When does a believer receive eternal life?

[FreeGrace]

Please quote the scripture that teaches we are saved from physical death.
JLB

This question is irrelevant to my posts, but the rapture generation will not experience physical death. Is a verse necessary for that fact?

But, speaking about any Scripture that teaching something, where are the verses that actually tell us that salvation can be lost, or that any recipient of eternal life (meaning a saved person) can actually perish?

I wish you a lot of luck on that one, especially since Jesus was clear that those He gives eternal life (recipients of eternal life) shall NEVER PERISH.

FACT.OF.LIFE.

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:
"Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

If Christ didn't die and pay for ALL sins, Heb 10:14 cannot be true about being "made perfect FOREVER". Not possible."

No mention of future sins.

How can one be "made perfect FOREVER" if future sins aren't covered. [/QUOTE]

Please post the scripture that says Jesus paid for our future sins.

I did. There is no need to ignore it. Please explain what FOREVER means in Heb 10:14.

And why ignore all the verses in Hebrews about "once for all" in reference to Christ's sacrifice for sins?

The only way to be forgiven of your sins is to confess you sins.

For believers to restore fellowship in 1 John 1. However, placing one's faith in Christ for salvation results in forgiveness for all of them, per Acts 10:43 along with all the "once for all" verses in Hebrews.

Those who live in sin, and continually break His commandments can not claim anymore they have eternal life, which he is knowing Him.

This is failure to properly discern the Word of truth. I explained what the verse referred to.

He is faithful to cleanse us so as to continue in relationship.

Just count the times John mentioned "fellowship" in 1 John 1. 4 times. He didn't mention "relationship" even once.

Sin separates us from God.

That's our condition at birth. It's called spiritual death and we're headed for the lake of fire. Which is why Christ came and died for all of our sins, to pay the sin debt. Those who believe in Christ and His sacrifice are regenerated and born again, which is called eternal life.

Jesus Christ came to reconcile us to God through the cross.

Yes, that's what He did. And those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Those Christian's who practice a life of sin, can no longer claim they "know Him".

While that's true, ANY believer who rejects ANYTHING Jesus taught can no longer claim that they "know Him".


JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from the sins we have committed.

There is no mention of future sins.

All the "once for all" verses in Hebrews clearly indicates future sins.

All sin indicates all the sin we have committed.
Unless you actually commit a sin then you have not sinned and so there is nothing to forgive.
JLB

Please provide the teaching that Jesus only died for sins before salvation, since that seems to be your view. Although it's difficult to know for sure, since questions are generally not answered.

 

[FreeGrace]

What reason is there to teach God's people they can worship other gods, or become homosexuals or renounce Jesus Christ or depart from the faith or take the mark of the beast and still be saved, if not to tickle their ears?
JLB

What reason is there to post such rubbish? I've never, and no one else has either, taught what you continue to claim, imply, or insinuate.

The height of dishonesty.

 

[chessman]

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from the sins we have committed.

The same Jesus who's blood cleanses us form "all sin" knows our future sins just as much as our past sins.

1 John 3 (LEB) 3 See what sort of love the Father has given to us: that we should be called children of God, and we are! Because of this the world does not know us: because it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever he is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.​

All sin indicates all the sin we have committed.

Maybe to you. To me, "all sin" indicates "all sin".

Isaiah 46:3-4 (LEB)
3 “Listen to me, house of Jacob,
and all the remnant of the house of Israel
who have been carried from the belly,
who have been carried from the womb:
4 Even to your old age I am he;
even to your advanced age I myself will support you.
I myself have made you,
and I myself will carry you,
and I myself will support you,
and I will save you.
​

There is no mention of future sins.

Umm, there is no mention of past sins either. What's mentioned is cleansing of "all sin".

God knows your wanderings in all your past, present and future days:

Psalm 139:3 (LEB) You search out my wandering and my lying down,
and are acquainted with all my ways.​

Psalm 139:16 (NASB)
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.​

Unless you actually commit a sin then you have not sinned and so there is nothing to forgive.

Okay. But the verse talks about actual cleansing of sin, not actual cleansing of 'not sin'. Oh, and "all sin"!

To "know Him" is to; "know that whenever he is revealed we will be like him."

When you/I confess sins "to one another", they do not catch the Lord Jesus Christ by surprise. He already knew them, way before confessing them to another man.

Jesus knows your past present and future (including your sins). At least my Jesus does.

