When does a believer receive eternal life?

[chessman]

John 10:28 is half of a statement, which is the result of meeting the condition of verse 27.

There is no conditional in verse 27. You keep making this error:

Greek Conditional Sentences
Conditional sentences are "If ..., then ..." statements. They make a statement that if something happens, then something else will happen.
The 'if' clause is referred to as the 'protasis' by grammarians. It comes from the Greek words 'pro' (meaning before) and 'stasis' (meaning 'stand'). So the 'protasis' means 'what stands before' or 'comes first' as far as these two clauses are concerned. The 'then' clause is termed the 'apodosis'; it is what 'comes after' the protasis.

http://www.ntgreek.org/history_new_recent/conditional_index.htm


John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.​

IF the verse stated:

'IF My sheep listen to my voice, and if I know them, and if they follow me THEN John I will give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.'
THEN you would have a Biblical point.

But that's not what Jesus said, therefore not what He meant.

 

[gr8grace3]

Not only that, but those that do not overcome will be blotted out of the book of Life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5



JLB

And I would like to ask you a favor. Quit saying that I am saying, "live like hell and sin all you want" just because I believe in eternal security.

I believe there are eternal consequences, in time consequences and a miserable existence to look forward to if we don't follow Gods plan for our lives in time........It just isn't loss of salvation.

Stop going to the 'default' argument for "OSAS", which is most always "perseverance of the saints." Eternal security, the Christian view, has dire consequences for the believer who lives out of His plan. It just isn't loss of salvation or " they were never really saved."

 

[gr8grace3]

So who are the people who will say Lord Lord...and He will say, I never knew you...??

Those who have added their works to His salvation and have never fully trusted in His Work alone. They are good people, nice people and they are folks who have said," I need to ADD to Your finished work to be saved." He knows the sinner who has believed/trusted TOTALLY on The Lords work. He will never know those who take the wide path of doing their own good for their salvation.........even if they 'sprinkle' in a little Jesus.

 

[ezra]

Stop going to the 'default' argument for "OSAS", which is most always "perseverance of the saints." Eternal security, the Christian view, has dire consequences for the believer who lives out of His plan. It just isn't loss of salvation or " they were never really saved."

they were never really saved.

yes

 

[gr8grace3]

yes

Yeah. It is either Armin or calvin. The Christian/true view is about...................invisible anymore.

 

[ezra]

Yeah. It is either Armin or calvin. The Christian/true view is about...................invisible anymore.

i have read up on both views i really could acre less on either one all though there are many points i disagree with in calvinism when it comes to eternal security there will be no agreement . i really dont preach either way. peoples mind are made up those who was raised in the southern baptist church they are locked in to eternal security .if your truly saved and get away from the Lord you will come back. honestly posting on this is like beating a dead horse

 

[reba]

FreeGrace and I have said this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........We had better confess our sin 1 John 1:9, walk in the Spirit, be filled with the Spirit and live in His plan for our lives. If we don't, the consequences are eternal and miserable.............it just isn't loss of salvation.

This is why NO ONE can prove loss of salvation from scripture.

And it is SIMPLE to prove eternal security............" They will NEVER perish." John 10:28.

If believers continually live in the flesh............you bet they can die physically before their time, lose eternal rewards,lose out on glorifying Christ, shrink away in shame at His coming, suffer divine discipline, have a pile of ashes at His evaluation of them, and enter the kingdom as if through fire........But many/most believers are working hard and believe brothers and sisters should FRY if they don't "measure up."

And I would like to ask you a favor. Quit saying that I am saying, "live like hell and sin all you want" just because I believe in eternal security.

I believe there are eternal consequences, in time consequences and a miserable existence to look forward to if we don't follow Gods plan for our lives in time........It just isn't loss of salvation.

Stop going to the 'default' argument for "OSAS", which is most always "perseverance of the saints." Eternal security, the Christian view, has dire consequences for the believer who lives out of His plan. It just isn't loss of salvation or " they were never really saved."

these 2 post are interesting ... gr8grace3, basically says live like hell and sin all ya want in the first one listed .... then asks for that not to be said...

 

[gr8grace3]

these 2 post are interesting ... gr8grace3, basically says live like hell and sin all ya want in the first one listed .... then asks for that not to be said...

I have no clue how that can be said Reba.......Unless one want's to regard lightly the discipline of the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

Live like hell.......expect a life of hell. Just not loss of salvation. John 10:28

And GEESH, How can believers NOT see this????????

