When does a believer receive eternal life?

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,
Here's some more;
Deuteronomy 8:19, Deuteronomy 29:18-21, 1 John 5:21, Matthew 5: 29-30, John 5:14, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 2 Peter 3:17, Matthew 10:32-33, Titus 1:10-11...

There's more Brother. How many more do you want?

No, there aren't "more". In fact, there aren't ANY. If that were true, then Jesus lied in John 10:28, because He said those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. Are there any conditions to recipients of eternal life for never perishing? No, there are NONE.

The view of loss of salvation puts Christ to an open shame, as Heb 6 very clearly says. No different than sacrificing an animal on an altar for sin forgiveness. Believers have been forgiven once and for all by Christ's sacrifice. Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

This is where the fear and trembling comes in. Does the scripture not say that on the day that many will say to Him, Lord Lord did we not cast out devils in your name? and He will say, I never knew you. SOme of these have accepted the Lord and said the sinners prayer! What, they will be saved too? Huh-uh...

Why should one assume that these are believers? On what basis were they appealing to Jesus for entering the kingdom? Their works.

These are religious unsaved unbelievers. That's why He told them what He did.

There's even verses which speak of those having their name blotted out of the book of life. Are those lies?

Please post the verse that speaks of anyone's who's name has been blotted out. I don't believe you.

Shall I post some of those for you?
Be careful Brother!

Yes, by all means, post the verse about someone's name being blotted out of the book of life.

 

[FreeGrace]

So who are the people who will say Lord Lord...and He will say, I never knew you...??

Unbelievers, who based entrance into the kingdom on their WORKS. No mention of faith at all.

 

[FreeGrace]

Revelation 3:3-5
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.../

Am I misunderstanding this? It seems plain.

Yes. v.5 doesn't say ANYTHING about anyone's name BEING blotted out. The phrase "I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" is a literary device called a litotes.

"Litotes, derived from a Greek word meaning “simple”, is a figure of speech which employs an understatement by using double negatives or, in other words, positive statement is expressed by negating its opposite expressions.

For example, using the expression “not too bad” for “very good” is an understatement as well as a double negative statement that confirms a positive idea by negating the opposite. Similarly, saying “She is not a beauty queen,” means “She is ugly” or saying “I am not as young as I used to be” in order to avoid saying “I am old”. Litotes, therefore, is an intentional use of understatement that renders an ironical effect."
From https://literarydevices.net/litotes/

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes we see those who desire to have their ears tickled with what you want to hear.

Living in sin and immorality, practicing the works of the flesh, and thinking their is no need to confess your sin or repent because you have embraced the doctrine of OSAS.

This is nothing more than a smear technique against a view that opposes your view. Please knock it off. It's totally untrue.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
JLB

It's quite unfortunate for those who are unable to discern between God's discipline of physical death (1 Cor 11:30, 1 John 5:16) and spiritual death, which EVERY human being is born as.

iow, no one will die spiritually during their life on earth. Because they were BORN that way. Which is why they need to be BORN AGAIN.

 

[JLB]

In reference to how many sins that Jesus Christ died for, I said:
"Totally. All of them, past, present, and future."

Just post the scripture that says Jesus Christ paid for your future sins.

In reference to how many sins that Jesus Christ died for, I said:
"Totally. All of them, past, present, and future."

Why? I never said such a thing. 1 John 1:9 says IF we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to FORGIVE our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If Jesus Christ didn't die for all sins, past, present and future, please post the verses that indicate such an idea.


Your opinion continues to be totally UNINFORMED as to my beliefs, which I presume is because of the failure to actually read what I post.

I've been very vocal about God's discipline towards His unfaithful and disobedient children and have quoted verses from Heb 12 many times.

And those who read my posts know that I haven't EVER taught that believers can "live in sin" and don't need to confess their sins.

Instead, believers MUST confess their sins in order to restore fellowship, but I know that the doctrine of fellowship isn't in your theological bag.


