When does God put souls into bodies?

[Smiley_Elephant]

(Post removed, ToS 2.4 and violation of A&T Guidelines. Obadiah)

 

[Deborah13]

Is this why you started this thread . . . to justify abortion because you think an embryo or fetus or child in womb does not have a soul?

Where does the word say we Have a soul? To me it says we Are a living soul. That means we Are a human living soul. The word says that animals are living souls.
We are told we must not take the life of another human soul. But we are allowed to take the life of an animal soul.
But we are different in another way. We were created in God's image, no animal soul was.

 

[FreeGrace]

You never mention for the purpose of organ donation and considering what you said…

I believe that I did.

That would be the same as someone who is on a feeding tube and air supply, who can be a conscious thinking person….

Or a dead body, awaiting an organ transplant. ;)

Ahhh.....so if an EEG is not flat they are not dead. Bravo, I agree. So to you a living soul is one who has brain waves. I agree again, even if they are being supported by something/someone outside themselves for air and nourishment.

Seems an attempt to try to twist my words. My point is that there are life support machines that keep the physiological/biological life going for the purpose of organ donation. Just as the mother is the life support system for the fertilized egg, which becomes a zygote, then an embryo, and finally a fetus. Gestation is the preparation of a material body for an immaterial soul.

So it seems to me, that your sole support for your argument comes down to proving that in the womb the living body of a humankind or an animal kind does Not have brain waves while living in the environment of the womb.

Let's not focus on brain waves. When a human being dies, the EEG goes flat. That's my only point.

As far as when the EEG actually begins isn't the point or an issue. The point remains that God prepares a material body for the immaterial soul, as Gen 2:7 shows, and Jesus noted in Heb 10:5.

Until a fetus is developed enough to live outside the womb, the material body is NOT prepared. That is my point.

 

[FreeGrace]

Because someone is unaware of a purpose, does not exclude that there is a purpose. I can not answer your question because I lack an answer, as do you.

What question was asked that I did not answer, please.

You see chronological order; I see statements that may be simultaneous events.

I think the "may be" is rather thin. What is clear is that God formed man and THEN breathed into it. Not the other way around, which would support the soul at conception theory.

I am opposed to any approach to abortion, casual or otherwise! Again, your openness to non-casual abortion may lead to a third party justifying an abortion.

So, because a person might abuse the truth, we shouldn't teach or face the truth??? What about grace? That is abused all the time. But grace is true, nonetheless.

[QUTOE]The LORD chooses our days, not the husband. Does someone abort a child because of a 'high danger' of death to the wife? Kill the wife or kill the child! Sheesh![/QUOTE]
Are you not aware of the fact that there are medical conditions whereby carrying a child to term can and does kill the mother???? Yes, "sheesh" is right!

Can you know the end before something happens? The LORD is an expert at overcoming 'high danger' and improbabilities. Can you justify taking the life of an unborn child?

If your wife was told she was in very high danger of dying during childbirth, whose life would you rather save?

Is this why you started this thread . . . to justify abortion because you think an embryo or fetus or child in womb does not have a soul?

I've been very clear. My issue is that the fertilized egg cannot be a human being, and I've given Scripture that supports my view. Unlike the opposite view.

Your claim is false. I've also stated why abortion is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where does the word say we Have a soul? To me it says we Are a living soul. That means we Are a human living soul. The word says that animals are living souls.

So then, do all dogs go to heaven? lol

We are told we must not take the life of another human soul. But we are allowed to take the life of an animal soul.

Not actually. The Bible condemns murder, but not self defense or capital punishment.

But we are different in another way. We were created in God's image, no animal soul was.

Animals have physiological or biological life, NOT soul life. The soul of man is totally different than animal life. The soul of man is intellect, emotions, thoughts, etc. Animals have instinct.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't think anyone can answer to your satisfaction if scripture isn't enough for you.
The soul enters the body it is quickened in the spirit. It is alive.

And it would be great if an opportunist wouldn't be tolerated in leading this thread into the off topic of abortion.

