When does a believer receive eternal life?

[ezra]

The "different flavors" is a good point that I made on a similar thread at least a year ago.

Even when my entire Christian experience consisted of Campus Crusade and the Southern Baptist Church, I never heard anyone suggest that a decisive act of apostasy would not cut the cord. There probably are OSAS who hold that position, but I never heard it expressed. The OSAS position that I understood was more about the "liberating freedom" that one has by being saved - your sins, past and future, are forgiven. When you stumble, or even stray far from the path, you do not have to fear that your salvation is at risk. Even within in the camp of which I was a member, there was a sense that if you strayed far enough for long enough your original belief perhaps had not been sincere and you might want to rethink your salvation.

Likewise, the standard OSNAS position is not that one is first saved by believing but must now live the remainder of one's life trying to do enough "good works" to make the grade. It is, at least as I understand it, that one must simply continue to believe. Again, picking oneself back up when one stumbles and not committing a decisive act of apostasy. There are undoubtedly some OSNAS who emphasize the "quality" of one's works, but not really in the sense of earning salvation - more in the sense of demonstrating that one continues to believe.

In short, there are a lot of shades of gray, and it can be difficult to tell when OSAS blends into OSNAS and vice-versa. This is why the debate truly seems to me Much Ado About Nothing. If you took the polar extremes in each camp, which to some extent it does seem to be what surfaces again and again on these threads, you might have room for a "lively discussion," but certainly nothing that should cause someone to question whether someone else is saved. As Hermit keeps suggesting, it is difficult to read these threads and not see them as motivated by fear, anger and ego rather than any fruit of the Spirit.

:amen

 

[JLB]

How come you teach that recipients of eternal life can perish, when Jesus taught that they shall never perish?

Because those who have faith in Jesus Christ, have the hope of salvation, and will receive it at the end of their faith.

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for. Remember?

If you have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, then you by default don't actually have the salvation of your soul yet, but you have the hope of salvation, which you will receive on the Day of Judgement, after The Righteous Judge, Jesus Christ will Judge each of us according to our deeds.

That is when we all will receive eternal life, when we have be resurrected from the dead, and the faithful will receive immortal bodies that will not die anymore.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Now matter how hard you try and twist the scriptures, you will never avoid standing before the Lord, and being Judged according to your deeds, to evaluate what you have done with the new divine nature of Christ that is empowered by the Spirit during your life.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:6-8

Here is who will receive eternal life, on that Day:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Did you love people, and serve them as unto Him? Good Fruit, useful to God.


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


Hebrews -

• For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;

• but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Jesus -

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

JLB

 

[reba]

No, he never "said live like hell and sin all ya want".

It's sad that this seems to be the ONLY conclusion of eternal security among some.

Question:
....

this misrepresentation of what was posted is normal

 

[reba]

gr8grace3 a simple thing happens in typing in threads ..we do not know what is in the mind of the poster... most of us try to keep our post short that is good yet it limits the readers understanding... readers read a post from what is in their heads ..
In reading the posts above i quoted. what i see is Christian saying dont matter what we do we are saved... a simple live like hell cause you have salvation... that may not be what you intended the reader to grasp but that is what i see there... I fully understand for lack of better words the discipline of the Lord first hand like most the rest of us..

The problem is that you've "read that into" what was posted.

It MATTERS a great deal how Christians live, and both gr8grace3 have explained in detail why and how that matters to the believer.

But because Jesus taught eternal security, how we live doesn't effect our salvation. But it DOES effect our lives, both now on earth, and in eternity. Greatly. Why can't that be accepted? It's not only reasonable, but we have shown the Scripture that teaches this.

Please read my post again. Using slightly different words i have said the same thing .. Paraphrasing the long list of gr8grace3 to living like hell is not a stretch ...

FreeGrace and I have said this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........We had better confess our sin 1 John 1:9, walk in the Spirit, be filled with the Spirit and live in His plan for our lives. If we don't, the consequences are eternal and miserable.............it just isn't loss of salvation.

This is why NO ONE can prove loss of salvation from scripture.

And it is SIMPLE to prove eternal security............" They will NEVER perish." John 10:28.

If believers continually live in the flesh............you bet they can die physically before their time, lose eternal rewards,lose out on glorifying Christ, shrink away in shame at His coming, suffer divine discipline, have a pile of ashes at His evaluation of them, and enter the kingdom as if through fire........But many/most believers are working hard and believe brothers and sisters should FRY if they don't "measure up."