I've quoted that verse much more than you.


Hm. Does this mean every time a person confesses their sins, they are saved again? Is that what is meant by "cleansed"?

If so, that would be heresy.

Eternal life is knowing God.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Being joined to Christ, we are one with His Spirit which is the Spirit of Life.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

The Lord loves us dearly, and desires to be with us. He cleansed us, and continues to cleanse us that we may remain in Him, joined to Him and the eternal life that is only found in Him.

Any doctrine that teaches God's people that they can live in sin and defiance against God and still know Him, which is the definition for eternal life life is false.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Breaking His commandments is another way of saying we hate our brothers in Christ.

For if you steal from your brother, you are not loving him, neither do you love him if you covet his wife or commit adultery with his with.

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Spirit filled Christians who hate their brother or sister in Christ because of an offense, does not have eternal life abiding in them.


Now, the burden is on you to show a scripture that says you can hate your brother and still have eternal life abiding in you.


Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

• If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

The condition of "if" is clear, in that we must "hold fast" what we heard in the beginning, to remain connected in Him, or be cast out as a branch.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

We must remain in Him to have the eternal life that is in Him.

We must keep His commandments in order to "know Him" and learn to forgive and not let hate abide in us, that His eternal life would remain in us to the end.




JLB

 

[Edward]

what do you feel it is saying?

Revelation 3:3-5
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.../

Am I misunderstanding this? It seems plain.

That some, after having received the Lord as their savior, stumble back into sin and defile their garments, and somehow think they have not and (thinking they do the work of the Lord) continue in sin without repentance...without fruit...and may be subject to having their names blotted out of the book of life. Those are the ones who will say in the day, Lord Lord, Did I not this and that for you? But will be rejected.

Others who are not diligent in guarding their hearts and making effort to grow spiritually through (grace) studying to show themselves approved, praying without ceasing, supplicating, fasting and communion...change their doctrinal position...which is a turning away from the loyalty to Him who called, God Himself. They believe a perverted gospel which makes them feel comfortable and their ears are tickled in their churches which do not present challenges to them...do not give them the tools they need to mature in the truth and righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a real spiritual battle going on. We can not be pacifists about it, a Christian lifestyle and due diligence is our duty! Why else would be be provided and instructed to put on the full armor of God?!

Clear as mud Brother? Lol. That's where I am today...Lord be with me.

 

[chessman]

Just post the scripture that says Jesus Christ paid for your future sins.

Romans 5:20-21 Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

Where sin increases, grace is present in greater abundance.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. ​

The blood of Jesus (not your flesh) cleanses us from all sin (past, present, future)

 

[Edward]

So, a question to ponder:
Given what Jesus said in Jn 10:28, can any recipient of eternal life for any reason ever perish? yes or no will suffice.

Yes. (Sorry, but I must ask this...) Do you have any fear and trembling?

But, otoh, eternal security is clearly taught by Jesus Christ Himself.

Yes Sir, Brother! For those who abide in Him...!!!

None of the meany warnings are about losing salvation, or Jesus lied in John 10:28.

Again Brother, For those who abide in Him. Of myself I can do nothing, in Christ all things are possible. There is a point where we must relinquish our carnal intellect and simply trust in Him and His Word.

So, what is being lost in this passage?
v.6 gives us the answer: it is impossible for those believers who have fallen away to be "renewed to repentance".

...unless they humble themselves, and ask for forgiveness (His Love covers a multitude of sins and He is willing to forgive all...if we repent and turn back to Him...!!! King David and his life is a wonderful example of this. David has been called a man after God's own heart...wow, and he even commited adultery and murder. (I haven't, does that make me better than David? Oh no!)

Se;f justification, self righteousness, pride, bitterness, anger, they all lead to a falling away...They will hear, I never knew you.

iow, repentance means "change the mind". If they return to animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT Jesus Christ died for all of their sins, they will not repent (change their minds) about it.