What that scripture says to me is that God had to cause Adam, who was made from dirt, to come alive.
Adam was the only humankind that was made from dirt. Every other humankind including Eve was/is created from another human being. It is not the same process as how Adam was created. So how can we compare how Adam became a living soul, to how everyone else becomes a living soul?
That would be like going to the store and buying a cooked chicken, ready to eat, compared to cooking the chicken in ones own oven, not ready to eat. Either way the chicken is still a chicken, just one is not prepared yet.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe that I did.

Why don't you go read your post? Here it is. #266, click on it and read it yourself, just for the sake of honesty if nothing else.

A.

Seems an attempt to try to twist my words. My point is that there are life support machines that keep the physiological/biological life going for the purpose of organ donation. Just as the mother is the life support system for the fertilized egg, which becomes a zygote, then an embryo, and finally a fetus. Gestation is the preparation of a material body for an immaterial soul.

So what, if there are no brain waves the body is dead. You said so yourself.

Let's not focus on brain waves. When a human being dies, the EEG goes flat. That's my only point.

And a very good point it is, too.

As far as when the EEG actually begins isn't the point or an issue. The point remains that God prepares a material body for the immaterial soul, as Gen 2:7 shows, and Jesus noted in Heb 10:5.

Your very good point is an argument against your OP. So now you want to forget it?

 

[Obadiah]

I see this has drifted far away from the A&T guidelines and we are starting to see some personal insults as well. This is closed for moderator review and possible clean up.

 

[Obadiah]

I'm going to re-open this thread and see how it goes now. Everyone remember to follow the rules and guidelines including no personal attacks, no insults, and back up what you say by citing scripture to support it. Even if you think the scriptural support you have in your mind should be obvious to everyone else, cite the scripture anyway.

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

Jesus spoke in parables.
We all descend from Adam. We're mostly carbon and water. When Adam was imbued with the soul after he was formed by the breath of God, that tells me that when humans are formed in the womb they receive their souls so as to navigate this world when they take their breath by God's will once they're born into it.

Otherwise, they are there in the womb and if they had a soul then and the woman miscarried, or the baby was malformed due to some genetic abnormality, or they were aborted for that matter, that would mean an all knowing eternally present God, the same yesterday, today, and forever, and whom the scriptures tell us does not change, imbued fetus' with souls knowing they would die in utero.

And then what?

Return to their maker from whence they sprang. And that would make God the murderer of children, the universal abortionist, the sadist that puts a soul into a body his Gnosis is aware shall not live to be born. And for what? To return to God when God sent that soul in utero only to die?

(Edited: ToS 2.4, personal insult and disregarding a moderators instructions to avoid personal insults as well as failing to follow A&T guidelines. Obadiah.)

What that scripture says to me is that God had to cause Adam, who was made from dirt, to come alive.
Adam was the only humankind that was made from dirt. Every other humankind including Eve was/is created from another human being. It is not the same process as how Adam was created. So how can we compare how Adam became a living soul, to how everyone else becomes a living soul?
That would be like going to the store and buying a cooked chicken, ready to eat, compared to cooking the chicken in ones own oven, not ready to eat. Either way the chicken is still a chicken, just one is not prepared yet.

 

[Deborah13]

So then, do all dogs go to heaven? lol

Are dog's created in the image of God?

Not actually. The Bible condemns murder, but not self defense or capital punishment.

True statement.

Animals have physiological or biological life, NOT soul life. The soul of man is totally different than animal life. The soul of man is intellect, emotions, thoughts, etc. Animals have instinct.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living soul after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Your argument is with God's word not any person's words. We've been here before, these are the saame Hebrew words used for both animals and people. I just added another scripture to my argument. Can you refute it?
BUT mankind, is made in the image of our creator.

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

(Post removed. ToS 2.14: "If a member disagrees with a Moderator's action, they are not to take their dispute public." Obadiah.)

 

[FreeGrace]

Are dog's created in the image of God?

This dodges my question, begged from your claim; that animals have souls. So, do all dogs go to heaven?

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living soul after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Your argument is with God's word not any person's words.

I don't have an argument. I have the OP. Others have been arguing with me, but without any substantive evidence to back up their arguments. Mostly it's just been a lot of vigorous disagreement.

We've been here before, these are the saame Hebrew words used for both animals and people. I just added another scripture to my argument. Can you refute it?