 

[JLB]

And I would like to ask you a favor. Quit saying that I am saying, "live like hell and sin all you want" just because I believe in eternal security.

I believe there are eternal consequences, in time consequences and a miserable existence to look forward to if we don't follow Gods plan for our lives in time........It just isn't loss of salvation.

Stop going to the 'default' argument for "OSAS", which is most always "perseverance of the saints." Eternal security, the Christian view, has dire consequences for the believer who lives out of His plan. It just isn't loss of salvation or " they were never really saved."

Ok. Maybe your different than Freegrace and others who teach OSAS.

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become a homosexual and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
Renounce Christ and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No


Do you believe a born again Christian can
become a liar and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become an adulterer and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
hate his brother and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become an idolater and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
Return to unbelieving and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No


My answer in no. They will not still be saved.


Here is just one of many scriptures that teach this.

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


What is your answer?


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Ok. Maybe your different than Freegrace and others who teach OSAS.

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become a homosexual and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
Renounce Christ and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No


Do you believe a born again Christian can
become a liar and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become an adulterer and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
hate his brother and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become an idolater and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
Return to unbelieving and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No


My answer in no. They will not still be saved.


Here is just one of many scriptures that teach this.

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


What is your answer?


JLB

A born again believer is saved. John 10:28. Yes on all questions. But it won't pretty for them in this life if they continue living in the flesh.

And one question that wasn't asked.....Can born again believer revert back to their OWN self righteousness(which is WORSE than being a gay,murdering, lying thief, brother hating adulterer) and still be saved? Yes on that one also............And THAT is the problem in todays world, not a bunch of "live like hell" believers.

 

[JLB]

There is no conditional in verse 27. You keep making this error:

Greek Conditional Sentences
Conditional sentences are "If ..., then ..." statements. They make a statement that if something happens, then something else will happen.
The 'if' clause is referred to as the 'protasis' by grammarians. It comes from the Greek words 'pro' (meaning before) and 'stasis' (meaning 'stand'). So the 'protasis' means 'what stands before' or 'comes first' as far as these two clauses are concerned. The 'then' clause is termed the 'apodosis'; it is what 'comes after' the protasis.

http://www.ntgreek.org/history_new_recent/conditional_index.htm


John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.​

IF the verse stated:

'IF My sheep listen to my voice, and if I know them, and if they follow me THEN John I will give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.'
THEN you would have a Biblical point.

But that's not what Jesus said, therefore not what He meant.

I wrote what Jesus said, you changed it.

Verse 27 is the condition for being His sheep and receiving eternal life.

My employees listen and do the work they are given, resulting in being paid on Friday.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28

Hear My voice is very clear in meaning;
Hearken to do.

You can not divorce obedience from eternal life.

This same John says in 1 John -

He who says, “I know Him,” (eternal life) and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

He says it this way in Revelation-

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


JLB

 

[reba]

gr8grace3 a simple thing happens in typing in threads ..we do not know what is in the mind of the poster... most of us try to keep our post short that is good yet it limits the readers understanding... readers read a post from what is in their heads ..
In reading the posts above i quoted. what i see is Christian saying dont matter what we do we are saved... a simple live like hell cause you have salvation... that may not be what you intended the reader to grasp but that is what i see there... I fully understand for lack of better words the discipline of the Lord first hand like most the rest of us..

 

[gr8grace3]

~~Why I signed up to this site~~
Their doctrinal statement......
"We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."

 

[gr8grace3]

gr8grace3 a simple thing happens in typing in threads ..we do not know what is in the mind of the poster... most of us try to keep our post short that is good yet it limits the readers understanding... readers read a post from what is in their heads ..
In reading the posts above i quoted. what i see is Christian saying dont matter what we do we are saved... a simple live like hell cause you have salvation... that may not be what you intended the reader to grasp but that is what i see there... I fully understand for lack of better words the discipline of the Lord first hand like most the rest of us..

I don't think so Reba. I have stated over and over and over the discipline of the Lord if we don't follow His plan for our lives. People want loss of salvation for other believers so truth is just, well, overlooked.

 

[gr8grace3]

The people contending for the sites STATED beliefs are the ones CONSTANTLY shut down and shunned ..........Where is Eugene?