Exactly Brother.

Peace and blessings be upon you this day Brother.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"In reference to how many sins that Jesus Christ died for, I said:
"Totally. All of them, past, present, and future.""

Just post the scripture that says Jesus Christ paid for your future sins.

I'm always happy to support my claims with Scripture.
Heb 7:27, 9:12, 26, 28, 10:2, 10, 12.

The "hover feature" on this forum will give you each verse.

Eternal life is knowing God.

It is also a gift from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who gives this gift to whoever believes? yes or no

Any doctrine that teaches God's people that they can live in sin and defiance against God and still know Him, which is the definition for eternal life life is false.

Please give up this total nonsense. No one on this forum has EVER taught such rubbish. Attributing this rubbish to those who believe in eternal security, as taught by Jesus Christ is nothing less than total dishonesty.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Why would anyone assume that hating a brother results in loss of eternal life and then perishing?

John and Jesus were on the SAME PAGE regarding eternal life and when it is given.

Jesus said whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47.
John said those who believe HAVE (posses) eternal life in 1 John 5:13.

And Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life (that makes them recipients of eternal life) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, given what Jesus SAID in John 10:28 about recipients of eternal life, can any recipient of eternal life EVER PERISH?

Since you've never answered this question, I'll just point out that those who believe that salvation can be lost DO BELIEVE THAT a recipient of eternal life CAN PERISH. In total opposition to the Savior's teaching.

On what basis can a person claim to be a believer yet NOT believe what Jesus taught in John 10:28?

Spirit filled Christians who hate their brother or sister in Christ because of an offense, does not have eternal life abiding in them.

Why is it not completely obvious that if that were true, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 is not true. iow, it is a lie.

Now, the burden is on you to show a scripture that says you can hate your brother and still have eternal life abiding in you.

The problem is your misunderstanding of what "abiding" means in the context. It is totally impossible for the verse to mean what you believe it means. Such a view makes Jesus a liar, which I'll NEVER accept.

For some context, let's examine the previous verse, v.14 - We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love abides in death.

To "abide in death" cannot mean or suggest spiritual death, but refers to being out of fellowship due to not loving others.

Where else can one support the view that to "not love" results in loss of eternal life in Scripture? Nowhere is where.

So, v.15 simply follows v.14 about fellowship. In John's epistle, the concept of "abiding" is always that it is a reciprocal relationship, or about fellowship. This is clear from what Jesus said in John 15:4 - "Abide in Me and I will abide in you". This cannot be about salvation, because no person can join himself to Christ for salvation. Salvation is what God does TO the believe, not what the believer does for HIMSELF.

Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

Right. Now, review ch 1 and count the times he uses the word "fellowship". 4 is the answer. And fellowship is the MAIN THEME of John's first epistle. Now how to stay saved, or how to lose salvation.

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Fellowship for those who abide in what they heard from the beginning (when they believed the gospel).

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Loss of fellowship, not salvation.

We must remain in Him to have the eternal life that is in Him.

No one, including the believer himself, can remove himself from God's hand. John 10:28-29.

We must keep His commandments in order to "know Him" and learn to forgive and not let hate abide in us, that His eternal life would remain in us to the end.
JLB

I choose to believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; they shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
Just post the scripture that says Jesus Christ paid for your future sins.

Romans 5:20-21 Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

​

Great verse. I failed to recall another great verse when I answered that question.

Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

If Christ didn't die and pay for ALL sins, Heb 10:14 cannot be true about being "made perfect FOREVER". Not possible.

Where sin increases, grace is present in greater abundance.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. ​

The blood of Jesus (not your flesh) cleanses us from all sin (past, present, future)

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes. (Sorry, but I must ask this...) Do you have any fear and trembling?

I do. But not regarding my salvation. It is guaranteed by God's Word. And I believe EVERYTHING God says.

I said:
"But, otoh, eternal security is clearly taught by Jesus Christ Himself."