 

[FreeGrace]

what would you call a prostitute on the street selling sex?

A prostitute.

a saint would you consider a person who went to the altar make a profession of Christ . but still lived the Homosexual lifestyle?

I don't consider going to an altar, making a profession, etc as the real deal. Neither are biblical. My only emphasis is on what a person believes. If this prostitute or homosexual ever believed in Jesus Christ as Savior, then I KNOW from Jesus' teachings that He gave them the gift of eternal life, and I KNOW what He said about recipients of eternal life; they shall never perish.

Are these people "getting away" with their sins? No. God will not be mocked.
Gal 6:7 - Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows

I believe that Arminians mock God when they claim that eternal security lets people "get away with" sin.

I expect the next verse will be used as a refutation of my view, but since what Jesus taught about recipients of eternal life is clear, I know that such an attempted "refutation" is only another misunderstanding of verses.

would you consider them saved?

As I pointed out, I'm not impressed with walking an aisle, or raising a hand, or even making professions (people lie).

My only emphasis is on what people have believed. That makes all the difference.

I'm sure many guys have made a "profession of faith" only hoping to score with their girl friend. And we all have heard the stories of missionaries who report on the many who make "professions of faith" only to receive whatever goodies the missionaries are handing out: medical care, food, supplies, etc.

i will support true eternal security but not as you claim

I will take that as not really supporting eternal security. You're basing one's eternal destiny on WHAT THEY DO, not what they have believed. The Bible doesn't teach that.

..reference 2 Corinthians 5:17.

This verse says nothing about how one lives. It's about the change that God makes in every believer. We are a new creature/creation.

Where does the Bible guarantee that a new creature/creation will necessarily act new? It doesn't.

Instead, the Bible commands every believer to "live a life worthy" of the calling they were called to. If a changed life were automatic, there would be no need at all for such commands.

Eph 4:1 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Phil 1:27 - Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel

Col 1:10 - so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

2 Thess 1:5 - All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

One who thinks a changed life is guaranteed or automatic because one has been regenerated must consider these verses. They ALL command, encourage, and urge the believer to life up to their changed status.

your above reply you just defended the live like hell but still be saved .......

No, sadly, that's your conclusion, which is in error.

The fact of eternal security INCLUDES all the Bible has to say about God's discipline of His own people, saved people. They will be punished, and it will be painful. Or do you not believe Heb 12:11?

And claiming that eternal security results in getting away with sin only mocks God Himself.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's because you never answered the questions I asked, [post 308] which now would be a good time for you to do.


If a born again Christian no longer believes in Jesus Christ, and converts to Islam, are they still saved according to your doctrine?

If a born again Christian becomes a homosexual and dies that way are they still saved according to your doctrine?
JLB

It seems to me that what Jesus taught about eternal security isn't being believed in your view.

Well, that's just sad. He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That is eternal security.

There are no conditions on those given eternal life (recipients). The direct result of receiving eternal life is that they shall never perish.

That's why we use the phrase eternal salvation. But Arminians cannot say that, because they don't believe that.

They should rather use the phrase probationary salvation, for that is what they really believe, even though there is NOTHING about that in the Bible.

We're all sinners, even though saved. Are you getting away with anything? No one else does either.

Claiming that eternal security results in getting away with sin mocks the justice of God. I don't recommand it.

 

[reba]

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


This read to me as we are free from sin ... i have read posts in this thread that say is other words we (christians) are to sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

they was never saved in the beginning

Nope. 1 John 2:25 doesn't support this notion. The verse has to do with accepting sound doctrine, not about whether one is saved or not.

King David was a mature believer when he raped and murdered.

Yet, what did he ask God for after he repented of those sins?
Psa 51:12 - Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

Notice what he did NOT ask for: "restore to me my salvation". He was asking for fellowship to be restored. Not salvation.

 

[LovethroughDove]

So, it's clear from Scripture that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one initially believes. Not some time after that.

Therefore, one is eternally saved WHEN one believes in Christ.

This is why all the confusion about security. Because someone can say they believe in Christ, but what part of Jesus they have believed in is what grants security. There are many new agers and fake believers that understand parts of Christ but not the part that saves. This is the part of Jesus that saves:

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Most people do not really believe there is a real person that walked the earth and he is ALIVE today.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"How come you teach that recipients of eternal life can perish, when Jesus taught that they shall never perish?"