As I just said, this is my OP and thread. I've made a point, and backed it up with Scripture. It's to those who disagree who are encumbered to provide refutation of my OP.

BUT mankind, is made in the image of our creator.

Yes, he is, but the Bible says that all souls come from God and return to God.

Eccl 12:7 then the dust [biological life] will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [soul life] will return to God who gave it.

So my question: do all dogs go to heaven?

 

[Deborah13]

This dodges my question, begged from your claim; that animals have souls. So, do all dogs go to heaven?

It's hardly a claim that I make. I gave you the scripture that says animals ARE, not have, living souls.
Scripture doesn't say but I would not think so. The scripture never says they are spirit or made in the image of God.

 

[jasonc]

It's hardly a claim that I make. I gave you the scripture that says animals ARE, not have, living souls.
Scripture doesn't say but I would not think so. The scripture never says they are spirit or made in the image of God.

Deborah is arguing that the Hebrew word for nephesh(soul) is that which breathes. the animals do breathe. they then have a soul. doesn't mean they are of the same type of soul we have.frankly that is my position. it has been since. just disagreeing on what word she uses.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah is arguing that the Hebrew word for nephesh(soul) is that which breathes. the animals do breathe. they then have a soul. doesn't mean they are of the same type of soul we have.frankly that is my position. it has been since. just disagreeing on what word she uses.

I not saying they Have a soul. I am saying they Are a living soul. They are a living being. Man is also a living soul. But...
You disagree with the word I use? Which word?

 

[jasonc]

I not saying they Have a soul. I am saying they Are a living soul. They are a living being. Man is also a living soul. But...
You disagree with the word I use? Which word?

nephesh Chaya, is the word used for and adam became a living soul.

that is only used for man. the word nephesh means that which breathes. i hope see that. if you were to say soul for that word, then adam was a living soul? you could given jewish thought, as we are a soul, but they and i think that is describing the aspect of the soul in totalalty. he became a soul that was alive and having the nature of HIM who made him.

 

[Deborah13]

nephesh Chaya, is the word used for and adam became a living soul.

that is only used for man. the word nephesh means that which breathes. i hope see that. if you were to say soul for that word, then adam was a living soul? you could given jewish thought, as we are a soul, but they and i think that is describing the aspect of the soul in totalalty. he became a soul that was alive and having the nature of HIM who made him.

Please post a version of a Hebrew Bible that does not use the word nephesh for both the soul of man and the soul of animal. Chaya simply means life or living.
Strong's says both verses say "nephesh chay."
Jewish Publication Society - JPS and Mechon-Mamre.org - the Masoretic Text
Gen_1:30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food.' And it was so.
ל וּלְכָל-חַיַּת הָאָרֶץ וּלְכָל-עוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם וּלְכֹל רוֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-בּוֹ נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה, אֶת-כָּל-יֶרֶק עֵשֶׂב, לְאָכְלָה; וַיְהִי-כֵן.
Gen_2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
ז וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם, עָפָר מִן-הָאֲדָמָה, וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו, נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים; וַיְהִי הָאָדָם, לְנֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה.

Have you learned Hebrew yet. :biggrin I sure wish you'd get busy. I've figured these out before but it is really time consuming for me. I don't have time right now, maybe later.

 

[OzSpen]

Where does the word say we Have a soul? To me it says we Are a living soul. That means we Are a human living soul. The word says that animals are living souls.
We are told we must not take the life of another human soul. But we are allowed to take the life of an animal soul.
But we are different in another way. We were created in God's image, no animal soul was.

Deborah,

What do you think Matthew 10:28 (ESV) means? 'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell'.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah,

What do you think Matthew 10:28 (ESV) means? 'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell'.

I think we are spirit, soul, and body. Just like Paul said.
1Th_5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

All I want to prove is that from the moment of conception a new, living, human soul/being exists.
God's words don't seem to matter, scientist's/doctors words don't seem to matter....

EDIT: In fact, I would connect the Matthew scripture very closely to this...
Heb 4:11 May we be diligent, then, to enter into that rest, that no one in the same example of the unbelief may fall,
Heb 4:12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;