 

[chessman]

Verse 27 is the condition for being His sheep and receiving eternal life.

v27 is not a conditional statement, it's a declarational truth statement Neither is v28 a conditional statement, You might think v27 is a conditional statement and declare it to be. But that doesn't make your declaration true.

Here's the difference between a conditonal statement and a truth statement:

Peter makes a conditional statement here:

Matthew 26:33 But Peter answered and said to him, “If they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away!” ​

Jesus declares the truth:

Matthew 26:34 Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that during this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times!”
​

​

 

[Gary Sullivan]

Salvation is by Grace through faith alone Ephesians 2:8-10. Water baptism is commanded to those who already believe and relates to discipleship only. Remember salvation is a free gift but there are rewards for faithful servants-rewards can be lost as found in the letter to the Hebrews but as salvation is a free gift then it is impossible for us to lose. How did Jesus become sin for us because on the cross because every sin of man throughout the years was placed on HIM? His distress in Luke 22:44-46 had nothing to do with the crucifixion -see John 12:24 onwards but the fact that in the last 3 hours on the cross He was for the first and only time in eternity separated from the Father and the Holy Spirit-impossible for us to comprehend. See Habakkuk 1:13. Also Matthew 27:46 in fulfillment of Psalm 22:1 clearly identifies this agony and after this cry fellowship with the Father and the Holy.Spirit is resumed.
We all need to test everything from the Word not by going back to those who exegete incorrectly. Go to your concordance.
We need to be teachable only in the truth. We have the Word and the Holy Spirit to enable this. People however who do not trust in God will always believe what they want until it is too late. The fear of YHVH is needed not spiritual gymnastics.Remember 2 Corinthians 11:4 and indeed up to verse 15.John gives us 7 I AND of Jesus. The Son states His Name YHVH is I AM THAT I AM ie the eternal ONE and the covenant keeper-See Exodus 3:4_14 and John 8:58 etc-I AM in Hebrew and Greek means no beginning or ending of existence.How on earth or in heaven can the GOD-MAN not be pure and sinless in HIS humanity-if HE could we are all lost but the WORD is true PRAISE THE LORD.

God Bless

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Which occurred the MOMENT on believes, because Jesus said whoever believes HAS eternal life."

No scripture just opinion.

Please explain what Jesus meant by "whoever believes HAS eternal life". And, if eternal life is not given the MOMENT one believes, please provide Scripture that teaches WHEN the gift of eternal life is given.

Now we all who believe have the hope of eternal life, which means we have salvation by faith in Christ Jesus and will receive the salvation of our soul at the end of our faith.

Please explain what "end of our faith" means. When is that?

Here are the scriptures:

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29[/QUOTE]
This doesn't speak of WHEN.

And again

that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

I'm always happy when Scripture is posted that refutes your own view and supports mine. So thanks.

The key in this verse is "become heirs". What do heirs get? An inheritance, of course. So, the author of Titus 3:7 also wrote Eph 1:13,14:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

All this from "having believed". A past tense action with guaranteed results.
1. sealed IN HIM, making the one having believed God's possession
2. indwelt with the Holy Spirit
3. this indwelling GUARANTEES our INHERITANCE
4. this GUARANTEE is until the REDEMPTION of God's possession

And the Greek word for "hope" means confident expectation. iow, we can be totally confident that we will be with God in the next life.

However, those who believe salvation can be lost do not have this hope, do they?

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

Please explain what "end of your faith" means.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's up to you to prove what you claim from the scriptures.

I've done that. Unlike yourself.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not only that, but those that do not overcome will be blotted out of the book of Life.

Please post the Scripture that actually says anyone will be blotted out of the book of life. Just offering an unsupported opinion has no place on these forums.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5
JLB

Seems you've misread this verse. It says NOTHING about anyone being blotted out.

The phrase is a literary device called litotes.
Litotes, derived from a Greek word meaning “simple”, is a figure of speech which employs an understatement by using double negatives or, in other words, positive statement is expressed by negating its opposite expressions.

For example, using the expression “not too bad” for “very good” is an understatement as well as a double negative statement that confirms a positive idea by negating the opposite. Similarly, saying “She is not a beauty queen,” means “She is ugly” or saying “I am not as young as I used to be” in order to avoid saying “I am old”. Litotes, therefore, is an intentional use of understatement that renders an ironical effect.
From: https://literarydevices.net/litotes/

So again, please post any Scripture that actually says that someone WAS blotted out of the book of life.