When does a believer receive eternal life?

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
Not only that, but those that do not overcome will be blotted out of the book of Life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5
JLB

It does NOT say, " those that do not overcome will be blotted out of the book of life." Those are your words.

Some like to charge others with only posting opinion, even when Scripture is given, but then they just go ahead and offer their own opinions as well.

Very hypocritical.

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Since every mention of being burned or fire seems to mean hell in your view, please explain then why EVERYONE will end up in hell, according to Scripture.

Mark 9:49 - Everyone will be salted with fire.

Why would you teach God's people that they do not need to remain joined to Him?
JLB

Why make such blatant lies about others? Eph 1:13-14 teaches that from "having believed", one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

These 2 verses totally refute your unbiblical views and misunderstanding of John 15.

So, instead of what your false claim says, I have consistently taught that believers MUST stay in fellowship with Christ, through confession of sins (1 Jn 1:9) and walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16).

But Paul taught that our sealing IN HIM GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption.

I'm really puzzled why those words aren't seen as a clear statement of eternal security.

Oh, right. The Bible tells us why that is.
Ezek 12:2
"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people."

 

[FreeGrace]

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

• Only people who overcome are not blotted out of the Book of Life.

JLB

Just more assumption from what is NOT said. And the phrase is a literary device called litotes. I provided an explanation of it and how it is used.

 

[ezra]

I don't think so Reba. I have stated over and over and over the discipline of the Lord if we don't follow His plan for our lives. People want loss of salvation for other believers so truth is just, well, overlooked.

i understand where your coming from .mainly because i have studied this out.......(playing a broken record ) i will post this from the side that disagrees . there are those who do live like hell .but yet claim eternal security i have known southern BAPTIST living together not married .still believe they are saved.
i know of a person plays in a band drinks along the way has a bar in his basement . but will attend church and all is well with his soul . from my understanding true eternal security is knowing your truly saved. trying to walk the walk talk the talk . paul even addressed sin in grace what shall we sin because we are under grace ? he said certainly not . i do not buy this person living how they want but getting no rewards but still go to heaven.
our salvation is secure but it is not a excuse to sin. yes both sides claim eternal security find a general baptist that no longer tries to live for the Lord no longer goes to church . ask them if they are saved answer why yes i am .
i will say this again (broken record playing ) a person living in sin showing no sign of repentance not even asking the Lord for help... I HAVE DOUBTS THEY WAS EVER SAVED.

 

[FreeGrace]

And I would like to ask you a favor. Quit saying that I am saying, "live like hell and sin all you want" just because I believe in eternal security.

Those who keep making that false charge are referred to in the OT:
Ezek 12:2
"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people."

 

[FreeGrace]

these 2 post are interesting ... gr8grace3, basically says live like hell and sin all ya want in the first one listed .... then asks for that not to be said...

No, he never "said live like hell and sin all ya want".

It's sad that this seems to be the ONLY conclusion of eternal security among some.

Question:
Can any recipient of eternal life for any reason ever perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

I have no clue how that can be said Reba.......Unless one want's to regard lightly the discipline of the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

Live like hell.......expect a life of hell. Just not loss of salvation. John 10:28

And GEESH, How can believers NOT see this????????

I think the OT has the answer. Eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear. Some people only "see" what they want to see or hear.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok. Maybe your different than Freegrace and others who teach OSAS.

This is beyond a sham.

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become a homosexual and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
Renounce Christ and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No


Do you believe a born again Christian can
become a liar and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become an adulterer and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
hate his brother and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
become an idolater and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

Do you believe a born again Christian can
Return to unbelieving and live that way until they die and still be saved? Yes or No

I side with what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life. They shall never perish. I believe that 100%.

My answer in no. They will not still be saved.

OK. So you don't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. Nice to know. But not nice to believe.

Here is just one of many scriptures that teach this.

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ paid the sin debt on the cross. Not "part" of the sin debt. Not "some" of the sin debt. Not "most" of the sin debt. But...THE sin debt. That means all of the debt.

So there CANNOT be any sin that would undo one's salvation. Such a thought is blasphemous, as it renders Christ's sacrifice as incomplete, not good enough.

How can anyone NOT see that clearly?

