When does a believer receive eternal life?

[FreeGrace]

Winter Tapioca said: ↑
You're Debbie_55? from Grace Centered forums topic: Once saved always saved is wrong. I ask because that is where the post above is copied from and it was published 5 years ago.

Yes, that is me and I wrote this and still believe it.

Then how can what Jesus said in John 10:28 about recipients of eternal life be believed?

If OSAS is right, then what Jesus said is wrong. There is no middle ground here.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see this referenced often with regard to eternal salvation arguments but have never found where Scripture equates the love of Christ solely with salvation. Can you provide the Scripture reference that clearly defines the love of Jesus Christ as equal with salvation? Does Jesus not love all?

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 NKJV
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 NKJV

otoh, what about the frequent references to John 10:28; that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

How is this not a clear promise of eternal security based on receiving eternal life? Please explain.

 

[JLB]

I did no such thing. Thinking we can overcome God's will is hubris, egoism and pride.

That would be misrepresenting my post, since you will not find where I mentioned overcoming God's will.

The Gospel in and of itself does not save anyone.

The person must believe the Gospel in order to be saved.

It is up to each person who hears the Gospel, whether of not to believe the Gospel.

It's a choice for each of us to make.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish

God does not force anyone to believe, if He did then all would believe, since it is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

• not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Repentance is where the person who hears the Gospel must choose to repent or not.

• Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that you express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18
Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Do you believe everything that Jesus said in Scripture?
Do you believe that He ever contradicted Himself?

What would lead one to think that I was trying to get you to do that??

If you love Christ, you should believe everything He said in Scripture. And then face the fact that He NEVER contradicted Himself."

Fear has gripped you brother.

Fear??? Really? How would one come to such a conclusion from what I posted? I clearly have no idea.

You won't let go of your need to be approved by others.

Ditto here.

Where has your love gone? It is working against you. You are still seeking it instead of giving it.

Still ditto.

I posed 3 questions, none of which you've even addressed, much less answered. Nothing there about trying to win the approval of others.

I ended with a challenge for those who claim to love Christ. If they do love Him, they should believe everything He said. But it seems there is no room to accept the clear words of John 10:28 and eternal security for Arminians who believe that salvation can be lost.

From what Jesus said, that would be impossible. And it would make Him a liar.

I'll end this post with a quote from Paul, which seems to be an appropriate response to your curious post about my motives:
Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. Gal 1:10

 

[JLB]

It's not what I say or have said. It's directly about what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Good to know, and since Jesus said many things, we must reconcile what He said, so as not take a part of what He said to build an unbiblical teaching from.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The condition: Hear my voice, know Him, follow Him, AND I give them eternal life.


After the condition is fulfilled then the result will be given.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The condition for salvation is believe.

The only condition. And Jesus gives eternal life to whoever believes. So in John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Don't forget Jn 3:15, 5:24, and 6:47 as well.

It is false to claim Jesus did put the condition of believe on salvation.

But John 3:16 says exatly that. "whoever believes shall not perish but possess (have) eternal life".

And your post opened with this statement:
"The condition for savlation is believe."

You've just contradicted yourself.

 

[JLB]

The only condition. And Jesus gives eternal life to whoever believes. So in John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The condition: Hear my voice, know Him, follow Him, AND I give them eternal life.


After the condition is fulfilled then the result will be given.


29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


When is eternal life inherited?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh you know what? I think we're talking semantics here. What you wrote above is exactly correct and what I meant. Let's see...

1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity

Ok, I was saved when I first believed. (justification)
I AM being saved right now. (Sanctification)
I will be saved at the end of my earthly life (glorification)

How is that different Brother?

My 3 "conditions" refer to WHEN one is given eternal life.

The 3 tenses of salvation don't even address WHEN one is given eternal life. The 3 tenses explain the difference between justificaiton, sanctification and glorification.

That is how they are quite different.

 

[FreeGrace]

Good to know, and since Jesus said many things, we must reconcile what He said

Oh, NO we don't have to any such thing.

What we MUST DO is BELIEVE everything He said. And it's not necessary to "reconcile" anything He said, since He never contradicted Himself, nor lied, nor was "just kidding".