Because those who have faith in Jesus Christ, have the hope of salvation, and will receive it at the end of their faith.

You never answered my question about WHEN one actually receives the gift of eternal life, or what "end of their faith" means. And this is just another waffle.

Jesus said "whoever believes HAS eternal life". This is present tense possession. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47. How many times must a verse state a truth before it will be believed????

Because of what He said, we know that when one believes is when they receive it.

So, from the moment WHEN one believes, Jesus says they shall never perish.

No one has even come close to refuting that fact.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No, he never "said live like hell and sin all ya want".

It's sad that this seems to be the ONLY conclusion of eternal security among some."

this misrepresentation of what was posted is normal

What's the "misrepresentation"? I noted the conclusion is "among some". I didn't say "all". I would like to know what I misrepresented.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please read my post again. Using slightly different words i have said the same thing .. Paraphrasing the long list of gr8grace3 to living like hell is not a stretch ...

yes it is. Because you've disregarded all that gr8grace3 and I have said about God's discipline towards those who do live like hell.

What would you consider King David was doing when he raped Bathsheba and murdered Uriah? He was living like hell. And he paid dearly for that. He got away with nothing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This read to me as we are free from sin [/QUOTE]
I would like to ask a serious question. Have you achieved sinlessness, or do you still sin?

... i have read posts in this thread that say is other words we (christians) are to sin.

I must challenge this. Where has anyone made such a claim or statement; that Christians "are to sin"?

 

[FreeGrace]

This is why all the confusion about security. Because someone can say they believe in Christ, but what part of Jesus they have believed in is what grants security.

How about we just let God deal with all that. That's not our issue.

There are many new agers and fake believers that understand parts of Christ but not the part that saves. This is the part of Jesus that saves:

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Most people do not really believe there is a real person that walked the earth and he is ALIVE today.

Eternal security only relates to that have been given eternal life. Does that clear this all up for you?

I'm not talking about professors, etc. I'm talking about what Jesus talked about when He said: I given them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish.

That is eternal security. Available ONLY to those He gives eternal life. No one else.

 

[ezra]

A prostitute.


I don't consider going to an altar, making a profession, etc as the real deal. Neither are biblical. My only emphasis is on what a person believes. If this prostitute or homosexual ever believed in Jesus Christ as Savior, then I KNOW from Jesus' teachings that He gave them the gift of eternal life, and I KNOW what He said about recipients of eternal life; they shall never perish.

Are these people "getting away" with their sins? No. God will not be mocked.
Gal 6:7 - Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows

I believe that Arminians mock God when they claim that eternal security lets people "get away with" sin.

I expect the next verse will be used as a refutation of my view, but since what Jesus taught about recipients of eternal life is clear, I know that such an attempted "refutation" is only another misunderstanding of verses.


As I pointed out, I'm not impressed with walking an aisle, or raising a hand, or even making professions (people lie).

My only emphasis is on what people have believed. That makes all the difference.

I'm sure many guys have made a "profession of faith" only hoping to score with their girl friend. And we all have heard the stories of missionaries who report on the many who make "professions of faith" only to receive whatever goodies the missionaries are handing out: medical care, food, supplies, etc.


I will take that as not really supporting eternal security. You're basing one's eternal destiny on WHAT THEY DO, not what they have believed. The Bible doesn't teach that.


This verse says nothing about how one lives. It's about the change that God makes in every believer. We are a new creature/creation.

Where does the Bible guarantee that a new creature/creation will necessarily act new? It doesn't.

Instead, the Bible commands every believer to "live a life worthy" of the calling they were called to. If a changed life were automatic, there would be no need at all for such commands.

Eph 4:1 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Phil 1:27 - Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel

Col 1:10 - so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

2 Thess 1:5 - All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

One who thinks a changed life is guaranteed or automatic because one has been regenerated must consider these verses. They ALL command, encourage, and urge the believer to life up to their changed status.


No, sadly, that's your conclusion, which is in error.

The fact of eternal security INCLUDES all the Bible has to say about God's discipline of His own people, saved people. They will be punished, and it will be painful. Or do you not believe Heb 12:11?