 

[FreeGrace]

A born again believer is saved. John 10:28. Yes on all questions. But it won't pretty for them in this life if they continue living in the flesh.

And one question that wasn't asked.....Can born again believer revert back to their OWN self righteousness(which is WORSE than being a gay,murdering, lying thief, brother hating adulterer) and still be saved? Yes on that one also............And THAT is the problem in todays world, not a bunch of "live like hell" believers.

What is clear from such posts as the one you just answered is that some people just don't believe that salvation is eternal.

For them, it's only probationary until they have "proved" themselves at the end of their lives.

What is fascinating is their views cannot be found in the Bible. Where do we read about this "probationary salvation"?

If salvation can be taken away, removed, revoked, lost, forfeited (and whatever other silly word used), then it surely ISN'T eternal. It's only probationary.

It's a sad state of affairs within evangelicalism when people make up stuff and can't defend their views but continue to hold onto it with a tight grip.

 

[FreeGrace]

I wrote what Jesus said, you changed it.

How come you teach that recipients of eternal life can perish, when Jesus taught that they shall never perish?

Verse 27 is the condition for being His sheep and receiving eternal life.

Please point out the "if" word, which establishes a condition in that verse. Or please cease from making up stuff.

Jesus also taught that whoever believes HAS eternal life. Please explain WHEN specifically that occurs. With Scripture to support your answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

In reading the posts above i quoted. what i see is Christian saying dont matter what we do we are saved... a simple live like hell cause you have salvation

The problem is that you've "read that into" what was posted.

It MATTERS a great deal how Christians live, and both gr8grace3 have explained in detail why and how that matters to the believer.

But because Jesus taught eternal security, how we live doesn't effect our salvation. But it DOES effect our lives, both now on earth, and in eternity. Greatly. Why can't that be accepted? It's not only reasonable, but we have shown the Scripture that teaches this.

 

[JLB]

A born again believer is saved. John 10:28. Yes on all questions. But it won't pretty for them in this life if they continue living in the flesh.

And one question that wasn't asked.....Can born again believer revert back to their OWN self righteousness(which is WORSE than being a gay,murdering, lying thief, brother hating adulterer) and still be saved? Yes on that one also............And THAT is the problem in todays world, not a bunch of "live like hell" believers.

That is what OSAS produces: A bunch of live like hell, backsliden people who think they can become homosexual or live in adultery or sexual immorality, even renounce the Lord Jesus and become Muslim or New Age and still be saved.

It's the very doctrine that has weakened the Church and reduced it to those who live anyway they want, and are convinced they are somehow still saved.


He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

• Do you believe a born again Christian can become a homosexual and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

• Do you believe a born again Christian can renounce Christ and live that way until they die and still be saved?

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have [eternal] life. 1 John 5:12

• Do you believe a born again Christian can become a liar and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4



Do you believe a born again Christian can become an adulterer and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• Do you believe a born again Christian can hate his brother and live that way until they die and still be saved?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• Do you believe a born again Christian can become an idolater and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

• Do you believe a born again Christian can return to unbelieving and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:17-19



The OSAS doctrine is the enemy of the cross.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
I don't think so Reba. I have stated over and over and over the discipline of the Lord if we don't follow His plan for our lives. People want loss of salvation for other believers so truth is just, well, overlooked.

i understand where your coming from .mainly because i have studied this out.......(playing a broken record ) i will post this from the side that disagrees . there are those who do live like hell .but yet claim eternal security i have known southern BAPTIST living together not married .still believe they are saved.

The failure of some believers should not drive our theological views. They should come strictly from Scripture. And Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. I take that as a promise. Not a probationary condition.

And, there are many verses about God's discipline for His own children that don't sound at all agreeable. For example:
1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Does this sound like just a little slap on the hand? No. I see a progression: weakness, then sickness, then physical death.

That's what a rebellious believer can expect. The only problem is how few pastors teach this clearly. Many (Calvinists) just write off such believers as "were never really saved in the first place, or they wouldn't live like that". Other pastors (Arminians) explain it away as having lost salvation. Neither are right. Both are wrong.

i know of a person plays in a band drinks along the way has a bar in his basement . but will attend church and all is well with his soul .

