB) Now the one who is taught the word must share in all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked, for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap, 8 because the one who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 And let us not grow weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who belong to the household of faith.​

1 Cor 3 is about Divisiveness and Immaturity in all those who are 'in Christ' as compared to Christ Himself. And yes, the eventual purification of God's Temple via God's purifying power (not lose of salvation as v 15 makes crystal clear).

1 Corinthians 3 (LEB)
Divisiveness and Immaturity
1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual people, but as to fleshly people, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you were not yet able to eat it...
11 For no one is able to lay another foundation than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[Paul is saying; I don't care how mature you 'think you are', you are NOT the foundation of your salvation. Jesus Christ is! Thank God.]
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire​

 

[FreeGrace]

In reference to how many sins that Jesus Christ died for, I said:
"Totally. All of them, past, present, and future."

Please post the scripture that says we don't need to confess our sins to be forgiven.

Why? I never said such a thing. 1 John 1:9 says IF we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to FORGIVE our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If Jesus Christ didn't die for all sins, past, present and future, please post the verses that indicate such an idea.

This is where your doctrine crosses the line into heresy and teaches people to that they can live in sin and don't need to confess them or repent because "all their future sin that they will commit is already automatically forgiven".

Your opinion continues to be totally UNINFORMED as to my beliefs, which I presume is because of the failure to actually read what I post.

I've been very vocal about God's discipline towards His unfaithful and disobedient children and have quoted verses from Heb 12 many times.

And those who read my posts know that I haven't EVER taught that believers can "live in sin" and don't need to confess their sins.

Instead, believers MUST confess their sins in order to restore fellowship, but I know that the doctrine of fellowship isn't in your theological bag.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

I've quoted that verse much more than you.

The condition for being forgiven is to
"Confess our sins"....

The result of meeting that condition is being forgiven and cleansed.
JLB

Hm. Does this mean every time a person confesses their sins, they are saved again? Is that what is meant by "cleansed"?

If so, that would be heresy.

 

[chessman]

believers MUST confess their sins in order to restore fellowship

It's also useful in the area of prevention of weakness, sickness and even death of the body.

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the elders of the church and they should pray over him, anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord.​

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous person accomplishes much. ​

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Oh, I see. Please direct me to the verse or passage that is clear about losing salvation/eternal life if one turns their back on God."

No it's not clear Brother.

Exactly. The verses used teach that salvation can be lost is FAR from clear.

But, otoh, eternal security is clearly taught by Jesus Christ Himself. In John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 He taught that whoever believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life. Then, He taught that it is He who gives eternal life in John 10:28. And He followed that by stating that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

So, a question to ponder:
Given what Jesus said in Jn 10:28, can any recipient of eternal life for any reason ever perish? yes or no will suffice.

I don't believe in OSAS.

Then it appears to me that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. This would indicate that your view is that there ARE recipients of eternal life that MAY PERISH.

Is there a difference between NEVER PERISH and MAY PERISH? is this not very clear?

There are many warnings in scripture about this.

None of the meany warnings are about losing salvation, or Jesus lied in John 10:28.

Here's one, do you need more than this?

Hebrews 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.../

This is a great example of how much ASSUMING must be done in order to twist a warning passage to be "about losing salvation".

So, what is being lost in this passage?
v.6 gives us the answer: it is impossible for those believers who have fallen away to be "renewed to repentance".

How is this loss of salvation? The context for this passage was about Hebrew believers who were either returning to animal sacrifice or thinking about doing so. So the writer's point is that those who do this cannot be "renewed to repentance".

iow, repentance means "change the mind". If they return to animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT Jesus Christ died for all of their sins, they will not repent (change their minds) about it.

 

[FreeGrace]

These verses ARE eternal security Edward. If we fall away, and believe that we need to be saved again or maintain salvation...................we put Christ to open shame. He died ONCE for us He saved us ONCE when we believed.