And claiming that eternal security results in getting away with sin only mocks God Himself.

in one post you make very valid points what true eternal security is.. then on the other hand you say its ok if the continue in said sin pattern .. so which is eternal security is knowing your secure in Christ then on the other hand simply because they are living in willful sin .there saved .i really need to just pull away from this post ..i have read so many false accusations that simply are not what scripture teaches us. you discounted 2nd Corinthians 5:17 a new creation in Christ... maybe after this goes on another 20 pages .maybe the beating of the dead horse will be seen

 

[LovethroughDove]

That is eternal security. Available ONLY to those He gives eternal life. No one else.

True

 

[reba]

I would like to ask a serious question. Have you achieved sinlessness, or do you still sin?

Have you achieved sinlessness, answer nope
or do you still sin? answer yup
do i repent YUP Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[ezra]

 

[Edward]

You've just moved the goal posts. Jesus didn't add that condition in His statement about recipients of eternal life NEVER PERISHING.

But your comment INCLUDES a condition: "abiding in Him". If that is true, then John 10:28 is NOT true. Are you comfortable with that?

So we're allowed to not abide in Him, and go on in sin in our lives making our own decisions? JLB posted the scripture which says no murderer has eternal life within him...and we know that if we're guilty of any one that we're guilty of all...so...has no eternal life within him...doesn't mean what that says? I can't believe that.

Yes, Abiding in Him. You know, this is the sort of thing that...I hope I am wrong about, and that you are right! Because I'm not exactly the type of guy who has made all right decisions in his life, so this sort of brings on my own fear and trembling. What if that is right, and I had believed like you do? Then I may just be cast aside as a withered branch to be burnt because no fruit. I don't want to be the guy with 1 talent that buried it in the ground, then had it taken from him and got fired. Even if I were still saved...I don't want to be the plumber again in heaven! I'm going to press forward in most cautiousness to be safe...and to not have to be the plumber again, lol. I may not be an Elijah, but I am not going to be a Jonah.

So we agree to disagree on that point. We're still Brothers in Christ, so peace and blessings to you Brother.

...and it wouldn't be calling Jesus a liar if a man took the more cautious road of increased obedience and abiding in the Spirit either. That's a far out notion.

 

[Edward]

i will be upfront and honest with you. i tried in my post to get everyone to see that this is a brick wall when it comes to eternal security or losing / walking away from your salvation .. for years i have studied both sides of the coin and i am still pondering on it. my self i do lean toward eternal security....BUT not the way the southern and the other Baptist teach it . i am ordained through the general Baptist they believe one can walk away from salvation . i feel this way as Paul wrote work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

i have serious doubts these type folks are saved. i am in full agreement with you it is our duty paul wrote the weapons of our warfare (strategy ) is not carnal {fleshly} this is a spiritual BATTLE and the Holy Spirit fights for us... we can not win this battle on our own.... this is why we have church splits/ fights . to many carnal minds the way i see it if you feel that is what rev scripture means then that is for you.. i really believe if we stumble /run back into sin . at some point we will like the prodigal come to our senses . if one does not i doubt they was ever saved.. my self i plan on staying in the race and asking for God help for me to stay in it. i sure can,t do this on my own

i will be upfront and honest with you. i tried in my post to get everyone to see that this is a brick wall when it comes to eternal security or losing / walking away from your salvation .. for years i have studied both sides of the coin and i am still pondering on it. my self i do lean toward eternal security....BUT not the way the southern and the other Baptist teach it . i am ordained through the general Baptist they believe one can walk away from salvation . i feel this way as Paul wrote work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

I do hope that you're right Brother!

i have serious doubts these type folks are saved.

Well, what if these folks, have said the sinners prayer at one point so (Tada, received salvation and eternal life...) and then...it either matters or it don't that one would continues in worldliness and sin. (Fear and Trembling...)

i am in full agreement with you it is our duty paul wrote the weapons of our warfare (strategy ) is not carnal {fleshly} this is a spiritual BATTLE and the Holy Spirit fights for us... we can not win this battle on our own.... this is why we have church splits/ fights . to many carnal minds the way i see it if you feel that is what rev scripture means then that is for you.. i really believe if we stumble /run back into sin . at some point we will like the prodigal come to our senses . if one does not i doubt they was ever saved.. my self i plan on staying in the race and asking for God help for me to stay in it. i sure can,t do this on my own

I guess it is for me, because I got a pretty big check in my spirit on this. I mean, wow, what if He came back...as a thief in the night when I wasn't looking for Him, and hadn't did the prodigal son thing and repented yet...? Uh-oh. I can't take that chance Brother. I don't want to be left behind at the rapture. Or be the plumber in heaven, lol

:nod