Yes Sir, Brother! For those who abide in Him...!!!

You've just moved the goal posts. Jesus didn't add that condition in His statement about recipients of eternal life NEVER PERISHING.

But your comment INCLUDES a condition: "abiding in Him". If that is true, then John 10:28 is NOT true. Are you comfortable with that?

 

[ezra]

That some, after having received the Lord as their savior, stumble back into sin and defile their garments, and somehow think they have not and (thinking they do the work of the Lord) continue in sin without repentance...without fruit...and may be subject to having their names blotted out of the book of life. Those are the ones who will say in the day, Lord Lord, Did I not this and that for you? But will be rejected.

Others who are not diligent in guarding their hearts and making effort to grow spiritually through (grace) studying to show themselves approved, praying without ceasing, supplicating, fasting and communion...change their doctrinal position...which is a turning away from the loyalty to Him who called, God Himself. They believe a perverted gospel which makes them feel comfortable and their ears are tickled in their churches which do not present challenges to them...do not give them the tools they need to mature in the truth and righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a real spiritual battle going on. We can not be pacifists about it, a Christian lifestyle and due diligence is our duty! Why else would be be provided and instructed to put on the full armor of God?!

Clear as mud Brother? Lol. That's where I am today...Lord be with me.

i will be upfront and honest with you. i tried in my post to get everyone to see that this is a brick wall when it comes to eternal security or losing / walking away from your salvation .. for years i have studied both sides of the coin and i am still pondering on it. my self i do lean toward eternal security....BUT not the way the southern and the other Baptist teach it . i am ordained through the general Baptist they believe one can walk away from salvation . i feel this way as Paul wrote work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Others who are not diligent in guarding their hearts and making effort to grow spiritually through (grace) studying to show themselves approved, praying without ceasing, supplicating, fasting and communion...change their doctrinal position...which is a turning away from the loyalty to Him who called, God Himself. They believe a perverted gospel which makes them feel comfortable and their ears are tickled in their churches which do not present challenges to them...do not give them the tools they need to mature in the truth and righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

i have serious doubts these type folks are saved.

There is a real spiritual battle going on. We can not be pacifists about it, a Christian lifestyle and due diligence is our duty! Why else would be be provided and instructed to put on the full armor of God?!

i am in full agreement with you it is our duty paul wrote the weapons of our warfare (strategy ) is not carnal {fleshly} this is a spiritual BATTLE and the Holy Spirit fights for us... we can not win this battle on our own.... this is why we have church splits/ fights . to many carnal minds the way i see it if you feel that is what rev scripture means then that is for you.. i really believe if we stumble /run back into sin . at some point we will like the prodigal come to our senses . if one does not i doubt they was ever saved.. my self i plan on staying in the race and asking for God help for me to stay in it. i sure can,t do this on my own

 

[chessman]

and may be subject to having their names blotted out of the book of life.

Besides the fact that the passage literally says the opposite; "I will never erase his name from the book of life" why do you assume that having your name erased from the book of life really means 'loss of salvation'? Why can't it mean what it says (loss of life)?

Rev 3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:
“This is what the one who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars says: ‘I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, and you are dead. 2 Be on the alert and strengthen the remaining things that are about to die, for I have not found your works completed before my God.
​

For goodness sake, if you have a name in the book of life, "you are alive". Simple.

Genesis 7:23
And he blotted out every living thing upon the surface of the ground, from humankind, to animals, to creeping things, and to the birds of heaven; they were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained.​

When the animals, reptiles and birds were 'blotted out' did they lose their 'salvation' on your view?

 

[JLB]

God's discipline of physical death

Please quote the scripture that teaches we are saved from physical death.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB said: ↑
Just post the scripture that says Jesus Christ paid for your future sins.

​

Great verse. I failed to recall another great verse when I answered that question.

Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

If Christ didn't die and pay for ALL sins, Heb 10:14 cannot be true about being "made perfect FOREVER". Not possible.