John 4:10 (LEB) 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”​

John 4:17-18 (LEB) 17 The woman answered and said to him, “I do not have a husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have said rightly, ‘I do not have a husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you have now is not your husband; this you have said truthfully!”​

 

[Runner]

Is it of no relevance to anyone on this thread that none of the early church fathers believed OSAS? None. There are a hundred reasonably scholarly sites on the Internet that make this point. It is beyond dispute. Even some Calivinistic scholars recognize that the doctrine is traceable to Calvin's misreading of Augustine. It is fine to sling Bible verses back and forth, but the reality is that no one - no one - in the first 1500 years of Christianity saw the OSAS doctrine in the verses that the OSAS folks now seem to find so clear as to be beyond dispute. Does this not concern anyone?

It also occurs to me that the "OSAS verses" still make sense if OSNAS is true, but the OSNAS verses do not make sense if OSAS is true. The OSNAS folks recognize that salvation must begin with an act of belief and repentance, so the "OSAS verses" are not foreign to OSNAS theology. But the reverse is not true - the verses indicating we must continue in belief (and the many early Christian writings to the same effect) are difficult to fit into an OSAS theology.

Even if I had spent my entire life in Campus Crusade and the Southern Baptist Church and thus were emotionally and theologically committed to OSAS, I think I'd be a little more humble about my position. Those who don't accept OSAS and persist in their OSNAS "delusion" are lost because they don't hold the OSAS position - really? This frankly strikes me as what Hermit was suggesting in his post #171: "When you are insane, you don't know you are insane, because you are insane."

 

[JLB]

The same Jesus who's blood cleanses us form "all sin" knows our future sins just as much as our past sins.

1 John 3 (LEB) 3 See what sort of love the Father has given to us: that we should be called children of God, and we are! Because of this the world does not know us: because it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever he is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.​

Maybe to you. To me, "all sin" indicates "all sin".

Isaiah 46:3-4 (LEB)
3 “Listen to me, house of Jacob,
and all the remnant of the house of Israel
who have been carried from the belly,
who have been carried from the womb:
4 Even to your old age I am he;
even to your advanced age I myself will support you.
I myself have made you,
and I myself will carry you,
and I myself will support you,
and I will save you.
​

Umm, there is no mention of past sins either. What's mentioned is cleansing of "all sin".

God knows your wanderings in all your past, present and future days:

Psalm 139:3 (LEB) You search out my wandering and my lying down,
and are acquainted with all my ways.​

Psalm 139:16 (NASB)
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.​

Okay. But the verse talks about actual cleansing of sin, not actual cleansing of 'not sin'. Oh, and "all sin"!

To "know Him" is to; "know that whenever he is revealed we will be like him."

When you/I confess sins "to one another", they do not catch the Lord Jesus Christ by surprise. He already knew them, way before confessing them to another man.

Jesus knows your past present and future (including your sins). At least my Jesus does.

John 4:10 (LEB) 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”​

John 4:17-18 (LEB) 17 The woman answered and said to him, “I do not have a husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have said rightly, ‘I do not have a husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you have now is not your husband; this you have said truthfully!”​

Please quote the scripture that says Jesus paid the price for future sin.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What reason is there to post such rubbish? I've never, and no one else has either, taught what you continue to claim, imply, or insinuate.

The height of dishonesty.

If a born again Christian no longer believes in Jesus Christ, and converts to Islam, are they still saved according to your doctrine?

If a born again Christian becomes a homosexual and dies that way are they still saved according to your doctrine?


JLB

 

[JLB]

All the "once for all" verses in Hebrews clearly indicates future sins.

Post one that says Jesus died for our future sins.

 

[JLB]

Please provide the teaching that Jesus only died for sins before salvation, since that seems to be your view. Although it's difficult to know for sure, since questions are generally not answered.

That's not my view.

Jesus blood will cleanse me of any sin that I confess.

 

[JLB]

I posted this:
"Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

If Christ didn't die and pay for ALL sins, Heb 10:14 cannot be true about being "made perfect FOREVER". Not possible."

How can one be "made perfect FOREVER" if future sins aren't covered.

I did. There is no need to ignore it. Please explain what FOREVER means in Heb 10:14.

And why ignore all the verses in Hebrews about "once for all" in reference to Christ's sacrifice for sins?


For believers to restore fellowship in 1 John 1. However, placing one's faith in Christ for salvation results in forgiveness for all of them, per Acts 10:43 along with all the "once for all" verses in Hebrews.


This is failure to properly discern the Word of truth. I explained what the verse referred to.


Just count the times John mentioned "fellowship" in 1 John 1. 4 times. He didn't mention "relationship" even once.


That's our condition at birth. It's called spiritual death and we're headed for the lake of fire. Which is why Christ came and died for all of our sins, to pay the sin debt. Those who believe in Christ and His sacrifice are regenerated and born again, which is called eternal life.


Yes, that's what He did. And those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. John 10:28


While that's true, ANY believer who rejects ANYTHING Jesus taught can no longer claim that they "know Him".