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The condition: Hear my voice, know Him, follow Him, AND I give them eternal life.

Lecturing another about "reconciling everything" and then ignoring "what else" Jesus said about eternal life reveals a huge inconsistency.

v.27 does NOT, no matter how often or loudly one insists, provide the condition for Jesus giving eternal life.

The condition for possessing (meaning Jesus gives eternal life) is found in:
John 3:15 - "that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Possession of eternal life is a present possession on the basis of believing.
Since there are no verses specifying that eternal life is given any time AFTER initially believing, one an confidently conclude that the gift of eternal life is give WHEN one believes.

Now, consider John 10:28. Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

A clear statement of eternal security.

After the condition is fulfilled then the result will be given.
JLB

I will believe what Jesus said about who possesses eternal life. Whoever believes possesses eternal life. This occurs WHEN one believes, not at the end of one's life, as some have claimed.

Therefore, John 10:28 is a direct promise of eternal security.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

When is eternal life inherited?
JLB

Answered in my previous post. But I'm happy to answer it again, as it needs to be repeated.

Eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13

 

[Hermit]

...I posed 3 questions, none of which you've even addressed, much less answered...

I already have answered you questions in previous posts but you cannot see or hear. And this too won't be seen or heard for your heart is closed with fear and tension. Your posts are so tense you cannot see past the log in your own eye.

...Nothing there about trying to win the approval of others...

You cannot even see this; because it is not what you wrote, but why you write it.

Long time ago a spiritual mentor told me, "When you are insane, you don't know you are insane, because you are insane". It took me several years for me to understand this because I was insane. Your posts remind me of how I must have been to my mentor many years ago.

I will no longer reply to this thread. So please feel free to crucify me without fear of a response.

 

[Edward]

My 3 "conditions" refer to WHEN one is given eternal life.

The 3 tenses of salvation don't even address WHEN one is given eternal life. The 3 tenses explain the difference between justificaiton, sanctification and glorification.

That is how they are quite different.

Of course it does. We receive it at Justification. In the beginning when we are saved. Then, as long as we do not turn our backs on God...we keep it.

 

[Winter Tapioca]

That would be misrepresenting my post, since you will not find where I mentioned overcoming God's will.

The Gospel in and of itself does not save anyone.

The person must believe the Gospel in order to be saved.

It is up to each person who hears the Gospel, whether of not to believe the Gospel.

It's a choice for each of us to make.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish

God does not force anyone to believe, if He did then all would believe, since it is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

• not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Repentance is where the person who hears the Gospel must choose to repent or not.

• Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that you express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18
Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.


JLB[/QUOTE]Question: "What is the gospel?"

"The gospel is good news when we understand that we do not (and cannot) earn our salvation; the work of redemption and justification is complete, having been finished on the cross (John 19:30). Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2). The gospel is the good news that we, who were once enemies of God, have been reconciled by the blood of Christ and adopted into the family of God (Romans 5:10; John 1:12). “See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!” (1 John 3:1). The gospel is the good news that “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). "

The gospel does not save anyone. The good news speaks to how one achieves eternal salvation and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

I already have answered you questions in previous posts but you cannot see or hear. And this too won't be seen or heard for your heart is closed with fear and tension. Your posts are so tense you cannot see past the log in your own eye.

You cannot even see this; because it is not what you wrote, but why you write it.

Long time ago a spiritual mentor told me, "When you are insane, you don't know you are insane, because you are insane". It took me several years for me to understand this because I was insane. Your posts remind me of how I must have been to my mentor many years ago.

Thanks for insinuating that I am insane. Although I think that violates the TOS.

I will no longer reply to this thread. So please feel free to crucify me without fear of a response.

No, I think your posts have already done that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course it does. We receive it at Justification. In the beginning when we are saved.

Excellent. That would be #1.

Then, as long as we do not turn our backs on God...we keep it.

Oh, I see. Please direct me to the verse or passage that is clear about losing salvation/eternal life if one turns their back on God.

But I don't see any "as long as..." condition in what Jesus promises those He gives eternal life, which you acknowledge is "in the beginning, when we are saved". He said that those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

So, your view is different than what Jesus promised. is that not clear?

 

[JLB]

The Gospel in and of itself does not save anyone.