But you don't really know that. All one can see is the outside. Not the soul. But God does. And the timing of God's discipline isn't what we may think it should be. So just because a wayward believer "seems to be" getting away with something, leave it in God's hand.

Our response to such believers is stated in Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

But the problem is that most don't want to "offend" others and confront the sin of others. You know, we don't want to be "judgmental".

However, that is EXACTLY is what we do when we see such a believer and claim "they were never saved to begin with", or that they have lost their salvation. Neither of which ANY human being can judge. So, let God be Judge and let Him take care of His children.

from my understanding true eternal security is knowing your truly saved.

No, even the conditional (probationary) security group is secure, even though they don't believe it.

trying to walk the walk talk the talk .

This cannot be eternal security, or that would mean your security is based on what you do. No grace in that.

paul even addressed sin in grace what shall we sin because we are under grace ? he said certainly not . i do not buy this person living how they want but getting no rewards but still go to heaven.
our salvation is secure but it is not a excuse to sin. yes both sides claim eternal security find a general baptist that no longer tries to live for the Lord no longer goes to church . ask them if they are saved answer why yes i am .
i will say this again (broken record playing ) a person living in sin showing no sign of repentance not even asking the Lord for help... I HAVE DOUBTS THEY WAS EVER SAVED.

Again, (broken record), judging one's saved state by only external observation is judging without all the facts.

1 Cor 6 tells us to separate ourselves from immoral believers.
2 Thess 3:14 - Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Note the next verse: Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is what OSAS produces: A bunch of live like hell, backsliden people who think they can become homosexual or live in adultery or sexual immorality, even renounce the Lord Jesus and become Muslim or New Age and still be saved.

So you've interviewed every believer who believes in ETERNAL salvation, huh? When was that done? I don't recall being interviewed.

btw, your blanket indictment just impuned the character of every eternal security proponent. Of which you have no knowledge.

Judging without facts reveals a lack of character.

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

Once again, you've quoted a verse that does NOT say what you keep claiming. It's the truth that isn't in him, not eternal life that isn't in him.

You're not reading the verses accurately.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Right. There will be no inheritance when such believers enter the kingdom.

Do you believe a born again Christian can renounce Christ and live that way until they die and still be saved?
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have [eternal] life. 1 John 5:12

Do you believe a born again Christian can become a liar and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

Do you believe a born again Christian can become an adulterer and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4.

Do you believe a born again Christian can become an adulterer and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• Do you believe a born again Christian can hate his brother and live that way until they die and still be saved?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• Do you believe a born again Christian can become an idolater and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

He who says, “I know Him,” [has eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

• Do you believe a born again Christian can return to unbelieving and live that way until they die and still be saved?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:17-19

Want to know what's WORSE than any or all of this? The one who claims to be a Christian yet disregards what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. And their views are in direct contradiction to what Jesus said.

Yet, they are also still saved.

The OSAS doctrine is the enemy of the cross.
JLB

No, it's the OSNAS doctrine that blasphemes the cross. Rendering the sacrifice of Jesus as incomplete, and in need of one's own efforts to either get or stay saved.

 

[JLB]

~~-bolded,underlined and enlarged above~~Those are your words. Rev 3:5 does not say that.

Here is the bible definition of overcome:

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5

• Those who return to unbelieving in the face of persecution are not overcomers.

He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8



He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


Again those who overcome are those believe even unto the death, which is the context of the letters of Revelation, written to the Churches who were suffering persecution and death for His name.


10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10



JLB

 

[ezra]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
I don't think so Reba. I have stated over and over and over the discipline of the Lord if we don't follow His plan for our lives. People want loss of salvation for other believers so truth is just, well, overlooked.

The failure of some believers should not drive our theological views. They should come strictly from Scripture. And Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. I take that as a promise. Not a probationary condition.

And, there are many verses about God's discipline for His own children that don't sound at all agreeable. For example:
1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Does this sound like just a little slap on the hand? No. I see a progression: weakness, then sickness, then physical death.

That's what a rebellious believer can expect. The only problem is how few pastors teach this clearly. Many (Calvinists) just write off such believers as "were never really saved in the first place, or they wouldn't live like that". Other pastors (Arminians) explain it away as having lost salvation. Neither are right. Both are wrong.