JLB[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


Just post the scripture that says Jesus died for our future sins.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is it of no relevance to anyone on this thread that none of the early church fathers believed OSAS? None. There are a hundred reasonably scholarly sites on the Internet that make this point. It is beyond dispute. Even some Calivinistic scholars recognize that the doctrine is traceable to Calvin's misreading of Augustine. It is fine to sling Bible verses back and forth, but the reality is that no one - no one - in the first 1500 years of Christianity saw the OSAS doctrine in the verses that the OSAS folks now seem to find so clear as to be beyond dispute. Does this not concern anyone?

I would like to ask a question, based on what Jesus said in John 10:28
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

OK, the question:
Can any recipient of eternal life ever perish?

It also occurs to me that the "OSAS verses" still make sense if OSNAS is true, but the OSNAS verses do not make sense if OSAS is true.

What occurs to me is that this sentence is nonsensical. OSAS and OSNAS are polar opposites, or diametrically opposed. That means only 1 can be correct. Never both.

So, OSAS cannot make any sense if OSNAS is true. And vice versa.

The OSNAS folks recognize that salvation must begin with an act of belief and repentance, so the "OSAS verses" are not foreign to OSNAS theology. But the reverse is not true - the verses indicating we must continue in belief (and the many early Christian writings to the same effect) are difficult to fit into an OSAS theology.

Please share any verses that base salvation on 'continuing in belief'. Of course Jesus wants all believers to continue in belief. Why wouldn't He. But please share any verse that says we must continue in belief in order to be or stay saved. There aren't any.

 

[JLB]

This question is irrelevant to my posts, but the rapture generation will not experience physical death. Is a verse necessary for that fact?

But, speaking about any Scripture that teaching something, where are the verses that actually tell us that salvation can be lost, or that any recipient of eternal life (meaning a saved person) can actually perish?

I wish you a lot of luck on that one, especially since Jesus was clear that those He gives eternal life (recipients of eternal life) shall NEVER PERISH.

FACT.OF.LIFE.

Here it is again.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who come to be in Him, do so by believing.

Those are are in Him are saved.

Those who are in Him, then removed from Him are lost.

Hence then phrase cast into the fire and burned.

Hence the phrase a sheep who wanders from the truth is lost.

Lost = Sinner who is not reconciled to God.

No amount of twisting can turn the meaning of lost into found or thrown into the fire and burned into "saved".

 

[FreeGrace]

If a born again Christian no longer believes in Jesus Christ, and converts to Islam, are they still saved according to your doctrine?

This question keeps popping up, in spite of the clear words of Jesus, who said: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Can you find any conditions beyond being a recipient of eternal life in order to never perish? I can't. The answer is clear; those who believe possess eternal life and cannot perish. Period.

If a born again Christian becomes a homosexual and dies that way are they still saved according to your doctrine?
JLB

See above for answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

Post one that says Jesus died for our future sins.

You've been answered from Hebrews. Believing what the Bible says is up each one of us.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"Please provide the teaching that Jesus only died for sins before salvation, since that seems to be your view. Although it's difficult to know for sure, since questions are generally not answered."

That's not my view.

Which has been rather difficult to pin down.

Jesus blood will cleanse me of any sin that I confess.

So, what exactly did Jesus die for on the cross?

Please explain Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Esp the red words.

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:
"Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

If Christ didn't die and pay for ALL sins, Heb 10:14 cannot be true about being "made perfect FOREVER". Not possible."

How can one be "made perfect FOREVER" if future sins aren't covered?"

I did.

Did "what", exactly? The question was not answered.

There is no need to ignore it.

They who do it??

Please explain what FOREVER means in Heb 10:14.

Really? It means "without end". A state that lasts with end. Was this why the question wasn't answered; "forever" wasn't understood?

And why ignore all the verses in Hebrews about "once for all" in reference to Christ's sacrifice for sins?

Please tell me, for that's what you've done.

Just post the scripture that says Jesus died for our future sins.

Please proceed to post the Scripture that says Jesus died ONLY for our past sins.

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This is a agricultural metaphor that speaks of having to be in fellowship in order to produce fruit.

Those who are in Him, then removed from Him are lost.

And John 15:6 doesn't teach that. Eph 1:13,14 refutes your misunderstanding of John 15:6.

 

[JLB]

Can any recipient of eternal life ever perish?

John 10:28 is half of a statement, which is the result of meeting the condition of verse 27.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Once the condition is met which will be Judged on the Day of Judgement according to each persons deeds, then a person will receive eternal life or not.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

If John 28 was the only verse in the Bible then you would be all set, but since it's not then your theology lacks reconciliation of all Jesus said.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is a agricultural metaphor that speaks of having to be in fellowship in order to produce fruit.

Tell that to Jesus on the Day of Judgement.

It's scripture.