The person must believe the Gospel in order to be saved.

It is up to each person who hears the Gospel, whether of not to believe the Gospel.

It's a choice for each of us to make.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish

God does not force anyone to believe, if He did then all would believe, since it is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

• not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Repentance is where the person who hears the Gospel must choose to repent or not.

• Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that you express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18
Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.

Excellent post, I agree.

 

[JLB]

The gospel is the good news that “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). "

God loves us dearly, and sent His Son to suffer and die for our sins that we might be reconciled to Him, through faith in Christ Jesus and His blood that was shed for our sins.

Jesus didn't die on the cross so you and I would continue to live in bondage as a slave to sin and the devil, but He gives us His divine nature, empowered with His Spirit to live and reign in dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh.

This power of the Spirit is His grace; The Spirit of grace.

So now we have the right and the power to live our lives according to the godly desires of the Spirit, rather than the sinful desires of the flesh.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh

Those Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Answered in my previous post. But I'm happy to answer it again, as it needs to be repeated.

Eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13

No scripture here just your opinion.

Here is who will receive or inherit eternal life, word for word.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


We all must stand before Christ Jesus, on the Day of Judgement to be Judged according to our deeds.

• God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Jesus said the same thing. Everyone who comes forth from the grave on the Day of Judgement will give an account.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

JLB

 

[chessman]

I see this referenced often with regard to eternal salvation arguments but have never found where Scripture equates the love of Christ solely with salvation. Can you provide the Scripture reference that clearly defines the love of Jesus Christ as equal with salvation?

I can, but can you accept that it is???

Romans 8:35 (LEB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or hunger or lack of sufficient clothing or danger or the sword?​

All that is necessary to show that the phrase "love of Christ" is phrase referring to "us" as those who are saved (versus 'all people') is to determine who the 'us" and "we" is within the verse's context (not from our presuppositions of what Paul meant):

37 No, but in all these things we prevail completely through the one who loved us.​

Do you think 'all people' "prevail" or only the saved??? (obviously not all people prevail)

34 Who is the one who condemns? Christ...​

There are some people that are saved and there are some people that are condemned. The phrase is obviously not about universal love for mankind.

Romans 8 No Condemnation in Christ

Romans 8:32-33 (LEB)
32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, together with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies.​

The "us"/"we" is about God's elect, obviously. And oh, BTW "us all", not most of God's elect.

The CFNet SoF had this Romans 8 passage above (which is about "God's Elect") and Ephesians 1 in view. It's a copy of the Calvary Chapel SoF which references these passages as it's basis (Scriptural justification) for this statement:

http://www.calvarycch.org/beliefs.php

Eph 1:11 in whom also we were chosen (elected as in Rom 8:33), having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory, 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
​

This portion of the CFNet SoF is most obviously about salvation.

 

[JLB]

I can, but can you accept that it is???

Romans 8:35 (LEB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or hunger or lack of sufficient clothing or danger or the sword?​

All that is necessary to show that the phrase "love of Christ" is phrase referring to "us" as those who are saved (versus 'all people') is to determine who the 'us" and "we" is within the verse's context (not from our presuppositions of what Paul meant):

37 No, but in all these things we prevail completely through the one who loved us.​

Do you think 'all people' "prevail" or only the saved??? (obviously not all people prevail)

34 Who is the one who condemns? Christ...​

There are some people that are saved and there are some people that are condemned. The phrase is obviously not about universal love for mankind.

Romans 8 No Condemnation in Christ

Romans 8:32-33 (LEB)
32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, together with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies.​

The "us"/"we" is about God's elect, obviously. And oh, BTW "us all", not most of God's elect.

The CFNet SoF had this Romans 8 passage above (which is about "God's Elect") and Ephesians 1 in view. It's a copy of the Calvary Chapel SoF which references these passages as it's basis (Scriptural justification) for this statement:

Eph 1:11 in whom also we were chosen (elected as in Rom 8:33), having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory, 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
​

This portion of the CFNet SoF is most obviously about salvation.

Not even close.

God is love.


God loves unbelievers.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

• For God so loved the world

God loves even those He must send to hell, for even in the depths of hell people are not separated from the love of God.

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39



JLB