Amen!!

No mention of future sins.

Please post the scripture that says Jesus paid for our future sins.

The only way to be forgiven of your sins is to confess you sins.

Those who live in sin, and continually break His commandments can not claim anymore they have eternal life, which he is knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

He gives you s grace, and provides for us to be forgiven our sins by confessing them.

He is faithful to cleanse us so as to continue in relationship.

Sin separates us from God.

Jesus Christ came to reconcile us to God through the cross.

Those Christian's who practice a life of sin, can no longer claim they "know Him".


JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 5:20-21 Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

Where sin increases, grace is present in greater abundance.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. ​

The blood of Jesus (not your flesh) cleanses us from all sin (past, present, future)

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from the sins we have committed.

There is no mention of future sins.

All sin indicates all the sin we have committed.

Unless you actually commit a sin then you have not sinned and so there is nothing to forgive.


JLB

 

[chessman]

i feel this way as Paul wrote work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

'working out' = serving out

Psalm 2:11
Serve Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

1 Corinthians 2:1Lexham English Bible (LEB)
Paul’s Approach to Ministry in Corinth

2 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
3 And I came to you in weakness and in fear and with much trembling,


Phil 2:12 Therefore my dear friends ...​

Christ’s Humiliation and Exaltation
5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

"Therefore" in verse 12 points readers to the preceding passage and very reason for him saying "work out" (serve out) your own salvation with fear and trembling. Namely by giving all superiority and wisdom to God in Christ Jesus the Lord (Who is in you). He was the One obedient to the point of death and was God (v6).
If 'believers' are thinking they are acting as their own co-savior along with Him, we are doing the complete opposite of "fear and trembling". Rather than understanding we "own" salvation because of Him, not us.

 

[JLB]

This is nothing more than a smear technique against a view that opposes your view. Please knock it off. It's totally untrue.

What reason is there to teach God's people they can worship other gods, or become homosexuals or renounce Jesus Christ or depart from the faith or take the mark of the beast and still be saved, if not to tickle their ears?


JLB

 

[ezra]

'working out' = serving out

then we serve him while working works follows salvation our works will be judged by fire . all of you are butting heads against a brick wall

 

[Douglas Summers]

Not regarding collective beliefs as a whole, people do have different beliefs about what Scripture is about. That is why we have so many denominations etc. Most of the time it is a misunderstanding, or a different degree of interpretive depth, which causes these differences. This thread is an example of this.

In regards of collective beliefs, this includes all our beliefs regardless if they are true or not, or Scripture of not. The collective beliefs in a person creates the persons personality. It is like the ingredients of a cake, ever cake, even when followed by the same recipe, is not exactly the same. Many beliefs will collude with other beliefs. If one belief causes fear in a person, and it colludes with other beliefs normally without fear, can cause reason to have fear it never had before.

In regards to being saved, I understand Christian souls are saved. But as in Galatians 6:7-9 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 the scripture suggests that there will be a degree of what is saved, that being of good fruit / Truth in a person.

The common part of us that bridges flesh and Spirit is the mind. As in body-mind-soul. Body-mind collects beliefs about the world. The soul-mind collects beliefs about the kingdom of God. The soul is also effected by the mind's beliefs about the world. That is why there is a strong emphases on dying to the flesh (body-mind) part, so the soul only has the beliefs of the Spirit.

When we die, the soul will be examined, like the tares in the parable of the weeds among good plants. There is no provision for worldly (untrue) beliefs in the kingdom of God. They must be banished. So, as in collective beliefs, how much of the soul is effected by what is True will be worth saving. By living the way, the truth, and life in Christ (a way of truthful living) will save more soul for Christ than not, don't you think.

This is just my honest opinion. I am not trying to convert anybody, I am just being honest in how I discern the Scriptures and the Loving Spirit in my heart.

I understand what you are saying as you see things. It seems complicated to the simplicity that is in Christ.