But you don't really know that. All one can see is the outside. Not the soul. But God does. And the timing of God's discipline isn't what we may think it should be. So just because a wayward believer "seems to be" getting away with something, leave it in God's hand.

Our response to such believers is stated in Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

But the problem is that most don't want to "offend" others and confront the sin of others. You know, we don't want to be "judgmental".

However, that is EXACTLY is what we do when we see such a believer and claim "they were never saved to begin with", or that they have lost their salvation. Neither of which ANY human being can judge. So, let God be Judge and let Him take care of His children.


No, even the conditional (probationary) security group is secure, even though they don't believe it.


This cannot be eternal security, or that would mean your security is based on what you do. No grace in that.


Again, (broken record), judging one's saved state by only external observation is judging without all the facts.

1 Cor 6 tells us to separate ourselves from immoral believers.
2 Thess 3:14 - Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Note the next verse: Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

what would you call a prostitute on the street selling sex? a saint would you consider a person who went to the altar make a profession of Christ . but still lived the Homosexual lifestyle?

would you consider them saved? i will support true eternal security but not as you claim ..reference 2 Corinthians 5:17 .
your above reply you just defended the live like hell but still be saved .......

 

[JLB]

So you've interviewed every believer who believes in ETERNAL salvation, huh? When was that done? I don't recall being interviewed.

That's because you never answered the questions I asked, [post 308] which now would be a good time for you to do.


If a born again Christian no longer believes in Jesus Christ, and converts to Islam, are they still saved according to your doctrine?

If a born again Christian becomes a homosexual and dies that way are they still saved according to your doctrine?




JLB

 

[ezra]

That is what OSAS produces: A bunch of live like hell, backsliden people who think they can become homosexual or live in adultery or sexual immorality, even renounce the Lord Jesus and become Muslim or New Age and still be saved.

It's the very doctrine that has weakened the Church and reduced it to those who live anyway they want, and are convinced they are somehow still saved.

sorry jlb but your wrong on this i can show you many who believe osas that lives a GODLY LIFE ..THERE is just as many non osas that live like hell but profess salvation 2

 

[ezra]

If a born again Christian no longer believes in Jesus Christ, and converts to Islam, are they still saved according to your doctrine?

If a born again Christian becomes a homosexual and dies that way are they still saved according to your doctrine?

they was never saved in the beginning

 

[Runner]

I do find that relevant. And it is a concern. At least a curiosity. I have read a few books and blogs on OSAS and find there are several flavors of the issue. Kinda like the book on 4 views of hell, there's differing views amongst the OSAS crowd. Some arguments tug me to the left, some to the right. One verse seems negated by another verse. And on and on. I find this endless argument very tiring.

The "different flavors" is a good point that I made on a similar thread at least a year ago.

Even when my entire Christian experience consisted of Campus Crusade and the Southern Baptist Church, I never heard anyone suggest that a decisive act of apostasy would not cut the cord. There probably are OSAS who hold that position, but I never heard it expressed. The OSAS position that I understood was more about the "liberating freedom" that one has by being saved - your sins, past and future, are forgiven. When you stumble, or even stray far from the path, you do not have to fear that your salvation is at risk. Even within in the camp of which I was a member, there was a sense that if you strayed far enough for long enough your original belief perhaps had not been sincere and you might want to rethink your salvation.

Likewise, the standard OSNAS position is not that one is first saved by believing but must now live the remainder of one's life trying to do enough "good works" to make the grade. It is, at least as I understand it, that one must simply continue to believe. Again, picking oneself back up when one stumbles and not committing a decisive act of apostasy. There are undoubtedly some OSNAS who emphasize the "quality" of one's works, but not really in the sense of earning salvation - more in the sense of demonstrating that one continues to believe.

In short, there are a lot of shades of gray, and it can be difficult to tell when OSAS blends into OSNAS and vice-versa. This is why the debate truly seems to me Much Ado About Nothing. If you took the polar extremes in each camp, which to some extent it does seem to be what surfaces again and again on these threads, you might have room for a "lively discussion," but certainly nothing that should cause someone to question whether someone else is saved. As Hermit keeps suggesting, it is difficult to read these threads and not see them as motivated by fear, anger and ego rather than any fruit of the Spirit.